Popular Post manisandher Posted July 14, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted July 14, 2017 [Edit: 2nd August 2017] Known DACs that various users around the world are using with the Lush USB audio cable, with positive sonic benefits: - Phasure NOS1 G3 - Holo Audio Spring - Aries Cerat Kassandra - Pacific Microsonics Model Two (with Playback Designs USB-XIII USB-AES converter) - Schiit Yggdrasil (pre Gen 5 board) - exaSound e32 - iFi nano iDSD - iFi micro iDSD - dCS Debussy - Benchmark DAC2-D - Chord DAVE - Pink Faun DAC 2.32 (with Wavelength Wavelink USB --> BNC converter) - NAD M12 - Lampizator B7 - Ayre Codex - Halide DAC HD - TotalDac d1-12 - Playback Design MPS-5 w/ USB-X(2) interphase - exaSound e22 Mark II - S.M.S.L iDEA HiRes - T+A dac 8 dsd - Chord Hugo 2 ********************************************************************************************* If you believe that there is no more issue using USB for audio than using it for a mouse, then simply move along to another thread that interests you. No need to waste your time posting here. But for the rest of you… I’ve spent an inordinate amount of time and money over the years trying to get USB audio to sound right. I’d like to outline the problem (at a very high level – there’s loads here on CA and on the net about this stuff) and some of the things I’ve tried in this thread. I’ll also share what has finally worked – turned USB audio into music. Some of the issues first: Quote One of the main bugbears of computer audio is EMI noise. The noise is generated by the raft of generic switch-mode power supply units scattered throughout the computer being in close proximity with the audio path. This is an unwanted distraction to the point of being downright annoying. The residual noise floor is heard most patently between tracks. - Thorsten Loesch Quote Any interface between two points cannot be totally error free. If you use a hard drive over USB, Ethernet or Firewire there are transmission errors. That means the transmitting device is told to resend the packet that has the error in it. Most of the time this is one bit in a packet size of length X. For USB audio, the receiving device is basically translating a serial stream of data with a clock interwoven throughout. At the end of the packet sits some sort of block check. If the block check does not match the data then that packet is flagged as an error. With Isosynchronous USB transmission, packets are sent without any error correction / resending. But guess what? This is the USB protocol used for audio frames. The bad news is they are not error free. The good news is these Isosynchronous frames are afforded the highest priority in the system. Twelve years ago, I pretty much thought as many people do today: that USB was the answer to our S/PDIF quandaries. In some ways it is a good deal better. We have Asynchronous Isosynchronous so the device and host know about sample rates, bit rates, clocking options and a host of other things. But cables make a difference, computer brand and quality make a difference and even the device makes a difference. - Gordon Rankin Quote Remember that Signal Integrity consists of rise/fall time, noise, and jitter. The jitter in the SIGNAL is determined by the transmitter PHY, which can be significantly influenced by the clock IT gets and the noise on its PG planes. USUALLY noise is low on the signal as it exits the PHY. The cable (and connectors) cause an increase in raise/fall times, added noise (EMI and crosstalk from power and ground wires) and decreased amplitude of the signal. Any decent receiver will have an automatic gain control (AGC) which compensates for this effect, but that raises the noise on the signal, so I'm lumping the amplitude decrease into noise. - John Swenson Some of the things I’ve tried in the next post… Mani. k-man, Teresa, johndoe21ro and 1 other 4 Main: SOtM sMS-200 -> Okto dac8PRO -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horns + 2x Rotel RB-1590 amps -> 4 subs Home Office: SOtM sMS-200 -> MOTU UltraLite-mk5 -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Impulse H2 speakers Vinyl: Technics SP10 / London (Decca) Reference -> Trafomatic Luna -> RME ADI-2 Pro Link to comment
Popular Post mourip Posted July 14, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted July 14, 2017 1 hour ago, manisandher said: If you believe that there is no more issue using USB for audio than using it for a mouse, then simply move along to another thread that interests you. No need to waste your time posting here. But for the rest of you… I’ve spent an inordinate amount of time and money over the years trying to get USB audio to sound right. I’d like to outline the problem (at a very high level – there’s loads here on CA and on the net about this stuff) and some of the things I’ve tried in this thread. I’ll also share what has finally worked – turned USB audio into music. Some of the issues first:..... Some of the things I’ve tried in the next post… Mani. Looking forward to your findings and that your initial request be respected... Teresa and MikeyFresh 2 "Don't Believe Everything You Think" System Link to comment
manisandher Posted July 14, 2017 Author Share Posted July 14, 2017 Of course, I haven't tried everything that's out there. But I wanted to give an idea of what I have tried... Over the years, I’ve tried a whole bunch of different USB cables. Here are just a selection from my box: What amazes me is that these all sound different to each other. They represent a wide spectrum of sound, from ‘massively full-bodied’ (the Tellurium Black Diamond) to ‘crystal clear’ (the Phasure Clarixa). All the others seem to sit somewhere between these two extremes. Some have the 5V line disconnected (the custom-made AR-T) and others have the 5V line separated (the Ridge Street Enopias) - simply cutting or separating the power line seems to be no panacea. As well as cables, I’ve played around with the USB ports in the audio PC. Here’s a Startech USB 3.0 PCIe card with its oscillator removed and replaced by an external Dexa clock and LPSU: I’ve tried USB isolation devices too. The Intona seemed to move things in the right direction: But over time I came to the conclusion that it was adding a sort of unnatural ‘sheen’ to the sound. I’ve also explored USB-to-spdif converters, such as the AR-T Veloce (a Legato with a 9V DC input): This has a clock which is -89 dBc @ 1 Hz, and yet doesn’t cost the earth. Unfortunately, I haven’t found a DAC with a BNC spdif input that matches, let alone betters, the sound of my preferred USB DAC. Like many others here, I’ve tried the microRendu (with built-in REGEN) and the LPS-1: Well-engineered products that perform very well. After extensive listening, I decided that I prefer the sound of my dedicated audio PC (which costs a lot more than this combo, it has to be said). None of the above ‘cracked’ USB audio, to my ears. But my latest addition has… Mani. mozes 1 Main: SOtM sMS-200 -> Okto dac8PRO -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horns + 2x Rotel RB-1590 amps -> 4 subs Home Office: SOtM sMS-200 -> MOTU UltraLite-mk5 -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Impulse H2 speakers Vinyl: Technics SP10 / London (Decca) Reference -> Trafomatic Luna -> RME ADI-2 Pro Link to comment
manisandher Posted July 14, 2017 Author Share Posted July 14, 2017 51 minutes ago, mourip said: Looking forward to your findings and that your initial request be respected... Haha... let's see! Mani. Main: SOtM sMS-200 -> Okto dac8PRO -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horns + 2x Rotel RB-1590 amps -> 4 subs Home Office: SOtM sMS-200 -> MOTU UltraLite-mk5 -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Impulse H2 speakers Vinyl: Technics SP10 / London (Decca) Reference -> Trafomatic Luna -> RME ADI-2 Pro Link to comment
manisandher Posted July 14, 2017 Author Share Posted July 14, 2017 Very rarely have I come across a person whose brain seems to be wired in a totally different way to the rest of us. Back in 1993, I spent a very short stint at the Max Planck Institute in Stuttgart, where I breathed the same air as Klaus von Klitzing. His brain seemed to be wired differently. I have a friend who is a QC in London, specializing in International Arbitration. His brain seems to be wired differently. And then there’s our very own PeterSt… This is the man who as a day-job owns/runs a successful CRM software company. The man who always wanted to live next to a lake, so had one dug up (a lake, not a pond!) next to his newly-built house (the lake now acting as a nature reserve in his village). The man who, unhappy with how all computer software players sounded at the time, made his own… (along with designing/producing the best DAC I’ve ever heard, designing/producing the best audio PC I’ve ever heard, and having some input in designing an outstanding pair of horn speakers.) Peter’s brain seems to be wired differently to most of the rest of us… And I doubt anyone has a better handle on USB audio (Loesch, Rankin and Swenson included). Peter has continually improved the performance of the USB input of the Phasure NOS1 (most recently with the 'Phisolator' USB isolator built into the DAC), but I don’t want to talk about that here. I want to focus on the two USB cables that he's produced to date. His first cable was the ‘Clarixa’. His objective here was to match the USB 2.0 spec (90 Ω, 480Mbit/s, etc.) more closely than any other USB cable available. Along with many others, I’ve been using this cable for a couple of years now, in which time it’s seen off many other contenders. As the name suggests, the sound is ‘crystal clear’… but weirdly, not necessarily very engaging. My understanding is that Peter (with his differently-wired brain) wondered whether the regular USB spec was necessarily the best for audio. And in a manner that is totally incomprehensible to me, decided that it was not. He sat down and worked out his own ultimate spec for USB audio… and built a cable matching it. The result is his new USB cable, the ‘Lush’: It’s difficult explaining the sound of the Lush, though the name should give a clue. Another Lush owner came up with the following image: I’m not sure how helpful this is, but it resonates with what I hear too. There’s no point in describing the sound in terms of “more of this” or “less of that”. It’s simply more ‘musical’, in a seriously foot-tapping way. As with most people here, I listen to all sorts of genres. But I’ve noticed something in the short time I’ve had the Lush in my system: I’ve been listening to loads of late-‘60s/early-‘70s English rock! Led Zep. Rainbow, Genesis, Pink Floyd, Black Sabbath, Blind Faith, Deep Purple, Clapton (does he count?) – they all sound fantastic! If I had to put my finger on it, I’d say it was the rhythm sections that now sound so dynamic and utterly lifelike. I always thought John Bonham a ‘good’ drummer, but I now have an appreciation for the guy that goes way beyond that (and for John Paul Jones too, incidentally). All the way through Rainbow's 'Stargazer' I have a shiver down my spine now. I could go on and on... The 'Lush' is the real deal. Designed not for a computer mouse, but for computer audio. For me, USB audio has been finally cracked. Mani. Teresa 1 Main: SOtM sMS-200 -> Okto dac8PRO -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horns + 2x Rotel RB-1590 amps -> 4 subs Home Office: SOtM sMS-200 -> MOTU UltraLite-mk5 -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Impulse H2 speakers Vinyl: Technics SP10 / London (Decca) Reference -> Trafomatic Luna -> RME ADI-2 Pro Link to comment
semente Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 Hi Mani, In my view, "cracking" USB means that whatever hardware is before the input becomes (nearly) irrelevant (as long as the processing power can cope with the upsampling requirements). Can this be achieved with the Phasure USB input + cable? Cheers, Ricardo "Science draws the wave, poetry fills it with water" Teixeira de Pascoaes HQPlayer Desktop / Mac mini → Intona 7054 → RME ADI-2 DAC FS (DSD256) Link to comment
manisandher Posted July 14, 2017 Author Share Posted July 14, 2017 2 hours ago, semente said: In my view, "cracking" USB means that whatever hardware is before the input becomes (nearly) irrelevant (as long as the processing power can cope with the upsampling requirements). Can this be achieved with the Phasure USB input + cable? [Highlight mine.] Hi Ricardo, I haven't tried it yet, but I'd be very surprised if changing the hardware before the Lush/Phisolator didn't still affect the sound - USB audio just seems incredibly fickle. And if so, you may conclude that USB audio hasn't yet been cracked. When I say that it's been cracked, I mean how a USB cable's electrical and mechanical properties, and its geometry affect the sound has been cracked. Peter now seems to know how to configure a USB cable to voice the sound from it. We are no longer in the realm of trial and error. There is a guy up the road from me who has just purchased the same DAC as mine. He'll be over at my place at some point to compare his 'regular' laptop with my dedicated audio PC. I suspect that the sound of my audio PC will be significantly better than that of his laptop, but that his laptop will remain musically engaging with the Lush cable. I'll let you know once we've done this (hopefully very soon). Mani. semente 1 Main: SOtM sMS-200 -> Okto dac8PRO -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Tune Audio Anima horns + 2x Rotel RB-1590 amps -> 4 subs Home Office: SOtM sMS-200 -> MOTU UltraLite-mk5 -> 6x Neurochrome 286 mono amps -> Impulse H2 speakers Vinyl: Technics SP10 / London (Decca) Reference -> Trafomatic Luna -> RME ADI-2 Pro Link to comment
mmerrill99 Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 9 minutes ago, manisandher said: Peter now seems to know how to configure a USB cable to voice the sound from it. We are no longer in the realm of trial and error. That's great but I expect he will retain this information & we are none the wiser as to what changes in the USB signal translate into SQ changes? Link to comment
rikhav Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 Hi Great thread If you don't mind can you list the config of your audio pc And with the pc you don't use any usb audio improvement devices like the uptone regen and the likes? Link to comment
k-man Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 I was half expecting something to put the Epitome or Trifecta to shame But I am excited what this Lush cable can do to my setup. I currently have the Allo Sparky USBridge with a measured USB noise output of 12 uV. It can pull out more detail alone, compared to when paired with an ISO Regen, but lessens the 'musicality' which I will be needing to restore. Similar to you Mani, I sold off my microRendu to look for better. Back in that USB rabbit hole again Link to comment
ElviaCaprice Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 Not another USB chord savior, argggghhh. What a thread title let down. After hearing the USPCB from Uptone in my system, upstream and downstream of the ISO Regen, another USB chord will never be entertained again. johndoe21ro 1 (JRiver) Jetway barebones NUC (mod 3 sCLK-EX, Cybershaft OP 14) (PH SR7) => mini pcie adapter to PCIe 1X => tXUSBexp PCIe card (mod sCLK-EX) (PH SR7) => (USPCB) Chord DAVE => Omega Super 8XRS/REL t5i (All powered thru Topaz Isolation Transformer) Link to comment
Popular Post JoeWhip Posted July 14, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted July 14, 2017 Sorry, but this reads like an infomercial. jaaptina, David Wiblin, Jeremy Anderson and 1 other 4 Link to comment
rando Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 Could you clarify the meaning of this photo comparison. In general, outside of the supermarket women's magazines, leaving the pores attached to female faces is considered a hallmark of good quality post-production. In your example a filter was simply applied over a lengthy professional conversion that had already created an unrealistic ideal. Which would seem to be at odds with your impression of this cable. Link to comment
kumakuma Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 1 minute ago, JoeWhip said: Sorry, but this reads like an infomercial. But wait there's more! If you order in the next ten minutes, you'll get two cables for the price of one and the amazing digital data degunker absolutely free. Call the number on your screen now. Operators are standing by. Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley Through the middle of my skull Link to comment
kumakuma Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 3 minutes ago, rando said: Could you clarify the meaning of this photo comparison. In general, outside of the supermarket women's magazines, leaving the pores attached to female faces is considered a hallmark of good quality post-production. In your example a filter was simply applied over a lengthy professional conversion that had already created an unrealistic ideal. Which would seem to be at odds with your impression of this cable. I had similar thoughts. The picture on the right seems to be higher fidelity. However I haven't been close to a women this young recently so I have no live event to compare it to. rando 1 Sometimes it's like someone took a knife, baby Edgy and dull and cut a six inch valley Through the middle of my skull Link to comment
One and a half Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 I doubt a cable can suppress noise from the PC, since the prime purpose of the cable is provide little to no loss in the transmission. The OP would prefer the mix of noise from the PC and how it interacts with the DAC, to that end, I have no problem with. For USB, I'll stick with isolation/PC Card treatment methods to block leakage currents from the PC in combo with a cable that can provide reliability. asdf1000 1 AS Profile Equipment List Say NO to MQA Link to comment
Speed Racer Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 18 minutes ago, One and a half said: I doubt a cable can suppress noise from the PC, since the prime purpose of the cable is provide little to no loss in the transmission. The OP would prefer the mix of noise from the PC and how it interacts with the DAC, to that end, I have no problem with. For USB, I'll stick with isolation/PC Card treatment methods to block leakage currents from the PC in combo with a cable that can provide reliability. Agreed. USB cracked is to not use it at all...... asdf1000 1 Link to comment
mmerrill99 Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 26 minutes ago, One and a half said: I doubt a cable can suppress noise from the PC, since the prime purpose of the cable is provide little to no loss in the transmission. The OP would prefer the mix of noise from the PC and how it interacts with the DAC, to that end, I have no problem with. For USB, I'll stick with isolation/PC Card treatment methods to block leakage currents from the PC in combo with a cable that can provide reliability. 7 minutes ago, Speed Racer said: Agreed. USB cracked is to not use it at all...... Really? no USB cable can suppress noise? Hmmmm http://kgs-ind.com/wp-content/uploads/products/pdf/LNC-Noise-Suppression-USB20-Cable.pdf Link to comment
One and a half Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 4 minutes ago, mmerrill99 said: Really? no USB cable can suppress noise? Hmmmm http://kgs-ind.com/wp-content/uploads/products/pdf/LNC-Noise-Suppression-USB20-Cable.pdf but, but, it's not 90 Ohm or gold plated anything, how could it possibly work for audio? asdf1000 1 AS Profile Equipment List Say NO to MQA Link to comment
mmerrill99 Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 1 minute ago, One and a half said: but, but, it's not 90 Ohm or gold plated anything, how could it possibly work for audio? This cable also changes the sound of USB audio - amazing, isn't it? Link to comment
Speed Racer Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 I still don't see where it says that cable suppresses noise put on the USB lines by the computer BEFORE they exit the computer. I know why...they don't! That cable is only effective IF there is EFI affecting the sound quality. Other cable can certainly block EFI as well. Link to comment
Popular Post elcorso Posted July 15, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted July 15, 2017 1 hour ago, kumakuma said: I had similar thoughts. The picture on the right seems to be higher fidelity. However I haven't been close to a women this young recently so I have no live event to compare it to. Do you drink too much...? The lady in the left is the natural one, that on the right is the same, but after 5 to 7 Scotch ingestion. Please, there are lovely and young women everywhere, get it closer Roch kumakuma, Solstice380 and johndoe21ro 3 Link to comment
elcorso Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 8 minutes ago, Speed Racer said: I still don't see where it says that cable suppresses noise put on the USB lines by the computer BEFORE they exit the computer. I know why...they don't! That cable is only effective IF there is EFI affecting the sound quality. Other cable can certainly block EFI as well. Of course they are... The problem they (sometimes) block musicality too. Roch PS/ I don't own (but like to try) the "Lush"...life. Jud 1 Link to comment
esldude Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 Did you ever figure out why you get the dropped or missed sample every few seconds Mani? And does this cable fix that issue? And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
mmerrill99 Posted July 15, 2017 Share Posted July 15, 2017 46 minutes ago, Speed Racer said: I still don't see where it says that cable suppresses noise put on the USB lines by the computer BEFORE they exit the computer. I know why...they don't! That cable is only effective IF there is EFI affecting the sound quality. Other cable can certainly block EFI as well. 33 minutes ago, elcorso said: Of course they are... The problem they (sometimes) block musicality too. Roch PS/ I don't own (but like to try) the "Lush"...life. There you go! So who's to say that cable configuration & dielectric material won't effect noise on a USB cable? I can tell you that the LNC cable above also sounds lush because it cuts off some HF (as well as noise hash) Link to comment
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