Article: Audiophile Style State of the Union

[The Computer Audiophile]

View full article

[mansr]

I'd like a little clarification on the new rules. Would my answer in the thread linked below be allowed?

 

Is all rational thought now forbidden outside the "reservation"?

[JDoyle]

Please think about this... How can your forum make Computer Audio easier to understand for those who want it, but just don’t understand it and need help with getting it.

 

JD

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, JDoyle said:

Please think about this... How can your forum make Computer Audio easier to understand for those who want it, but just don’t understand it and need help with getting it.

 

JD

Hi JD, the same way it always has. Perhaps I don't follow your question?

[The Computer Audiophile]

5 minutes ago, mansr said:

I'd like a little clarification on the new rules. Would my answer in the thread linked below be allowed?

 

Is all rational thought now forbidden outside the "reservation"?

 

Clarification is always good. 

 

In your specific example, the information you provided was great. There was no snark, combativeness, imposition, confrontation, or belittling. You weren't seeking to save someone from themself or seeking to just be a disrupter. The OP clearly appreciated your answer as well. 

 

Life isn't black & white. As much as people would love hard and fast rules around here, they just can't be made to fit all circumstances. My guess is that you are well aware of the types of posts from both objectivists and subjectivists that derail threads and ruin people's enjoyment. The new Objective-Fi sub-forum will alleviate this. You specifically, won't have to deal with Sandyk's diatribes about bit identical files and he won't have to deal with your terse replies. 

 

 

 

 

[jcn3]

@The Computer Audiophile - I think this is a great move. I agree that AS has become a bit less fun recently and the number of threads I'm ignoring has jumped as a result. 

 

I suggest you move this sub-forum up under the general forum. I think adoption of the new forum will be lower with it down at the bottom of Equipme NH t.

[Iving]

28 minutes ago, mansr said:

Is all rational thought now forbidden outside the "reservation"?

 

It's implicit in this remark that someone who enjoys their music and their equipment "subjectively" - and wants to do that collegiately with other similar-minded audiophiles free of unsolicited challenge - is incapable of "rational thought". That's both snark and absurd. You are far too intelligent to avoid appreciating what I'm saying.

[austinpop]

This is a much appreciated step, Chris. I sincerely hope this increases the collegiality of the discussion.

 

My hope is that it allows us to persuade our friends who’ve left AS due to the negativity - we all know someone like that - to come back and participate and contribute again.

[Allan F]

1 hour ago, Iving said:

You are far too intelligent to avoid appreciating what I'm saying.

 

Unfortunately, intelligence and empathy are not necessarily related. Just look to Washington, DC, if you need any proof. 

[Iving]

16 minutes ago, Allan F said:

 

Unfortunately, intelligence and empathy are not necessarily related. Just look to Washington, DC, if you need any proof. 

 

Perhaps ... but they are positively and highly correlated in my case. And that's all I care about 🙃.

[Allan F]

8 minutes ago, Iving said:

Perhaps ... but they are positively and highly correlated in my case.

 

I most certainly agree that, ideally, they should be. Moreover, without much effort, they can be.

[Iving]

8 minutes ago, Allan F said:

 

I most certainly agree that, ideally, they should be. Moreover, without much effort, they can be.

 

Agreed! It's most satisfying when we bring out the best in each other 🥳

[kumakuma]

I have to say that I'm not a fan of this change.

 

This place is interesting because you have folks with radically different viewpoints interacting with each other.

 

Your creation of an objectivist containment zone sends the message that objectivists are second class citizens here. 

 

I also believe it will turn this place into an echo chamber for subjectivists and cause valuable contributors like Mans to move on to other more welcoming places.

 

The fact that the subjectivists are lining up to pat you on the back for making this change suggests I'm right.

 

[Account Closed]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

This is a much appreciated step, Chris. I sincerely hope this increases the collegiality of the discussion.

 

My hope is that it allows us to persuade our friends who’ve left AS due to the negativity - we all know someone like that - to come back and participate and contribute again.

I hope you are right that it brings back those who have left. I left on and off for quite a while but finally decided to avoid almost all topics except those of immediate interest. I used to try to offer help and advice but rarely do so any longer. I hope this works and isn't a case of too little too late. The type of behavior Chris is trying to tamp down has destroyed websites both in audio and elsewhere. I really would like to see a return to the early days style of then CA. Fingers crossed!

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, kumakuma said:

I have to say that I'm not a fan of this change.

 

This place is interesting because you have folks with radically different viewpoints interacting with each other.

 

Your creation of an objectivist containment zone sends the message that objectivists are second class citizens here. 

 

I also believe it will turn this place into an echo chamber for subjectivists and cause valuable contributors like Mans to move on to other more welcoming places.

 

The fact that the subjectivists are lining up to pat you on the back for making this change suggests I'm right.

 

Thanks for the feedback, but I think the facts don't backup your suggestion. 

 

For example, the very first response to this change is ...

 

2 hours ago, mansr said:

Is all rational thought now forbidden outside the "reservation"?

 

Comments like this are the main reason why the change was necessary. I also pointed out Mansr's reply he asked about as being a great example of a helpful exchange. If you like  snark, combativeness, imposition, confrontation, or belittling, then you may be disappointment with this change. 

 

If you like keeping SandyK out of a purely objective thread, then you may like this change. 

 

Subjectivists are likely happy because not they can have fun without  snark, combativeness, imposition, confrontation, or belittling. When objectivists couldn't police themselves and stop their own rude behavior, changes were necessary. 

 

Nothing is off topic here on AS. But, there is a right place and time for everything. I don't see why you should care if people like to talk amongst others who have the same passions and beliefs. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, bobflood said:

The type of behavior Chris is trying to tamp down has destroyed websites both in audio and elsewhere.

Agree 100%. This isn't an audio thing, but it's a people thing. Some people just can't live and let live. On all sides of every issue we have this problem. Letting a small few ruin it for everyone else isn't a winning approach, but it's the approach taken by many websites who have disabled comments and eschewed all comments from anyone other than the Ministers of Information.  

[kumakuma]

1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Subjectivists are likely happy because not they can have fun without  snark, combativeness, imposition, confrontation, or belittling. When objectivists couldn't police themselves and stop their own rude behavior, changes were necessary. 

 

In my opinion, you are attempting to put folks into boxes and treat them all the same.

 

The fundamental issue here isn't that Alex is a subjectivist. It is that he can be rude and you've never punished him for his bad behavior. 

 

The same applies to me and others. The problem isn't that we are objectivists or subjectivists but that we can be assholes on occasion and you've allowed us to get away with it.

[Iving]

Just now, kumakuma said:

The problem isn't that we are objectivists or subjectivists but that we can be assholes on occasion and you've allowed us to get away with it.

 

never say die

[The Computer Audiophile]

4 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

In my opinion, you are attempting to put folks into boxes and treat them all the same.

 

The fundamental issue here isn't that Alex is a subjectivist. It is that he can be rude and you've never punished him for his bad behavior. 

 

The same applies to me and others. The problem isn't that we are objectivists or subjectivists but that we can be assholes on occasion and you've allowed us to get away with it.

 

I've given many people warnings and temporary bans, but to no avail. 

 

Your logic seems to go like this - Please don't do this or people will go away. But, you haven't punished people (made them go away) so they will keep it up. 

 

It's hard to follow. There is no silver bullet. Many people don't want to talk to each other. Now they can talk amongst those who they enjoy without issues. I don't see why this is such a hard pill to swallow. 

[firedog]

People need to realize there's a difference between a thread (like the DLNA thread referenced above) where the OP asks for info/opinion and is clearly asking for all points of view, or a thread  where the OP says something like, "do you think USB cables can make a difference?", as opposed to a thread where the topic is "USB cable comparisons". In the latter, the OP clearly isn't asking to be told that there isn't a difference between cables and cables can't possibly make a difference.
 

In the first type of thread all points of view are welcome, in the second the objectivists clearly aren't welcome, especially if they want to be snarky. I don't really think this is rocket science.

[marioed]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the change. I'm sure some will be unhappy with it but overall I'll be optimistic that it will improve civility. While I don't post often, I do read and keep up with many of the threads. There have been a couple of instances recently where I wanted to add some of my thoughts to a few threads but didn't because of the threads had descended into the same old arguments.

Regards,

Mario 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, firedog said:

People need to realize there's a difference between a thread (like the DLNA thread referenced above) where the OP asks for info/opinion and is clearly asking for all points of view, or a thread  where the OP says something like, "do you think USB cables can make a difference?", as opposed to a thread where the topic is "USB cable comparisons". In the latter, the OP clearly isn't asking to be told that there isn't a difference between cables and cables can't possibly make a difference.
 

In the first type of thread all points of view are welcome, in the second the objectivists clearly aren't welcome, especially if they want to be snarky. I don't really think this is rocket science.

+1000000000000000000

[kumakuma]

1 minute ago, firedog said:

People need to realize there's a difference between a thread (like the DLNA thread referenced above) where the OP asks for info/opinion and is clearly asking for all points of view, or a thread  where the OP says something like, "do you think USB cables can make a difference?", as opposed to a thread where the topic is "USB cable comparisons". In the latter, the OP clearly isn't asking to be told that there isn't a difference between cables and cables can't possibly make a difference.
 

In the first type of thread all points of view are welcome, in the second the objectivists clearly aren't welcome, especially if they want to be snarky. I don't really think this is rocket science.

 

I agree.

 

Perhaps there just needs to be a better way for those starting threads to indicate what kinds of opinions they welcome.

[firedog]

1 minute ago, kumakuma said:

 

I agree.

 

Perhaps there just needs to be a better way for those starting threads to indicate what kinds of opinions they welcome.

The obvious solution would be for people to just clearly state it in the opening post.

In the past that hasn't worked: I remember a couple of threads where the OP specifically made such a plea and was ignored, sometimes even when asking a second time.

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

I agree.

 

Perhaps there just needs to be a better way for those starting threads to indicate what kinds of opinions they welcome.

Don't you think it's obvious in most cases? Serious question.