USB audio cracked... finally!

[marce]

7 hours ago, Doak said:

The only problem here appears to be the following "or/and" situation:

1. You cannot hear well enough to discern the things so many of us do hear and can reliably and collectively describe.

2. Your audio system performs at a level that does not allow you to hear what so many of us are hearing.

Both of these are your problem (not disgraceful, just factual).

Please see your way to discontinue making them our problem.

Wasting your time is one thing. 

Wasting ours is quite another. 

Yawn yawn yawn again the same old rubbish about systems and hearing ability comes out...

Some have the problem of trusting their perceptions totally not a good idea.

At the end of the day I presume you are like the majority  of true believing audiophiles, a middle aged man with middle aged hearing and an ineffable belief in ones hearing abilities... put them to the test (proper testing) you will be suprised...

[manisandher]

Guys, let's just take a step back from all this.

 

There's no doubt in my mind that the Lush sounds different to any other USB cable I've ever tried. IMO, there are now way too many different people, using many different DACs, all having similar experiences of the Lush, for this to be anything other than a real phenomenon. And I found the earlier technical discussions in this thread as to what might be happening fascinating. But if anyone feels that we're more likely to be deluding ourselves than hearing a real phenomenon, that's fine.

 

And really, no one needs to prove anything to anyone. You continue enjoying your music, and we'll continue enjoying ours. And FWIW, I've never enjoyed listening to music more in my home than I do today with the Lush in place.

 

Mani.

[Teresa]

19 hours ago, manisandher said:

At the beginning of this thread, I mentioned some of the USB cables I've bought and tried over the years. One in particular I bought 3 years ago and cost around 5 times as much as the Lush. It's been sitting gathering dust in my basement for the best part of 3 years - I hated the way it sounded when I first tried it, and I still hate the way it sounds today. Perhaps someone could explain to me why over this 3-year period I've never been able to convince myself that this expensive USB cable sounds better than the much cheaper ones I have?...

 

Mani, I'm confused, why didn't you return it for a full refund? I return anything I don't like, I'm not afraid of salespeople, I just ask for a refund and I get it every time. If it is 5 times the cost of the Lush I guess that would be 1,000-2,000 euros (US1,180 to $1,360) depending on length. That's a hell of a lot of money to be gathering dust in your basement. 

 

The Lush USB cable is way out of my price range, it doesn't matter how good it sounds I just can't spend 200-400 euros (US$236 to $472) depending on length. I use a cheap 10 foot Dynex USB cable, I don't remember the price but it wasn't very expensive. I was going to try an entry level AudioQuest USB cable but Best Buy didn't have any AudioQuest USB's long enough. I'm happy enough with my Dynex. Is there better sounding USB cables? I'm sure there are. I just won't spend that kind of money on a cable. Perhaps I'm not an audiophile after all despite the fact I love audiophile recordings. I just don't care if there is better sound to be had, as long as I like the sound I have.

[Teresa]

18 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

My Pass amps have it stated right in the manual: 

Quote

It takes at least an hour of warm up time to get the best performance out of the amplifier. It will take that long to reach operating temperature and exhibit lowest distortion and noise. This is not a subjective judgement, but based on actual distortion and noise measurements. You may find somewhat greater residual noise coming through the loudspeaker when the amplifier is first turned on, but it will decrease as the amplifier warms up.

 

Nothing about break-in period, though

 

Makes sense to me. I turn on my audio system when I get up. It warms up while I take a bath and eat breakfast. 

[Teresa]

12 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

If psychoacoustics deceives us but makes us happy then it should be cheap... a lot cheaper than fancy cables, DAC addons, etc.

 

I love cheap, that is if it sounds like real music to me.

[manisandher]

19 minutes ago, Teresa said:

 

Mani, I'm confused, why didn't you return it for a full refund? I return anything I don't like, I'm not afraid of salespeople, I just ask for a refund and I get it every time. If it is 5 times the cost of the Lush I guess that would be 1,000-2,000 euros (US1,180 to $1,360) depending on length. That's a hell of a lot of money to be gathering dust in your basement. 

 

The Lush USB cable is way out of my price range, it doesn't matter how good it sounds I just can't spend 200-400 euros (US$236 to $472) depending on length. I use a cheap 10 foot Dynex USB cable, I don't remember the price but it wasn't very expensive. I was going to try an entry level AudioQuest USB cable but Best Buy didn't have any AudioQuest USB's long enough. I'm happy enough with my Dynex. Is there better sounding USB cables? I'm sure there are. I just won't spend that kind of money on a cable. Perhaps I'm not an audiophile after all despite the fact I love audiophile recordings. I just don't care if there is better sound to be had, as long as I like the sound I have.

 

Hi Teresa, it's a mistake I'll never make again. I needed a 3.5m length and was told that it would be a custom order with no refund possible. I've tried to sell it on eBay on a few occasions over the past 3 years to recoup a bit of the money, but have never managed to find a decent buyer.

 

Mani.

[Teresa]

1 minute ago, manisandher said:

 

Hi Teresa, it's a mistake I'll never make again. I needed a 3.5m length and was told that it would be a custom order with no refund possible. I've tried to sell it on eBay on a few occasions over the past 3 years to recoup a bit of the money, but have never managed to find a decent buyer.

 

Mani.

 

That's a real bummer.  Have you tried Audiogon?

[Teresa]

11 hours ago, Speed Racer said:

 

I don't buy into the expensive cable crap. And, by the way, there is no science to controvert that!

 

I don't buy expensive cables either, mainly because I'm a poor audiophile who looks for affordable bargains. I try to use stuff I buy until it breaks down and is too expensive to repair. However, I feel no need to attack or belittle rich people who can afford cables or equipment I cannot.

[rando]

Brash and repetitive.  I hope Mani sees what I lead off the previous page with wasn't a personal attack.  Speed Racer et al appearance in this thread is slowly trending in the direction of settling on him or anyone of greater experience and means as a target.  The reception rational civil minded requests for abatement have received are fast becoming a side investigation of insipid tarted up childhood taunts.  

 

 

 

I had typed this last night (Slight edit for new page).  Low and behold, salt meets wound and compress.  In some minds it is easier to pull down walls in anger than ascribe to betterment.  

[89reksal]

2 hours ago, marce said:

Oh yawn yawn yawn... give it a rest, prove what you are hearing is not delusional...

 

I think that comment gets right to the basic issue causing so much BS on these threads. Not even taking into account the completely condescending tone of your posts, why in the world would you have the nerve or arrogance to think it's up to him/her, or anyone else, to prove anything? It's you and your ilk that are continually stating as fact how impossible these results are. I would think it would be up to you to prove that what's being heard IS delusional. Or, even better, actually try something for yourself, even just once, before spouting off your useless, pointless, unwelcome advice and thoughts.

[pkane2001]

10 minutes ago, lasker98 said:

 

I think that comment gets right to the basic issue causing so much BS on these threads. Not even taking into account the completely condescending tone of your posts, why in the world would you have the nerve or arrogance to think it's up to him/her, or anyone else, to prove anything? It's you and your ilk that are continually stating as fact how impossible these results are. I would think it would be up to you to prove that what's being heard IS delusional. Or, even better, actually try something for yourself, even just once, before spouting off your useless, pointless, unwelcome advice and thoughts.

 

lasker98, there's an ignore button provided for this purpose. I suggest you use it, instead of assuming you are speaking for everyone here. You are not.

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 hours ago, marce said:

Oh yawn yawn yawn... give it a rest, prove what you are hearing is not delusional...

 

Calling someone delusional isn't allowed here at CA. Please be respectful.

[Jud]

Kids, kids - plenty of room for all sorts of views.  Being friendly about it is so easy.

 

Here, simple: I learn plenty from folks who look for objective explanations.  I also love gabbing about what I’ve heard, and read carefully the impressions of people I’ve found have tastes similar to mine.  These two things are not in conflict.

 

We know the physics of human powered vehicles is well settled, but to Larry’s point, it would get quite old being told to hop on a dyno and prove it every time you said you liked Campy cranksets better.

[mav52]

20 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

 

My Pass amps have it stated right in the manual: 

 

Nothing about break-in period, though.

I own two Pass Amps,  XA30.5 and a Int-60  Neither have anything written about amp breakin in the owners manual..  Ineresting

[elcorso]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Calling someone delusional isn't allowed here at CA. Please be respectful.

 

I do not feel offended because they say 'delusi * n * l' (the forbidden word), on the contrary. In the artistic world of Bonsai could shows that you are creative.

 

But take my example, I have not told anyone 'deaf’ since a long time. I have been respectful  

 

Roch

[elcorso]

39 minutes ago, mav52 said:

I own two Pass Amps,  XA30.5 and a Int-60  Neither have anything written about amp breakin in the owners manual..  Ineresting

 

These manuals almost always say very little and Pass is an excellent designer and builder of audio equipment. The basic characteristics of the SQ are good from the start and usually remain constant throughout their life, otherwise no one would buy them if they are subjected to an initial test. Some gear are put in the factory to burn-in to prove that everything works well (and other things).

In some gear the change is minimal but important, after the burn-in.

 

Roch

[elcorso]

1 hour ago, Jud said:

Kids, kids - plenty of room for all sorts of views.  Being friendly about it is so easy.

 

Here, simple: I learn plenty from folks who look for objective explanations.  I also love gabbing about what I’ve heard, and read carefully the impressions of people I’ve found have tastes similar to mine.  These two things are not in conflict.

 

We know the physics of human powered vehicles is well settled, but to Larry’s point, it would get quite old being told to hop on a dyno and prove it every time you said you liked Campy cranksets better.

 

 

Thanks Jud, its a long, but long time nobody call me 'kid' 

 

Roch

[jabbr]

3 hours ago, mav52 said:

I own two Pass Amps,  XA30.5 and a Int-60  Neither have anything written about amp breakin in the owners manual..  Ineresting

Two different issues. 

1) temp equilibration -- this is easily measurable and the manuals recommend a warm up time ~1 hr.

2) long term "break in" not discussed in manual. NP allows that all sorts of electronics seem to settle over time and that this might be due to the listener settling as well.

[kennyb123]

5 hours ago, lasker98 said:

 

I think that comment gets right to the basic issue causing so much BS on these threads. Not even taking into account the completely condescending tone of your posts, why in the world would you have the nerve or arrogance to think it's up to him/her, or anyone else, to prove anything? It's you and your ilk that are continually stating as fact how impossible these results are. I would think it would be up to you to prove that what's being heard IS delusional. Or, even better, actually try something for yourself, even just once, before spouting off your useless, pointless, unwelcome advice and thoughts.

 

It's difficult not to see grandiosity displayed in the behaviors of some.  What else could explain the need to pounce on these threads to repeatedly tell the rest of us that we're just delusional?  Seems these cable posts simply serve as a source of narcissistic supply that some use to boost their egos, draw attention to themselves, and affirm their feelings of superiority.  It's sad.

[Ralf11]

nothing about being lawyers, doctors, business executives, IT professionals and academics substitutes for some basic electronics knowledge or the ability to control for confirmation bias

 

now, if somebody said they were a statistician, that would help

 

OTOH, these cables may well improve SQ on some DACs or maybe every DAC - but we will never know w/o some listening tests

 

posting "wow - great" with no specifics does little or nothing; give the specifics about your listening session, equipment, other cable tested against and... WHAT differences you heard

 

a stmt. that no cable can alter any characteristic of sound is likewise untrue and not helpful

 

the affirmative has the burden of producing some proof, so...

[mav52]

1 hour ago, jabbr said:

Two different issues. 

1) temp equilibration -- this is easily measurable and the manuals recommend a warm up time ~1 hr.

2) long term "break in" not discussed in manual. NP allows that all sorts of electronics seem to settle over time and that this might be due to the listener settling as well.

I just turn them on and let the music play.  Had them too long to worry about break in, burn in, temp equalization, long term, short term etc.. etc..

[robocop]

I have the Clairixa's Peter's first commercial USB cables. All I can say is they easily beat my Benchmark provided off the shelf USB cord. I presume the Benchmark does comply with the USB standard as a minimum as does the Clairixa. Whether one is better than the other all I can say is I prefer the detailed sound of the Clairixa. I have not moved to the Lush yet. In general I'm happy but somewhere in the future probably will get the Lush.

 

Bearing in mind I've now moved to the Oppo 205 as my DAC and this easily beats the Benchmark DAC2. Progress is a fine thing!!!!!

[fas42]

3 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

nothing about being lawyers, doctors, business executives, IT professionals and academics substitutes for some basic electronics knowledge or the ability to control for confirmation bias

 

now, if somebody said they were a statistician, that would help

 

OTOH, these cables may well improve SQ on some DACs or maybe every DAC - but we will never know w/o some listening tests

 

posting "wow - great" with no specifics does little or nothing; give the specifics about your listening session, equipment, other cable tested against and... WHAT differences you heard

 

a stmt. that no cable can alter any characteristic of sound is likewise untrue and not helpful

 

the affirmative has the burden of producing some proof, so...

 

Basic electronics knowledge, of those people who insist that electronics is really all very simple, and it's trivial to create components that will do it all "perfectly", is the problem. They are in a halfway house, where some knowledge is worse than no knowledge - they think they "know it all!". If people who are genuinely interested in understanding fully what goes on in electronics environments do a little research, they find it starts becoming messy, mighty fast. The throwaway line always used by audio equipment apologists, that "esoteric behaviours or complex interaction obviously will not cause audible variations!!" just ain't gonna cut it, I'm afraid.

 

Nice to have the world work like an easily understood clockwork toy - but just wanting that doesn't make it so ... just ask any physicist!

[Tone Deaf]

4 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

the affirmative has the burden of producing some proof, so...

That's actually pretty funny.  You are expecting the folks who don't care about proof to provide it to those who do care about it?  I think you are addressing the wrong audience....

[Ciukas]

12 hours ago, marce said:

Oh yawn yawn yawn... give it a rest, prove what you are hearing is not delusional...

3 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

nothing about being lawyers, doctors, business executives, IT professionals and academics substitutes for some basic electronics knowledge or the ability to control for confirmation bias

 

the affirmative has the burden of producing some proof, so...

 

The affirmative of what? Of a majority opinion? The way I see it, consumers clearly are not subject to having additional burdens of proof placed on them to substantiate their obviously voluntary, non imposing, and entirely subjective opinions. Most of us posting impressions of a product did not sign up for that when deciding to share, again, what is a purely subjective experience. Nor should we have to.. We are not presenting an idea, theory, or concept that must be proved right by validation of the scientific community through peer review.

 

Clearly you both are engaging in a fallacious shifting of the burden of proof by telling me that 'cables don't make a difference' and asking me to prove the opposite of your claim; 'no, that in fact they bloody do make a difference'. You don't get to tell me that. I am not beholden to your logical fallacy. 

 

And even if I ever were, how the hell do you propose I do that? Am I to buy thousands of dollars in equipments, and take multiple degrees in engineering, acoustics, psychology, etc. just so that I can validate your ridiculous burden of proof? While we're at it, why dont you also necessitate that I also have perfect pitch, and the ability to hear from 5hz to 20khz, and take classes at Harman Kardon in how to properly verbalize what is it that I'm hearing? Because how do you know you can fully appreciate any changes in sound quality if your hearing only goes up till 14khz? How do you know you're not delusional? Any logical extensions of such reasoning would by definition mostly likely invalidate most of us who dare post positive impressions on a product. Because we must, by extension, be unrelenting fanboys in a drunken stupor of kool aid fully bent on evangelizing the rest of the community to our beliefs or else. How patently absurd.

 

USB cables discussions are sort of similar to the mainstream take on expensive wines. Highly controversial to say the least, and often hijacked by naysayers insisting that double blind testing must be conducted just so one can rebuke what to begin with is an unfair and fallacious burden of proof? Most of us can't be master sommeliers, nor should we have to be to describe how much better a particular wine is to another. And I'd tell you where to stick it if you insist that I couldnt really tell how a Château Rayas does not taste the same as some cheapo 5 euro supermarket Rhone wine. I don't have to prove it to you.

 

Like @lmitche said, many of us have read Daniel Kahneman, and go into choppy waters fully aware of system confirmation biases... and are still likely to fall prey to it many times... But still, as seriously as I take audio, it's supposed to be fun! Do we really have to preface every statement with the obvious 'YMMV' trope?

 

That being said, manufacturers obviously are held to a different standard. I'm not disputing that. Making a claim should be backed by some sort of evidence but it seems certain companies discussed here are especially subject to an inordinate amount of scrutiny. Perhaps they can provide further proof of measurements, and from what I understand, some of them are in the process of doing so. But the one constant these companies have going for them are overwhelmingly positive reviews. One can't simply discount the lived-in positive experiences of these users. Groupthink is possible, no doubt, but to viciously attack and denigrate user experiences is I think to show an incredible amount of bad faith, especially considering that I haven't seen many instances of attempted spoonfed conversions. I have received my Lush cable, am waiting for my IsoRegen/LPS-1 combo, and hope the time comes I post some general impressions, I won't be outright dismissed as being delusional.