Article: Audiophile Style State of the Union

[mansr]

22 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

You look at it as banished, I look at it as being given your own space.

The creators of Jewish ghettos might have said the same thing.

[wgscott]

Maybe it would be a goodwill gesture to allow those of us who are no longer welcome to have the right to delete our content before our eagerly-anticipated departure.

[esmit]

I prefer a goodwill gesture above a Godwin gesture. 

[marce]

This has been going on for months now, a once lively forum has become a dull place where only the correct viewpoint is acceptable... Why do some subjective beliefs and claims have to be defended so vigorously one wonders... 

[wgscott]

4 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

 

My hope is that it allows us to persuade our friends who’ve left AS due to the negativity - we all know someone like that - to come back and participate and contribute again.

 

Like Michael Lavorgna?  

 

At least he gets the satisfaction of knowing his idea of what the site should be has ultimately prevailed.

 

 

[kumakuma]

59 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 As I said in the article, audio is inherently a subjective pursuit.

 

Is it or is that just the approach that many, but not all, take to the hobby?

[wgscott]

10 minutes ago, marce said:

This has been going on for months now, a once lively forum has become a dull place where only the correct viewpoint is acceptable... Why do some subjective beliefs and claims have to be defended so vigorously one wonders... 

 

Advertisers don't like how some people think.

[Ralf11]

Advertisers don't like that some people think.

[NOMBEDES]

Oh man.  I find all of this division hard to believe.  Very few people can even hear the difference between red book and high rez.  Does anyone think that a personal viewpoint on the subjective objective question makes any difference to how enjoyable a well recorded LP, Disc or Stream is in your listening room?

 

The subjective/objective controversy is just another demonstration that the internet is responsible for the decline of western civilization.  Russian trolls pump hate and division into American (western) discourse on a full time basis.  China has hacked millions of records pertaining to our citizens (Concentration camps for Chinese ethnic populations are just test beds for a very dark future).  The internet has overturned every rock and released all manner of evil.  I would hope we could leave music out of it.

 

Audiophile! heal yourself.

 

 

[Enjay]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 As I said in the article, audio is inherently a subjective pursuit.

I've always thought of music as art and our subjective responses to it, but audio as engineering.

 

I've been reading this forum for a couple of years now and gained much knowledge from it without feeling the need to post. I mostly ignore what I would consider to be the woo elements (apart from when some new topic seems really strange to my eyes) and have no problem with people discussing their subjective impressions on subjects such as cables; as you have said many times, people are free to enjoy their hobby and spend their money as they like.  That said, I was fascinated by the thread regarding the testing conducted by Mani and Mansr - where would such a thread reside?

[ricko01]

There are basically three types of posters/users: the die hard regulars, the casual information seekers and the lurkers (who dont post)

 

Most of the issues I suggest tend to be with the die hards so why not allow a user to have a "no post" list on their profile so that any thread they start wont by "crapped on" by people they historically have an issue with.

 

This wont be an issue for the casual information seeker as they wont have any experience with "thread crappers" and will generally get answers to their questions anyway.

 

Lurkers (like myself) dont care (in fact we enjoy the back and forth) but it will allow the die hard regulars to have crap free threads.

 

Peter

[The Computer Audiophile]

47 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

Is it or is that just the approach that many, but not all, take to the hobby?

 

Liking something is subjective. I'm guessing people listen to music because they like it or like the way it sounds or there is some subjective reason why they pursue music and audio. If people don't think audio is an inherently subjective pursuit, there is always Hydrogen Audio where nothing subjective is allowed. 

 

How could one take the approach that audio / HiFi as a hobby is inherently objective? If you look at graphs and charts only, then yes I get it. But, if you listen to music for enjoyment that's subjective. 

 

Please don't think I'm saying anything related to how components are designed and the masterful work done by people like Mitch using DSP and measurements to improve my room. I'm not. I am saying that in the end I listen as a subjective pursuit for of entertainment. 

 

 

 

 

21 minutes ago, Enjay said:

I've always thought of music as art and our subjective responses to it, but audio as engineering.

 

I've been reading this forum for a couple of years now and gained much knowledge from it without feeling the need to post. I mostly ignore what I would consider to be the woo elements (apart from when some new topic seems really strange to my eyes) and have no problem with people discussing their subjective impressions on subjects such as cables; as you have said many times, people are free to enjoy their hobby and spend their money as they like.  That said, I was fascinated by the thread regarding the testing conducted by Mani and Mansr - where would such a thread reside?

 

Of course engineering is involved. People are taking this way over the top and thinking I am anti-engineering for some reason. I'm anti-fighting when this is supposed to be fun. Providing a space for both parties to discuss topics is idea. That is, if both parties really want to discuss what they say they want to discuss. 

 

Life is gray. We will find out where to place specific threads in due time. nobody is going to get banned for good faith attempts at anything. 

[Ralf11]

It is not about music at all, or preferences thereof.  It IS about how to reproduce recorded music with electronic and mechanical devices to get the best SQ (or some euphonic distortion, such as tubey goodness).

 

Censoring factual comments move this site FURTHER from that goal, not closer.

 

But perhaps I mistake your actual goal in running this site?

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, Ralf11 said:

It is not about music at all, or preferences thereof.  It IS about how to reproduce recorded music with electronic and mechanical devices to get the best SQ (or some euphonic distortion, such as tubey goodness).

 

Censoring factual comments move this site FURTHER from that goal, not closer.

 

But perhaps I mistake your actual goal in running this site?

Stop with the made up fake news that anything is being censored. 

[audiobomber]

14 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

If people don't think audio is an inherently subjective pursuit, there is always Hydrogen Audio where nothing subjective is allowed. 

Or Audio Science Review.

 

I believe that DIYAudio is the model for objectivist/subjectivist tolerance. Both are present in large numbers. Opinions and counter-opinions are aired frequently, and the thread moves on. There is a pretty noticeable moderator presence.

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, audiobomber said:

Audio Science Review

That place is very far from an objective pursuit of HiFi. But, I encourage people to have fun there if it's more their style. 

[kumakuma]

25 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Liking something is subjective. I'm guessing people listen to music because they like it or like the way it sounds or there is some subjective reason why they pursue music and audio. If people don't think audio is an inherently subjective pursuit, there is always Hydrogen Audio where nothing subjective is allowed. 

 

How could one take the approach that audio / HiFi as a hobby is inherently objective? If you look at graphs and charts only, then yes I get it. But, if you listen to music for enjoyment that's subjective. 

 

Please don't think I'm saying anything related to how components are designed and the masterful work done by people like Mitch using DSP and measurements to improve my room. I'm not. I am saying that in the end I listen as a subjective pursuit for of entertainment. 

 

 

The act of listening itself may be subjective but I'm talking about the process of getting to this point through the selection of components to buy, things to test, etc., all of which can be approached in various different ways.

[audiobomber]

14 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

That place is very far from an objective pursuit of HiFi. But, I encourage people to have fun there if it's more their style. 

ASR is another example of a place "where nothing subjective is allowed".

[Allan F]

2 hours ago, mansr said:

The creators of Jewish ghettos might have said the same thing.

 

To compare the relatively trivial differences of opinion regarding the contents of an online audio forum to the scourge of anti-Semitism is, IMO, insulting, insensitive, outrageous and completely inappropriate. The analogy is a most egregious example of the application of Godwin's law or its philosophical equivalent.

[rn701]

This could have all been solved with some simple, inexpensive room treatments.

 

 

[DuckToller]

3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

+1000000000000000000

Chris,
I am far away from being a hard core objectivist and I symphatise with a lot of subjective experiences, but there are some concerns that occur to me: 
If I am not mistaken, there are (theoretically) three sub genres at present in the forum : 
objective - mixed zone - subjective.
How do the members avoid having the "mixed zone" threads derailed by either wing???

From the announced construct - in the way I've understood this - there seems to be only one way for any unintentional objectivity surfacing from an "undefined" mixed zone that is included in the mainly subjective Top-forum -> down to the Objective-Fi section. Please correct me if I misunderstood the process.
Maybe that is the best solution for the time being; however it looks a bit flawed, imho.

Who will control that posting portage and is it intended to be a service initiated by denouncing from "concerned" members? Or rephrased, how can people avoid to be constantly "sub-graded" with their contribution or the threads they started, when there is no per se defined cease-fire zone inviting both wings to fruitful and controversial discussions?
Please look at that as a serious technical concern.
In Germany there is nowadays a reflex to denounce serious, critical and sometimes objective presentation of information (usually starting just a toddler's feet left from the right wing) immediately as "Lügenpresse".
This is a sign of the times and rather a serious concern than a joke.
As much as I agree at the objective part of your analysis; I can't say that I have confidence in the most visible actors of the other wing. From my personal experience with human nature, appealing to some member's civility for that precise case would somehow castrate their subliminal feeling of gaining back control and winning...

[DuckToller]

3 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

 

That's not it. I was following up on your answer to Mans, and it made little sense to me in the context of what you described. Sorry if I tried to use some humor to illustrate the point.

 

To restate: is it OK to have objectively-sourced information posted in the subjective area of the forum? Ever? Or can it be done but only without snark? Or only if the subjective audience doesn't mind the answer? And is it the whole audience, at least 10 readers, or any one who complains that triggers the move to Objective-Fi? When and how is the decision made that an answer doesn't qualify for the subjective part of the forum?

+1

[wgscott]

23 minutes ago, Allan F said:

 

To compare the relatively trivial differences of opinion regarding the contents of an online audio forum to anti-Semitism, in general, and/or the Holocaust, in particular, is insulting, insensitive, outrageous and completely inappropriate. The analogy is a most egregious example of the application of Godwin's law or its equivalent.

 

Maybe this is because you (deliberately) misunderstood his analogy.

[Allan F]

2 minutes ago, wgscott said:

Maybe this is because you (deliberately) misunderstood his analogy.

 

I understood it only too well and that is why I reacted so strongly. Maybe you need a history lesson.

[skatbelt]

What is the equivalent of Nancy Pelosi's action in this context?

 

More serious. It's good that you do address these issues, Chris. At the same time I think it is a shame it's needed. And I am curious if it will have effect. Feels a bit contrived.