USB audio cracked... finally!

[Summit]

16 hours ago, PeterSt said:

 

... which all does not exist. 

 

16 hours ago, PeterSt said:

 

... which all does not exist. 

[PeterSt]

Yup, it still does not exist.

Btw, it still does not exist.

[Summit]

19 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

Yup, it still does not exist.

Btw, it still does not exist.

 

What doesn’t exist?

[PeterSt]

 

1 minute ago, Summit said:

What doesn’t exist?

 

 

16 hours ago, PeterSt said:

I2S over LAN, USB, S/PDIF and AES/EBU.

 

That.

 

LAN = Local Area Network. In the end this is a protocol. No i2s goes over that.

USB is a protocol. No i2s goes over that.

S/PDIF is a protocol. No i2s goes over that.

AES/EBU is differential S/PDIF. No i2s goes over that.

 

Now, that wasn't hard, was it ? 

 

I can imagine that you confuse with an Ethernet cable (used for LAN connections) because such a cable can be used to transport i2s data.

 

I can imagine that you are again confused by HDMI cables which are also used to transport i2s data (you did not mention HDMI but showed a picture of it, I think).

 

I can not imagine how you confuse USB with this all, but you really would not be the first to ask for an i2s input to the DAC because people have a nice USB to I2S converter. Well, those people are confused for life. Haha.

 

And I can most certainly not imagine how you see i2s travel over S/PDIF.

 

All where i2s matters is where it is directly output like with the Pi boards or with hacked soundcards. Or with the Pink Faun card, for that matter. But all of those are for the worse, for one way or the other. Well, that is so until the contrary is somehow proven by listening. And I tell you right away: there will be no single way to compare e.g. USB vs direct i2s by measurement.

But small prediction: Marce will tell you he can. Just look at the eye diagram in the i2s data or look with some inexistent device at the output and observe jitter. But at second thought he won't do that because it is him who tells you that "outward" i2s will be too long for the application you have in mind.

So I better predict nothing for real.

 

[Summit]

18 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

 

 

 

That.

 

LAN = Local Area Network. In the end this is a protocol. No i2s goes over that.

USB is a protocol. No i2s goes over that.

S/PDIF is a protocol. No i2s goes over that.

AES/EBU is differential S/PDIF. No i2s goes over that.

 

Now, that wasn't hard, was it ? 

 

I can imagine that you confuse with an Ethernet cable (used for LAN connections) because such a cable can be used to transport i2s data.

 

I can imagine that you are again confused by HDMI cables which are also used to transport i2s data (you did not mention HDMI but showed a picture of it, I think).

 

I can not imagine how you confuse USB with this all, but you really would not be the first to ask for an i2s input to the DAC because people have a nice USB to I2S converter. Well, those people are confused for life. Haha.

 

And I can most certainly not imagine how you see i2s travel over S/PDIF.

 

All where i2s matters is where it is directly output like with the Pi boards or with hacked soundcards. Or with the Pink Faun card, for that matter. But all of those are for the worse, for one way or the other. Well, that is so until the contrary is somehow proven by listening. And I tell you right away: there will be no single way to compare e.g. USB vs direct i2s by measurement.

But small prediction: Marce will tell you he can. Just look at the eye diagram in the i2s data or look with some inexistent device at the output and observe jitter. But at second thought he won't do that because it is him who tells you that "outward" i2s will be too long for the application you have in mind.

So I better predict nothing for real.

 

 

I have never said that i2s travel on USB or S/PDIF, I have stated the opposite! It is you that is confusing things, please read my post again.

 

I wrote “With my former DAC the I2S over LVDS was better sounding than: I2S over LAN, USB, S/PDIF and AES/EBU.”

 

There is no standard for I2S over LVDS and I and many other have used a HDMI cable with HDMI connectors to pass the balanced I2S LVDS signal. It is not a HDMI protocol that is used and the same with the unbalanced I2S that is transmitted over a LAN cable.

[mansr]

The ADC in the studio outputs I2S. The DAC takes I2S as input. Thus we could all be said to be using I2S over CD or whatever.

[PeterSt]

23 hours ago, Summit said:

I have some experience with I2S, both as an I2S signal and as I2S over LVDS. With my former DAC the I2S over LVDS was better sounding than: I2S over LAN, USB, S/PDIF and AES/EBU. The point I like to make is that no matter which digital protocol you/we chose

 

Yes. And it makes no sense.

 

3 hours ago, Summit said:

It is not a HDMI protocol

 

HDMI protocol ?

 

All right. We are ready to learn from you how you see "i2s over USB". Here's a hint of what's possible:

i2s over UTP/STP/etc.;

i2s over LVDS;

i2s over HDMI;

i2s over flat band cable;

i2s over door bell wires;

i2s over PCB traces.

 

Btw, it is all not important. But I tripped over your "I2S over LVDS was better sounding than:" because what's behind the "than" would make no sound at all. In the end it is quite important to understand a bit how these things work, because, for example, i2s over LVDS should not only sound better because of better quality in general, but it mainly is about the longer distance LVDS allows for this inherently weak signal (which normally is highly subject to jitter because it is right in that domain of being receptive for that). And this compared to HDMI, which in itself is better again than e.g. STP which is better than UTP which clearly is better than door bell wire.

A protocol (like USB) is not related to this anywhere.

[fas42]

On 1/2/2019 at 11:20 AM, fas42 said:

Personally, I would continue to try and squeeze the best sound out of that DAC from computer source. As a way of finding out more about what one has to do to make it happen. I just happened to stay with CDs for historical reasons - I've largely tuned out of fiddling with computers these days; they're a means to an end, and absolutely nothing more.

 

As an example of how I would pursue this, assuming I had a Yggdrasil  and wanted best computer sound - and having just done a very quick, cursory look at peoples' experiences - I would get hold of the 'best' USB to SPDIF translator, and use optical feed. The Yggy is sensitive to the quality of the optical, so a short length of high quality optical cable. And I would go to great detail to physically stabilise the USB/SPDIF unit, and the optical cable along its length - the idea would be to make the translator and link to the DAC be as if they are 'glued' to the DAC box.

[sandyk]

9 minutes ago, fas42 said:

The Yggy is sensitive to the quality of the optical, so a short length of high quality optical cable.

 

 Is it mainly due to a typical Toslink cable of a reasonable length , or the quality of the output from the TOTX Optical  transmitter ?

 

https://media.digikey.com/pdf/data sheets/toshiba pdfs/fiber-optic devices toslink.pdf

[fas42]

Couldn't say - I haven't looked closely at the ins and outs of optical links, so why in a specific case is something to be investigated.

 

I noted in comments that people didn't like Toslink for the Yggy, but were positive to better cable. If the Yggy had been engineered to the best standards for the optical input then the cable shouldn't matter. But it does - therefore, go with that requirement.

[sandyk]

19 minutes ago, fas42 said:

If the Yggy had been engineered to the best standards for the optical input then the cable shouldn't matter.

 

Then again, even a few of the CA Objective members prefer to use expensive Glass Optical Fibre cables, and this is with different  DACs

[GeneZ]

So what happens if your streaming and internet are via fiber optics?   The signal is degraded?  

 

I just tried a very good optical cable just last night.  Pangea is making a very well made one with a strict attention to details in its construction.  It sounds quit good. Very clean sound.   https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PGOPR

 

One interesting thing was noted..   With a USB cable the Windows Sound Properties setting defaults to 14410 hz - 16 bits.   But,  with the optical?  The default sets Sound @48000 hz - 16 bits.

 

Here is a real eye opener I learned a few years ago.  Optical cable will sound better in one direction than the other. Yes,  its directional.

[fas42]

Makes sense that it could be so. If the receiver is sensitive to the precise qualities of how the light is modulated, and the manufacturing process of the fibre is not perfectly "symmetrical" in how it forms the tube, then one direction may favour SQ.

[GeneZ]

59 minutes ago, fas42 said:

Makes sense that it could be so. If the receiver is sensitive to the precise qualities of how the light is modulated, and the manufacturing process of the fibre is not perfectly "symmetrical" in how it forms the tube, then one direction may favour SQ.

 

That may be why optical is not always viewed favorably by some who have tried it.  Until Mapleshade Audio pointed out the directionality of optical cable it was the furthest thing from my mind.

[sandyk]

4 hours ago, GeneZ said:

So what happens if your streaming and internet are via fiber optics?   The signal is degraded?  

 

That's an entirely different scenario. You would be using way better (expensive at present ) gear and far better optical cable capable of vastly greater bandwidth.

[GeneZ]

2 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

That's an entirely different scenario. You would be using way better (expensive at present ) gear and far better optical cable capable of vastly greater bandwidth.

  We only would need the receiver for the signal that is transmitted by the Internet Provider who has the expensive equipment already.  Right now a simple router receives the optic cable signal. And, only three feet of that kind of cable can not be that expensive.   I think it can be done for audio if someone put their mind to it.  They could stop wasting time fussing with the USB.

[Miska]

8 hours ago, GeneZ said:

One interesting thing was noted..   With a USB cable the Windows Sound Properties setting defaults to 14410 hz - 16 bits.   But,  with the optical?  The default sets Sound @48000 hz - 16 bits.

 

This depends on your audio interface driver, not on the type of media used...

[fas42]

15 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

That's an entirely different scenario. You would be using way better (expensive at present ) gear and far better optical cable capable of vastly greater bandwidth.

 

Note, again, that I always come from the angle that expensive gear is not needed for high quality sound; nominally, the 'better' stuff has key issues addressed in its implementation, which is why it would give improved SQ. Unfortunately, the industry has gone into a show off, or "I've got a weird slant on what's needed!" thinking, to a large degree - and the consumer 'suffers'; he's not getting something that really solves his SQ issues.

 

If one is prepared to DIY the understanding of why a particular setup is not up to scratch, then much can be gained. As has been said often, the value for money of some current products is remarkable - spending silly money to get top notch sound is not smart; but spending time analysing what's holding back the possible quality is.