USB audio cracked... finally!

[Albrecht]

On 8/15/2017 at 6:54 AM, Jud said:

Kids, kids - plenty of room for all sorts of views.  Being friendly about it is so easy.

 

Here, simple: I learn plenty from folks who look for objective explanations.  I also love gabbing about what I’ve heard, and read carefully the impressions of people I’ve found have tastes similar to mine.  These two things are not in conflict.

 

We know the physics of human powered vehicles is well settled, but to Larry’s point, it would get quite old being told to hop on a dyno and prove it every time you said you liked Campy cranksets better.

I agree. But I do think that you're missing the point, and missing the big difference. One person is saying a device improves the performance of their system and they are describing their experiences and testing. The other person is making a claim that that person is lying to themselves and demanding that they provide proof that they are not delusional. (This is demeaning; it also implies, or may imply that the accuser is omniscient, *knowing* that something could not happen, even though they did not conduct, or were not at, the same location, at the same time. This "knowing" from the accuser is really just gross speculation).

 

[Ralf11]

24 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

Careful. There is scant scientific evidence about most of consumer audio. Certainly not enough to be certain about many things. Lack of scientific proof does not equate to disproof. Measurements that fail to show something are hardly proof that they don't exist (i.e. There might be a better measurement) An individual's personal listening impression is not a delusion. 

 

Not to to say that there isn't loads of snake oil -- just not necessarily  in this thread -- @PeterSt has alluded that he has used a specific electronic characteristic to design the Lush and I believe him -- he wants to keep it proprietary (I don't know the details myself)

 

Understood, but that isn't what I meant.

 

I am talking mostly about the avoidance of real comparisons (say 15 or 20 of them, at least single blinded).

 

Indeed,  manys comment here are almost completely non-specific consisting of just "wow lot's better" or "yuge!" with nothing about what is really meant.  Even the @wgscott pilloried "lifting the veil" conveys some information.

 

For some xlnt specific commentary on listening impressions (albeit not blinded - for obvious reasons) see the thread on searching the US for speakers by @Johnseye

 

We could use some of that here.  And then follow it up with some blind testing.

 

I've made this point before (citing the famous index case of London sanitary systems) but the scientific method can be applied to purely "subjective" impressions, and no mechanistic explanation is required.*

[Ralf11]

* tho obviously an engineer or scientist will want to get at that

[jabbr]

16 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

Understood, but that isn't what I meant.

 

I am talking mostly about the avoidance of real comparisons (say 15 or 20 of them, at least single blinded).

 

I don't see any real science even among those doing measurements. How successful would someone be as a scientist if all they ever tried to do was disprove everything? Heh. Ever been on a standards committee? You don't get asked back ?

 

In any case most people here aren't scientists nor have access to real measurement equipment nor want to spend their free time organizing real double blind studies. It's really easy to mess those up if not done correctly -- think how much trouble the FDA has at either not approving drugs that are dangerous or only approving drugs that actually work. Who would pay the $$ needed to do a real study?

[Ralf11]

 all scientists do is try to disprove things

 

(or formulate things that can be disproven)

 

 

it is not hard at all to do a double blind study for some components, like pre-amps - cables, speakers would require 2 people, but there are many gfs or wives who would relish the chance to show their male partner wrong ...

 

I addressed the careful listening impressions just above

[pkane2001]

19 minutes ago, jabbr said:

In any case most people here aren't scientists nor have access to real measurement equipment nor want to spend their free time organizing real double blind studies.

 

That's why it's important that others, who have access to such equipment, publish their measurements and results for others to view. Most appropriately, it should be the job of the designer/manufacturer to provide measurements to back up their claims, especially when these seem to go against known science and require a real stretch of imagination to explain.

[jabbr]

4 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 all scientists do is try to disprove things

 

(or formulate things that can be disproven)

 

 

Well disproving the null hyp is one thing but it's the second part that is key: the formulating part. BTW who was that guy who confirmed Einstein's GTOR? Google must know... but Einstein kept all the credit...

 

In any case care to formulate a study protocol for folks at home to DBT two USB cables? One that passes muster... Post for us... let's say the Lush and another cable to keep this going n topic...

[The Computer Audiophile]

Thankfully we aren't forced purchase products, so the free market can make decisions if it demands measurements or not. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Even with a formula, most people want to enjoy this hobby while listening not studying in a lab. 

[esldude]

Free market hooray.

 

It allows products like this.

 

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Enzyte-24-7-Peak-Performance-Herbal-Supplement-40-ct/21108302

 

Pesky scientists and the gov't eventually forced the company into bankruptcy, but a good idea can't be held down. So it is still Smilin' Bob approved.

 

And hey, just like lots of products in the audiophile world, so what if maybe it doesn't really work.  Its all about having fun, and enjoying life.  No doubt, while there may have been some embarrassments from the above product (or so claim the BBB), and the AUA doesn't believe it, we have lots of anecdotal reports in the many thousands.  And fun was no doubt had just seeing if this really works or not.  Heck worth the price of admission I am guessing. 

 

 

[pkane2001]

Just now, The Computer Audiophile said:

Thankfully we aren't forced purchase products, so the free market can make decisions if it demands measurements or not. 

 

I demand it with my money. It's in everyone's financial interest to do the same. If you want to believe the marketing hype it's your prerogative,  but don't be surprised if you are paying for some oil from a certain slithering reptile.

 

 

[jabbr]

4 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

That's why it's important that others, who have access to such equipment, publish their measurements and results for others to view. Most appropriately, it should be the job of the designer/manufacturer to provide measurements to back up their claims, especially when these seem to go against known science and require a real stretch of imagination to explain.

 

Firstly I have better things to do with my time than provide measurements on other people's products -- I don't even do detailed measurements on all the products I own -- and particularly if I developing something I avoid looking at their IP. 

 

Secondly even when I show you guys a video demonstrating the electrical effect of cable shake -- you (collectively) just make jokes -- it seems that there is a certain segment whose interest is in explaining why not rather than why --I'm saying there should be a balance .

 

Now if a claim goes against known science then I entirely agree with you but the claims being discussed here just flatly dont go against accepted science:

1) There's no accepted science that has determined that cables can't have a sound

2) same goes for other devices such as USB SI eg Uptone Regen, Intona etc (I'll lump peter's Phisolator in with his DAC where it belongs)

[Ralf11]

20 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

... the free market can make decisions if it demands measurements or not. 

 

 

advertising distorts the free market

[esldude]

5 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

Firstly I have better things to do with my time than provide measurements on other people's products -- I don't even do detailed measurements on all the products I own -- and particularly if I developing something I avoid looking at their IP. 

 

Secondly even when I show you guys a video demonstrating the electrical effect of cable shake -- you (collectively) just make jokes -- it seems that there is a certain segment whose interest is in explaining why not rather than why --I'm saying there should be a balance .

 

Now if a claim goes against known science then I entirely agree with you but the claims being discussed here just flatly dont go against accepted science:

1) There's no accepted science that has determined that cables can't have a sound

2) same goes for other devices such as USB SI eg Uptone Regen, Intona etc (I'll lump peter's Phisolator in with his DAC where it belongs)

Where did you show video demonstrating electrical effect of cable shake?  I missed it.  Saw the one about multi-layer caps in test gear.  Saw the part about probes being rapped on the table.  I have posted the sound of tribo-electric effect.  Missed the video demo about cable shake. 

 

 

[pkane2001]

1 minute ago, jabbr said:

 

Firstly I have better things to do with my time than provide measurements on other people's products -- I don't even do detailed measurements on all the products I own

 

Sure, I'm not asking you to do it. When I measure a piece of equipment I own, I share the results with others. I'm curious to see how it performs. I'm curious to see if there are some things I need to improve on. I'm curious if it's working as expected. I'm sure there are others that would want to see this, as well.

 

3 minutes ago, jabbr said:

Secondly even when I show you guys a video demonstrating the electrical effect of cable shake -- you (collectively) just make jokes -- it seems that there is a certain segment whose interest is in explaining why not rather than why --I'm saying there should be a balance .

 

Sorry if you mistook my response as not taking your post seriously. I may have a weird sense of humor, and sometimes thing just strike me a certain way... I'm aware of the microphonic effect in certain capacitors, and I can believe that poor connections can cause noise when vibrated sufficiently. A vibrating wire in an electro-magnetic field can certainly induce unwanted currents. This, though, is a far cry from explaining the lengthy break-in period for USB cables that was being claimed, you have to admit that.

[Ralf11]

27 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

Well disproving the null hyp is one thing but it's the second part that is key: the formulating part. BTW who was that guy who confirmed Einstein's GTOR? Google must know... but Einstein kept all the credit...

 

In any case care to formulate a study protocol for folks at home to DBT two USB cables? One that passes muster... Post for us... let's say the Lush and another cable to keep this going n topic...

 

I am going to guess that you are not a scientist.  Anybody (ok, any young grad. student) can do the formulating, and some journals in my own field are rife with speculation (fancied up with math).  It is the test that is key.

 

Got 2 people?  I have better things to do with my time too....  but it's easy to have one person swap cables while the other is at work or wherever.

 

BTW, Magneplanar blind tests their speakers before releasing a new model.  Then there's JBL...

 

 

For the record, I did not diss the cables can affect sound idea, nor the shaking video.

[The Computer Audiophile]

16 minutes ago, esldude said:

Free market hooray.

 

It allows products like this.

 

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Enzyte-24-7-Peak-Performance-Herbal-Supplement-40-ct/21108302

 

Pesky scientists and the gov't eventually forced the company into bankruptcy, but a good idea can't be held down. So it is still Smilin' Bob approved.

 

And hey, just like lots of products in the audiophile world, so what if maybe it doesn't really work.  Its all about having fun, and enjoying life.  No doubt, while there may have been some embarrassments from the above product (or so claim the BBB), and the AUA doesn't believe it, we have lots of anecdotal reports in the many thousands.  And fun was no doubt had just seeing if this really works or not.  Heck worth the price of admission I am guessing. 

 

 

 

Things that go into the body may need a different standard. That said, nobody has to buy products that don't pass that standard. Such as, "not tested or approved by the FDA." 

 

I don't want you deciding what I can spend my money on. And I don't want me deciding what you can spend your money at on. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

15 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

I demand it with my money. It's in everyone's financial interest to do the same. If you want to believe the marketing hype it's your prerogative,  but don't be surprised if you are paying for some oil from a certain slithering reptile.

 

 

 

What's in your best interest isn't necessarily in anyone else's best interest. 

 

Don't save people from themselves if they don't want to be saved.

 

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

 

advertising distorts the free market

 

 

Uh, ok. 

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

7 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

BTW, Magneplanar blind tests their speakers before releasing a new model.

 

With what, those terribly unreliable human ears? How blasphemous :~)

[jabbr]

2 minutes ago, esldude said:

Where did you show video demonstrating electrical effect of cable shake?  I missed it.  Saw the one about multi-layer caps in test gear.  Saw the part about probes being rapped on the table.  I have posted the sound of tribo-electric effect.  Missed the video demo about cable shake. 

 

You're correct that was a test probe ... of course the MLCs are in the end connected to the scope... tribo-electric effect with cables ... where did you post this (refresh our memory)? In any case not all cables exhibit this and I was just saying that so called "burn in" may actually be the tribo-electric effects, etc, "settling down"... and I would expect this to occur fairly quickly.

[pkane2001]

1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Don't save people from themselves if they don't want to be saved.

 

Not what I'm trying to do. Mostly, I just want more objective information to be published on products I consider interesting. It's OK to ask for this, no?

 

[jabbr]

17 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

I am going to guess that you are not a scientist.  Anybody (ok, any young grad. student) can do the formulating, and some journals in my own field are rife with speculation (fancied up with math).  It is the test that is key.

 

Got 2 people?  I have better things to do with my time too....  but it's easy to have one person swap cables while the other is at work or wherever.

 

C'mon. DBT with one subject (the other human is doing the swapping)? Really?

 

It could easily cost $10K to do a real study ... ever done a budget for a funded human study? Maybe this could be crowdfunded to be objective. You are a scientist, so let's see a protocol? Or... yeah too much work, that's my point

[esldude]

17 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Things that go into the body may need a different standard. That said, nobody has to buy products that don't pass that standard. Such as, "not tested or approved by the FDA." 

 

 

 

Actually no, as long as its herbal it has about the same standards as audio gear.  Well actually less.  Audio gear does have to pass certain electrical safety standards. 

[jabbr]

27 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Things that go into the body may need a different standard. That said, nobody has to buy products that don't pass that standard. Such as, "not tested or approved by the FDA." 

 

 

 I think that, unfortunately, the severe expense of FDA testing greatly increases the cost of new drugs such that they are unaffordable. The placebo effect will often get you about 30% of the effect, and if its affordable then that is better than nothing if real drugs can't be purchased.

 

That's why I often give a pass on a product that isn't that expensive, because short of patent protection, the manuf may not want to spill be beans, or the required testing might require a higher price...

[The Computer Audiophile]

21 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Not what I'm trying to do. Mostly, I just want more objective information to be published on products I consider interesting. It's OK to ask for this, no?

 

I like more information and encourage it. Other may not. 

[esldude]

15 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

You're correct that was a test probe ... of course the MLCs are in the end connected to the scope... tribo-electric effect with cables ... where did you post this (refresh our memory)? In any case not all cables exhibit this and I was just saying that so called "burn in" may actually be the tribo-electric effects, etc, "settling down"... and I would expect this to occur fairly quickly.

I don't even remember where here I posted it.  Think I have done so twice.  No one is hearing tribo-electric effect as audio gear is normally used.

 

Here is the more recent time.  Unzip the file and listen.