UpTone Audio EtherREGEN Listening Impressions

[pkane2001]

4 hours ago, Superdad said:

The problem I have with them--aside from the snide remarks, defamation, and follow-the-leader sycophantry--is the general lack of intellectual curiosity.

 

I guess you have to be on the other side to see the irony of this statement, Alex. What distinguishes scientific curiosity is the method of validating the proposed theories, not the invention of new ones. An 11th century court magician would say that the 21st century scientists lack "intellectual curiosity" since they refuse to try magic.

 

I'm available to respond to follow-ups on ASR, or on another general thread here, on AS since this is OT here.

[Jud]

20 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

I guess you have to be on the other side to see the irony of this statement, Alex. What distinguishes scientific curiosity is the method of validating the proposed theories, not the invention of new ones. An 11th century court magician would say that the 21st century scientists lack "intellectual curiosity" since they refuse to try magic.

 

I'm available to respond to follow-ups on ASR, or on another general thread here, on AS since this is OT here.

Apologies for continuing the OT, and Alex may have to clean all this up or move it:

 

Paul, I think it was fair comment in this particular instance based on the quote that said it was unnecessary to inquire into the design or theory of operation or measure.

 

Whether a design is obvious snake oil (cables treated by “quantum tunneling;” “grounding boxes” filled with sand and rocks) or merits at least some evaluation is to some extent inevitably subjective. I put a theory that says there is a mechanism whereby upstream clocking can act on the DAC’s input circuitry in the speculative but perhaps not physically impossible category, and thus worth abeyance of hard conclusions until measurements are forthcoming or not.

[lmitche]

10 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

I guess you have to be on the other side to see the irony of this statement, Alex. What distinguishes scientific curiosity is the method of validating the proposed theories, not the invention of new ones. An 11th century court magician would say that the 21st century scientists lack "intellectual curiosity" since they refuse to try magic.

 

I'm available to respond to follow-ups on ASR, or on another general thread here, on AS since this is OT here.

To be fair to Alex, he used the phrase "intellectual curiosity" not "scientific curiosity". As you say, they have different meanings.  Do you mean to disparage intellectual curiosity?

[pkane2001]

1 minute ago, lmitche said:

To be fair to Alex, he used the phrase "intellectual curiosity" not "scientific curiosity". As you say, they have different meanings.  Do you mean to disparage intellectual curiosity?

 

You're right. Scientific discovery is driven by intellectual curiosity. But the reason scientific method was invented was that just the intellectual curiosity turned out to be insufficient to form a successful predictive model of the real world. 

[lmitche]

12 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

predictive model

Or explanatory?

[pkane2001]

4 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Or explanatory?

 

Explanatory model is not sufficient if it lacks predictive power. Magic is an explanatory model.

[lmitche]

18 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Explanatory model is not sufficient if it lacks predictive power. Magic is an explanatory model.

Of course, but you argue from the extreme.

 

In the case of audio, I am interested in explanatory models for what I observe. If that explanation leads to a model with predictive power, the quality of those predictions tell me if the explanatory model is useful. But without the explanatory model further progress is difficult.

[Superdad]

2 hours ago, Iving said:

Worked in my system straight out of the box: PC > Cisco > ER > RedNet D16 AES > DAC.

 

Happy to know that the EtherREGEN is playing nice with Focusrite Dante Rednet. Now we just need a user to confim that AES67/Ravenna with a Merging Hapi or NADAC also does okay with our switch’s 100Mbps ‘B’-side limit.

 

2 hours ago, Iving said:

I emphasise. This is an audiophile device punching above its weight. Many congratulations to Alex and John. You've done a great job.

 

Many thanks Iving. It is gratifying for us to receive positive feedback from so many experienced audiophiles who are installing the EtherREGEN into already highly refined systems.

[nonesup]

2 hours ago, Darryl R said:

Because I was close to pulling the trigger on a hi-end server, like for instance the Pink Faun 2.16x, and I don't think I will now, I asked John a few questions about those touted enhancements like, for instance, motherboard clocks.  Since he was kind enough to give me some of his valuable time, I thought I'd share his response here so we all can start to better understand the phenomena (except, of course, for those of you who already know it all).  It's an extension of what he and Alex have been telling us:

 

My paper will really go into all this in much better detail ... In a nutshell, each device has its own clock phase noise, the phase noise from upstream devices can "overlay" the phase noise of the local clock. Making the local clock better stops being useful when the overlay is much greater than the local clock phase noise. So in some situations doing things like putting really good clocks on a motherboard may help, but it may not.

 

The EtherREGEN gets rid of all this so upstream stuff like that doesn't really matter. The only clocks that really matter are the renderer AFTER the EtherREGEN and the DAC fed by that. THOSE two WILL benefit from lower clock phase noise, no matter how you get it there, whether it is built in or coming from some external source. Because the EtherREGEN interrupts the clock over laying process, you can clearly hear the differences in clocks in the downstream devices.

 

So if the external clock is feeding the NUC feeding the DAC, yes, that is a good thing, if it is feeding the motherboard of the server feeding the EtherREGEN, probably not worthwhile.

 

I know these concepts seem weird and not what other people are talking about, but the intent of the paper is to really get down to the nitty gritty about how all this happens and what the EtherREGEN does about it.

 

John Swenson

That's why I hope that John and Alex will ever decide to build a super ISO Regen, with electronic moat technology.

[pkane2001]

36 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Of course, but you argue from the extreme.

 

In the case of audio, I am interested in explanatory models for what I observe. If that explanation leads to a model with predictive power, the quality of those predictions tell me if the model is useful. But without the explanatory model further innovation is difficult.

 

I agree, the explanatory model is a necessary first step. But just like with the intellectual curiosity, it is not enough by itself. If a new explanation conflicts with known validated models, it must have at least as good a predictive power as the existing models, otherwise it can't replace them.

 

Folks at ASR can be brutal on anyone who proposes just an explanation, especially one that conflicts with other established models. But hey, it's not like that's very different from the reaction here to the posts on ASR

[dminches]

Folks, let's try to stick to listening experiences...

 

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, pkane2001 said:

 

I agree, the explanatory model is a necessary first step. But just like with the intellectual curiosity, it is not enough by itself. If a new explanation conflicts with known validated models, it must have at least as good a predictive power as the existing models, otherwise it can't replace them.

 

Folks at ASR can be brutal on anyone who proposes just an explanation, especially one that conflicts with other established models. But hey, it's not like that's very different from the reaction here to the posts on ASR

Ok good, so we can say that before Newton published his universal law of gravity one could observe that apples fell from trees. We can also say that before this explanation we could predict that apples fell from trees. And so, while the explanation exposed the underlying power laws, etc . . . one could both observe and predict the behavior of apples falling from trees long before the explanation existed.

 

This is what is strange about ASR. Alex makes the point that ASR people don't seem open to observation of audio system behaviors that can't be explained or measured, despite being observable or predictable. After all, apples didn't start falling from trees the moment Newton's law was written down. What's going to happen if the equivalent of Newtons law of audio is published and supported by measurements. At that point ASR people will be able to hear the differences between components?

 

OK, OK, I'm done.

 

 

 

[stevebythebay]

Hmmm.  Are these guys members of the Flat Earth Society?  Putting up walls only hides the greater reality, though it does create a static one, protecting a "world view" that will never expand.  A lot like the environment in which Galileo found himself.

[pkane2001]

22 minutes ago, stevebythebay said:

Hmmm.  Are these guys members of the Flat Earth Society?  Putting up walls only hides the greater reality, though it does create a static one, protecting a "world view" that will never expand.  A lot like the environment in which Galileo found himself.

 

All they are asking for is any kind of objective evidence to support the claims or explanations proposed here. That's how real science works. Blind faith that one's perception and senses are infallible is the direct equivalent of a flat earther, whose world view is rooted in this exact belief.

[Puma Cat]

6 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

All they are asking for is any kind of objective evidence to support the claims or explanations proposed here. That's how real science works. Blind faith that one's perception and senses are infallible is the direct equivalent of a flat earther, whose world view is rooted in this exact belief.

There are lots of things that we know to be real that reductionist science cannot explain.

 

For example, the sensation of being stared at....

 

Continuing with the science theme, Physics has no particle that that fits with the Standard Model  for gravity...but we all know that gravity is real. 

[PYP]

3 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

All they are asking for is any kind of objective evidence to support the claims or explanations proposed here. That's how real science works. Blind faith that one's perception and senses are infallible is the direct equivalent of a flat earther, whose world view is rooted in this exact belief.

 

Can we take this "discussion" elsewhere?  Of course, I want to add my two cents first.  😀  And that is there are well-known and respected audio designers who design by measurement, but who say that it is clear they hear distinctions that they cannot measure yet.  I believe that is what Alex was talking about when he mentioned having an open mind.  

 

[Superdad]

16 minutes ago, lmitche said:

This is what is strange about ASR. Alex makes the point that ASR people don't seem open to observation of audio system behaviors that can't be explained.

 

Except that this stuff can be explained—and John has done so in bits and pieces over the years. But some are not interested in discussing the mechanisms and prefer to call it all foolery. They conveniently forget the fact that John spent 30 years as a senior engineer designing the power networks inside the chips that go into all this stuff. The effects of deterministic jitter on the ground/power planes and inside the chips themselves is NOT some fanciful new concept; it is dealt with all the time in high-speed circuits and silicon devices.

 

A couple of months ago it became clear to us that we (well John writing and me editing) need to produce a “white paper”—which starts with some basics so lay-folk can follow—explaining the mechanisms by which leakage, jitter, and power supplies in upstream components can and do affect what goes on inside a DAC.

 

We know that measurement proof to go along with the words will go a long way towards showing people this is real. (Though I am sure the closed-minded will find a way to dismiss whatever we present.)

For a couple of years John has been working on and off on a sensitive and sophisticated mult-board instrumentation system that would inject a jitter marker far upstream and show it at the analog output of a DAC (after running through a precision ADC and wavelet analysis s/w)—and then to put isolation techniques in place and compare. We’ve spoken about this before.

Yet due to time constraints (product engineering and other life demands) and the need to completely redo the main board for the system (based on some issues learned about critical clock buffer chips) John’s “Golden Gate Bridge/Clock Block system has been put on hold for now. Instead, John recently acquired one of the most sensitive timing analysis systems ever built, the Wavecrest DTS-2079. He just received the boards he designed and the parts to populate them to create the required input module so he can use the system for measurement of jitter and noise on the I2S lines inside DACs. And he will be able to produce comparative graphs with variables like EtherREGEN and other thinkgs upstream.

While these will not be measures at the analog output of the DAC that the skeptics demand, I feel stongly that showing differences on the I2S lines inside a DAC will be every bit as valid in proving the existence of these effects and the efficacy of the technology we are employing. 

[thyname]

17 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

All they are asking for is any kind of objective evidence to support the claims or explanations proposed here

 

No that's not what they are asking. They are not asking anything at all. They are simply dismissing it without even owning one. And even before it was launched. Read the thread.

 

The phrase below (copy / paste) sums it all (from one of the industry participants on the site):

 

-----It's a con. We don't need to see or measure it to draw an accurate conclusion.-----

[pl_svn]

6 minutes ago, thyname said:

They are simply dismissing it without even owning one. And even before it was launched. Read the thread.

"An expert doesn't need to think: he already knows"  

(sorry: can't remember who wrote it)

[Superdad]

3 minutes ago, PYP said:

Can we take this "discussion" elsewhere?

 

It is completely my fault that we got off track from the Listening Impressions topic.  I was the one who brought up the hubbub going on over at ASR. And I have in the last 12 hours or so posted here my thoughts on the matter—as have a number of others (and I thank @pkane2001 for being civil in presenting his viewpoints).

 

But indeed, let us all move on here. Of course anyone is free to start a new thread to continue with the larger discussion. 

Thanks,

—ALEX

[Theobetley]

Ok got my ER today and it was cold as ice (here in Plymouth, Mi) and set it to internal clock and worked perfectly. After 15 minutes it was warm to hot and sounded magnificent. Bass, midrange were exemplary and highs on the flutes in Taj Mahal’s African Herbman knocked me on my a##. This after 15 minutes! The sense of real music playing in real space was palpable. Guess i’ll be up late tonight. Oh I also played a rock piece that is terribly poorly recorded and the effects of the ER was to make it more listenable. Indeed a smashing success for Superdad and John Swenson.

 

Uh oh  as I was typing this it started stuttering and would not play. I restarted HQP and the ER and it’s ok now. Cautiously happy 

[Bernstein]

Hi folks! 
 

Got my ER today in it is heating up since 12 hours. Haven’t yet listen...

First I got some issues with my roon server, but eventually worked out by completely restarting my router and power cycle the whole system. Works now fine ( @Superdad see my email [email protected]) While testing, I used firstly the LPS I have (floating) and now the smps. What is your experience soundwise? 
I like that it is grounded perfectly is designed to work perfectly as a bundle, so I think I will stick with it. 

[gstew]

Sorry Alex, I already wrote this post in my head and wanted to capture it while the topic was fresh. I hope you move this all to a new thread to keep the conversation(?) flowing.

 

6 hours ago, pl_svn said:

"An expert doesn't need to think: he already knows"  

(sorry: can't remember who wrote it)

 

6 hours ago, thyname said:

No that's not what they are asking. They are not asking anything at all. They are simply dismissing it without even owning one. And even before it was launched. Read the thread.

The phrase below (copy / paste) sums it all (from one of the industry participants on the site):

-----It's a con. We don't need to see or measure it to draw an accurate conclusion.-----

 

In my mind, these comments along with a few others about closed minds are the crux of the matter.

I say there are 2 types of audio engineers:

 

- Those that are open to hearing differences and accepting of others reports even when there is no 'accepted' explanation for what they heard or was reported. AND they use their knowledge, experience, and skill to identify the mechanisms and quantify the differences and use their knowledge to produce improved audio gear.

 

- Those who know they understand all there is about audio and our experience of it. They spend their time denying any differences occur outside of their knowledge and use their knowledge to convince those who hear differences that they REALLY can't be hearing what they report, they are lying to themselves and others, and BTW, did you do a blind-test?

 

John Swenson is an excellent example of the first, though there are many others in that realm that I follow, respect, and appreciate.

The folks at ASR (and some here) fit the second type. AND AFAIK, have no real value in what I consider 'high-end' audio.

 

9 hours ago, nonesup said:

That's why I hope that John and Alex will ever decide to build a super ISO Regen, with electronic moat technology.

 

In addition, I hope they will look at an I2S version of this tech for use with PS Audio I2S over HDMI, for use with SBCs that output I2S like Raspberry Pi's and the multitude of DAC HATs available out there AND us DIY'ers who like to play with them, and for licensing and incorporation into others' products.

 

Finally, a timely commentary on measurements and sonics by Paul McGowen of PS Audio from today:

https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/measure-well-sound-bad/ 

 

Greg in Mississippi

 

P.S. EtherRegen sounding good in my 2 setups, but I want to give it more break-in time and more listening before I report.

[cat6man]

@superdad

 

not sure if you've seen this, but when folks talk about big improvements with $100k rigs, you've got something special.

 

https://whatsbestforum.com/threads/the-uptone-audio-etherregen-audiophile-switch.29106/post-608363

https://whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/post-608361

 

they are also talking about (in the future) stacking 2 eR, ala what folks were doing with the sotm switches

 

lastly, they reported that A=>B sounded better than B=>A but that could be a lot of things (e.g. is the electrical input to their dac better/equal/worse than the optical input)

[MikePid]

The listening reviews so far have been very one-sided. So allow me to break the trend with a somewhat negative review. The EtherREGEN I ordered has not improved the sound of my system, and it seems to sound worse now. I suppose it takes more than for me to have just placed the order, but that I actually have to get my ER delivered🙄, which is still a couple of months away (3rd batch) 🙁. 

 

Reading all the reviews here now makes me aware that my system is not sounding as good as it could, so what has been good sound until now is more hazy and muddy knowing it is going through my dirty Ethernet 🤣.  
 

Happy listening to all you lucky folks in the first batch!