jabbr

My point is that despite the actual audio, the brain modulates the perceived sound, including soundstage, in its own ways. That said it remains very difficult to modulate the SQ of a recording to give the realistic impression of actually being there.

Of course there are many musical works created for stereo or multitrack. For these there is no objective absolute sound, rather the intention of the artist(s), and studio engineer(s).

I entirely agree. In the same way that the visual system moves the eyes about so the high resolution macula "paints" a composite high resolution picture of the world, the head moves about painting the three dimensional soundstage. Different sounds originate from different 3D locations in the concert space. 2D projections don't have enough information to accurately represent -- unless of course the concert is mixed into R/L/C stereo and amplified, but for an acoustic unamplified performance, each instrument has its own x,y,z coordinate, and of course for the piano each string has its own unique line of origin.

Although its true that the visual system has a strong modulating effect on the soundstage, at least for live acoustic performances, there is indeed a soundstage. I very frequently close my eyes and listen. That is one of the reasons that I am saying that you can often hear reflections that depend on the architecture of the concert hall. Instruments from the back appear higher on the soundstage because their sound is reflected up and over instrument in the front (when listening from the orchestra). Many people find sitting at the front of the first balcony ideal because there is direct sound from these instruments. Concert halls do have a sound which is distinct from their visual appearance. That said, the real fact that visual cues do have a significant impact on soundstage tells us that non-audio cues have a strong impact on our listening experience. If you think a cable sounds better it actually sounds better.

You continue to miss the point: The reference, in this context, is the actual live performance in the concert hall. The reference isn’t limited to that it *is* that.

By definition “artificial reverb” is not the absolute sound. You can entirely synthesize a performance and love it but that’s not the same as a real performance. You can likewise synthesize a soundstage but that’s not a real soundstage. Now let’s see ... your “blind test” ... you are comparing listeners listening to a live unamplified symphony vs a recording? What was the study protocol?

The "much more accurate" is entirely subjective and not absolute, again in the context of this discussion I'm not so sure.

In the context of this thread about the absolute sound, I am saying that recordings/audio playback systems generally lack the “thereness”. Lets see (my own preference): classical hands down want the live experience, jazz also. Blues also. Bluegrass also. Amplified rock: depends on the sound system, bad sound can be really irritating but eg recordings of Grateful Dead simply remind me of concerts. U2 ... sitting at the back of the stadium doesn’t compare to recordings. etc ... pop: I’d rather not be there. Mariah Carey: doesn’t make a difference because live is recorded 😂

All the horns & percussion instruments are in the back. Only featured soloists come out front. Of course many recordings are multi mic’d and mixed but some are true stereo recordings. Not so simple to record and then playback a truly accurate symphony experience. Doing that would be the absolute sound.

They aren’t just a rare instrument dealer but new as well. We got my daughter’s viola there, actually several were shipped and she had an extensive ability to audition & compare.

Do you go to symphonies regularly? Look at the layout of the symphony. Simple fact: Some instruments are at all he front of the stage from left to right, but there are many layer of instruments going backward. When you hear the percussion instruments in the back (and sitting in the orchestra) you don’t hear the direct sound, rather the reflection. This appears as soundstage height because the sound literally has to go up and over the string sections. The recording mics are typically hung over the stage, so they do get direct sound, but no one is sitting close to there! in other cases there are multiple mics but then the sound is entirely reconstructed.

Indeed most electrical guitars are played through an on-stage typically tube guitar amp which is itself mic'd for stadium wide amplification. Consider the soundstage though. When viewed up close and personal the sound appears to follow the guitariist along the stage as he or she walks about .... but we know the sound is really coming from the fixed amp. Live soundstage is largely an illusion. When I close my eyes at a symphony concert, I can hear various instruments reflected off walls and various acoustic planes of the venue. I mean if I'm bored, otherwise just listening the the music.... Stereo reproduction is similarly an illusion. Understand that if the visual system can place instruments in space, so can other parts of the brain!

The amplified live performance *is* the real performance for a large swath of music. It *is* the real sound. That is the point of this discussion. Ok ok if you want to counter with electronically created studio music, fine, in that case there is no absolute sound. and no, if you are upfront center stage you can hear the onstage monitors so its not stereo. Has anyone here been to a Grateful Dead concert?

As you know, certain performers are more demanding regarding the sound system than others.

I'm just discussing this as an experience, either there or not. There are different live experiences with different soundstage reproductions. In some large concerts for example, there are two huge arrays of speakers, right and left. Everything is mixed and then fed. Possibly that's why I prefer to get really close so that sound gets projected back, and I am hearing more what comes from the stage itself. In other cases I clearly call feeling the base coming up from my feet, having been transmitted underground through yards of a muddy field, packed with people. Crazy. In other cases there is a string quartet in your room and the soundstage becomes crystal clear with direct visualization of the instruments.