A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[Neal.Audio]

^ @mikicasellas

 

That puts things into focus a bit more... I thought from your first post that the mac was involved only in scenario #1. 

 

Could you explain the exact chain, in detail, for both scenarios? E.g. wired or wireless, ports used, cables used...

[the_doc735]

7 hours ago, Chopin75 said:

First off, can you describe in more detail what you mean by sounding better ? And is it on all type of recordings/Hi Res/low Res/DSD etc?

More detail, more depth, more width, deeper bass, cleaner trebles, less noise and distortion, things like that I suppose. Yes all recordings. I only use PCM, flac, MP3 etc. No DSD.

MANY THANKS!

[the_doc735]

13 hours ago, the_doc735 said:

this is novel or weird ?

 

somehow the roon crashed?

I couldn't install albums on my NAS/SSD via a memory USB stick either.

I had played an album BEFORE this happened and it sounded rubbish!

I gave up and unplugged everything and rebooted and re-installed roon to the laptop controller.

I still couldn't get any albums on the NAS from it's USB input!

So, I gave up for a while.

I then plugged the USB memory stick into the laptop controller and loaded an album to roon via the USB memory stick.

The controller laptop is linked to my router/access point by WLAN/wireless.

This album played back from the router via the rest of the chain and it sounded great compared to the dedicated NAS/server!

Can anyone explain this conundrum please?

To compare:

an everyday domestic laptop with thousands of processes firing off all the time with a bog standard SMPS and noisy tiny fan; sounds better than a:

dedicated NAS with good quality SSD's & noctura top of range fan with speed resistor and SOtM fan filter + SOtM sata filters and LPSU: ..... how can the laptop sound better than the dedicated NAS?

 

this was ALL an accident, I didn't mean to do it!

 

This throws up obvious questions like; is my dedicated NAS server up to the job/ up to the task! Common sense says that the laptop shouldn't sound better than the dedicated/custom NAS which was built for the task in hand and only serves an audio purpose! Compared to an all purpose bog standard laptop!

 

Here's a pic of the chain:

AMENDED PICTURE:

Amended picture on earlier post....

 

[the_doc735]

In the spirit of experimentation in finding new and novel ways to achieve better sound quality:

 

....would this be better as a server than a synology ds218+, W/LPSU,...

 

MSI Z370i GAMING PRO CARBON AC mini-ITX + Intel® HD Integrated Graphics 630. 

Intel Core i7 Coffee Lake 8700 SE Gen.8 2.9GHz LGA1151 TDP 35W CPU. 

Pink Faun i2s Bridge PCI-e (expansion/riser) Card. 

Samsung (250GB) 960 M.2 (2280) Evo PCIe 3.0 (x4) NVMe 3D V-NAND SSD MZ-V6E250BW (x1). 

Patriot Viper 4 16GB Dual Ch. DDR4 3000MHz PC4-24000 DIMM PV416G300C6K. 

Streacom st-fc9b-opt-alpha PC Fanless Chassis. 

Seasonic Prime Ultra ’80+’ Titanium 650 Watt ATX M-PSU. 

 

Many thanks!

[bobfa]

1 hour ago, the_doc735 said:

would this be better as a server than a synology ds218+, W/LPSU,...

I do not think that anyone can accurately answer your query.  I want to generalize some of the findings on this thread but it is hard.  So this is an experiment. These are my words not a consensus from the community.

 

Bob’s server design considerations

 

1. Power supplies in servers make a difference.  Replacing a standard PC power supply with an LPS makes a difference.

2. Simplifying the PC by removing noisy components seems to help.  No SATA devices.  Storage is more complex.

3. Get the fans out.  Fan drivers are part of the noise we have seen in many systems.

4. The operating system makes a difference.  There is a lot of experimenting with Audio Linux these days that really seems to work well.

5. I think that using a more powerful processor can improve sound.  This may be a latency thing like operating system changes, MAY??

6. Network bridging still helps. So two network interfaces in the server.

 

Bob’s system design considerations

 

1. Designing some sort of cleaner interface for storage seems to help.  Special USB cards, external drives with linear power supplies.  

2. Network designs to the primary system with WiFi, fiber, special switches adds to the mix influences sound.

3. Network bridges to the USB DAC are part of the extended system mix.

4. Again software design. Playing with Squeezelite in the endpoint

5. Running operating systems in RAM, loading music into RAM, all very interesting.

5. Endpoint clocking, etc.

 

*** this does not even get into, speakers, amps, analog cables, headphones,  The stuff that makes sound.***

**** Oh and there is the room.  Look at what @Superdad did for his room or many others ****

***** Finally why are you doing this? *****

 

So what do you want to experiment with?

 

All of this takes time and money, and well a lot of grit.  You have to listen carefully and involve others.  You have to take time, document and be critical.  If you read what @austinpop has been doing with DACs you get an idea of the level of work this is.  If you look at what @hifi25nl has done with Audiolinix you will see some of the work that goes into OS design.  There are so many others to mention, including Chris for putting up with this rabble!  I know that I am a bit crazy playing in several parts of world to get something better for myself and my customers.  I have built both a server and an endpoint here for others to see.  I am not going to write an OS for example.  I really like what @austinpop has done with DACs and his endpoint design with the clocks, etc.

 

So what do you want to do?  Where do you want to spend time?  Step back from it for a bit.  I do systems designs for people as a business, and this is the hard part!  Slowing down long enough to get it right.  You can have someone like @lmitche build you a server or an endpoint,  you can built it on your own.  You could go commercial.  Open your thinking out a bit.

 

Do not answer your own question today or even tomorrow.  Come back next week with a plan.  Create a Trello project, or put it on paper.  Put 20 hours into just listening to music.

 

Bob

[austinpop]

5 minutes ago, bobfa said:

I do not think that anyone can accurately answer your query.  I want to generalize some of the findings on this thread but it is hard.  So this is an experiment. These are my words not a consensus from the community.

 

Bob’s server design considerations

 

1. Power supplies in servers make a difference.  Replacing a standard PC power supply with an LPS makes a difference.

2. Simplifying the PC by removing noisy components seems to help.  No SATA devices.  Storage is more complex.

3. Get the fans out.  Fan drivers are part of the noise we have seen in many systems.

4. The operating system makes a difference.  There is a lot of experimenting with Audio Linux these days that really seems to work well.

5. I think that using a more powerful processor can improve sound.  This may be a latency thing like operating system changes, MAY??

6. Network bridging still helps. So two network interfaces in the server.

 

Bob’s system design considerations

 

1. Designing some sort of cleaner interface for storage seems to help.  Special USB cards, external drives with linear power supplies.  

2. Network designs to the primary system with WiFi, fiber, special switches adds to the mix influences sound.

3. Network bridges to the USB DAC are part of the extended system mix.

4. Again software design. Playing with Squeezelite in the endpoint

5. Running operating systems in RAM, loading music into RAM, all very interesting.

5. Endpoint clocking, etc.

 

*** this does not even get into, speakers, amps, analog cables, headphones,  The stuff that makes sound.***

**** Oh and there is the room.  Look at what @Superdad did for his room or many others ****

***** Finally why are you doing this? *****

 

So what do you want to experiment with?

 

All of this takes time and money, and well a lot of grit.  You have to listen carefully and involve others.  You have to take time, document and be critical.  If you read what @austinpop has been doing with DACs you get an idea of the level of work this is.  If you look at what @hifi25nl has done with Audiolinix you will see some of the work that goes into OS design.  There are so many others to mention, including Chris for putting up with this rabble!  I know that I am a bit crazy playing in several parts of world to get something better for myself and my customers.  I have built both a server and an endpoint here for others to see.  I am not going to write an OS for example.  I really like what @austinpop has done with DACs and his endpoint design with the clocks, etc.

 

So what do you want to do?  Where do you want to spend time?  Step back from it for a bit.  I do systems designs for people as a business, and this is the hard part!  Slowing down long enough to get it right.  You can have someone like @lmitche build you a server or an endpoint,  you can built it on your own.  You could go commercial.  Open your thinking out a bit.

 

Do not answer your own question today or even tomorrow.  Come back next week with a plan.  Create a Trello project, or put it on paper.  Put 20 hours into just listening to music.

 

Bob

 

Brilliant post, Bob. Sage advice indeed. 

[ted_b]

Bob, great post.  I especially like the final point: put 20 hours into just listening to music.  Although it seems to be an obvious point to many, some will fail  to realize that you can't hurry this stuff, especially when everyone's listening biases and environments are different.  It's a balancing act, but if person A likes things a little "left" and person B likes things a little "further left" their next steps in the process are quite different.  There is no way one will realize this unless he/she stops and listens to the music for several hours.  This will allow the listener to evaluate, enjoy, evaluate, enjoy and then finally make an informed decision on what to do next.  If the "enjoy" part is not realized then this whole experiment will frustrate the hell out of you!! 

 

As one who has been uncomfortably on the sidelines for a year (I usually live for this stuff) I am going to have to take my own advice x100.  I want it all, and I want it now!  But a new room, a new set of challenges, hell...listening at 6000 ft!  All of this will be new to me, and i need to reconstruct my best listening system very deliberately.   Gulp!    Bob's reiteration of the best of Rajiv, Larry and the rest of the thought leaders is a great reminder.  Thx again. 

[davide256]

For most  hobby money is  not unlimited. So we logically try to get best bang for the buck spent. The nice thing about AL is that for a relatively

modest solution investment in a server, endpoint NUC and quality power supply you can get really excellent sound. I'd estimate that basic cost at around $2300

(i7NUC/Pentium NUC/ Uptone Audio JS2 or 2 SR4 power supplies/Lush 2 USB cable).  With the only "fiddly" part being the BIOS configuration of the NUC's.

 

I suspect that upgrading beyond that point isn't going to be worth it to many of us... law of diminishing returns and exponentially increasing system cost in order to

hear meaningful improvements

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, bobfa said:

Put 20 hours into just listening to music.

 

Words for all of us to live by--EVERY week!  

 

Sadly, because my desk is in my studio, and because playing my system draws me in and I would not get work done, I don't play it during the day. And by the time the evening comes around I am anxious to get out of my chair and away from the office. 

[bobfa]

3 hours ago, austinpop said:

Brilliant post, Bob. Sage advice indeed. 

Note to self:  Follow my own advice!  

 

I am "driven" and I have a set of long and short term goals in mind.  You will see my proposal about building NUC based experimental hardware.  There is so much more to do and learn.  What is new today is old-hat and in the gutter tomorrow.

 

In the end, I have never lost sight of the fact that I love music in my life.  I still do not have a way that makes it simple for family members to play music on the system.  I would love to have something like Siri or Alex interaction with the system.  I want SoundCloud and YouTube.  I want my room to sound better.

 

Like most everyone else I have to pay for my toys!  

 

[Soundtrack from the movie Titanic playing right now]

[bobfa]

3 minutes ago, the_doc735 said:

Good post "BUT!" I didn't ask how to build a NUC or highlight important considerations! I asked if a PC D.I.Y. build could be a better server than a synology NAS? All you needed to say was: "I'm not qualified to make a call like that".

I don't agree with the 20 hours listening experience either. For me it's more about the immediacy, the stark contrast and initial impact that a change in a system/chain makes when you first experience it. I know within a few bars of music whether I have made things better or worse. If I listened incessantly to the album over and over again there is a risk that my ears would become accustomed to a particular flavour of sound and end up convincing myself that it is better - when in actual fact all that has happened is I have simply become accustomed to that sound, things have become very 'familiar'. It hits me straight away from the gut or it doesn't hit me at all - ever!

But I do appreciate your lengthy involvement and somewhat technical explanation - many thanks!

So, do you actually design and build your own PCB's and furnish them with your chosen components and then fabricate a housing? OR do you buy a NUC and prefabricated case and put them together yourself. I'm a bit vague on how you make/build endpoints and servers? Hope you can enlighten me as to your procedure?

Cheers!

 

First, I really wish you would tone down some of your messaging.  I do not know if we are helping each other out here.  Also, this is getting off topic for the thread.

 

I do not feel that there is a single answer to the multitude of questions that were buried in your  first question.  I know that a custom built server will blow away general purpose Synology NAS in the right environment. I have done that exact test in my own system.  If that answers your question more directly.  

 

As for what I am looking at I would only be dealing with the Intel NUC board.  I am not trying to build my own boards. Only single sourcing a system design.  There is a thread on this I just started.  This is all just a vision for now. 

 

 

 I just looked at your profile and you seem to have a rather extensive system design.  I cannot tell from that or your recent posts what you are trying to accomplish.  You might consider starting a thread about what you are trying to accomplish.

 

Finally, you asked a question about the NUC and RAM operations.  We really do not know all of the effects of upstream gear at this point. I do not know of a production system in a D to D endpoint where both the OS and the data stream are actually in RAM at all times.  I do know from my own work running Roon in both my own custom server and endpoint that having the operating system loaded and running in RAM improves sound quality.  I created two threads on the hardware I built.    

 

 

I have participated in this thread for a long time and there is so much here that just cannot be distilled down into yes or no questions.  We need HELP and more people experimenting and testing, listening and documenting their results.  My summary above was more than a simple response to your request.  It was an attempt to summarize in my view the current state of the flow here.  I can see a lot of ways to continue experimenting. 

[davide256]

56 minutes ago, the_doc735 said:

why don't you try reading the question:

with NUC/AL is the O/S & music loaded into RAM on the endpoint or not. It's simple enough! Yes Or no? There's no need to get all superior on me! It;s just a straight forward question, before I buy a NUC! As you have quite obviously done loads of work with NUC;s yourself you should know if both the O/S & music are in RAM or not?

You can drive yourself crazy by trying to insist on textbook reasoning explanations vs having faith in the empirical experimentation results of those willing to put in sweat equity.

 

The main result I see from AL is that it shows the biggest problem we had been facing with computer audio was not the hardware but rather that the OS and player software we had been using created severe limits. How else to explain why testers can now  chuck  expensive proprietary HW implementations for server /endpoint devices and use off the shelf NUC's instead to achieve a much higher level of playback performance.

 

The AL RAM part matters  at endpoint.

 

The AL software is critical at the server... RAM loading maybe not so much.

 

If you forced me to use AL at one end only, I would choose the server.

[Johnseye]

3 minutes ago, davide256 said:

You can drive yourself crazy by trying to insist on textbook reasoning explanations vs having faith in the empirical experimentation results of those willing to put in sweat equity.

 

The main result I see from AL is that it shows the biggest problem we had been facing with computer audio was not the hardware but rather that the OS and player software we had been using created severe limits. How else to explain why testers can now  chuck  expensive proprietary HW implementations for server /endpoint devices and use off the shelf NUC's instead to achieve a much higher level of playback performance.

 

The AL RAM part matters  at endpoint.

 

The AL software is critical at the server... RAM loading maybe not so much.

 

If you forced me to use AL at one end only, I would choose the server.

 

So I use AL loaded into RAM for both server and endpoint.  I find that both matter, but more significantly at the endpoint.  I've used Windows as the server and AL for the endpoint.  My choice would be AL as the endpoint if I had to choose, but prefer both.

 

HQPlayer can also load an NAA into RAM.  I use HQPlayer and find Jussi's NAA close to AL but I prefer AL.

 

I think this newer line of NUCs has had the biggest impact because I can stream from Windows to Jussi's NAA and get a marked improvement.  AL just takes things further for the positive.

 

To each their own.  There are 31 flavors of course

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 hour ago, the_doc735 said:

why don't you try reading the question:

with NUC/AL is the O/S & music loaded into RAM on the endpoint or not. It's simple enough! Yes Or no? There's no need to get all superior on me! It;s just a straight forward question, before I buy a NUC! As you have quite obviously done loads of work with NUC;s yourself you should know if both the O/S & music are in RAM or not?

@the_doc735 Nobody is getting paid to offer you advice or information here. It's all people giving their time and expertise. If you can't get along with others, without YELLING and being abrasive, you'll have to leave. 

[Dutch]

[off topic]

I really dislike the people that demand so much attention while contributing so little, especially in a wonderful thread like this read by many people all over the world. Personally I always think twice before posting here and in general first ask myself the question: will what I share or ask be useful to others? If not I tend to refrain from posting it.

 

It also should not be that hard to determine if you’re ‘on the same level of understanding as the average poster here. If you feel you’re not I’d use the pretty good search/or advanced search feature first before asking a question. If you do ask, be a bit humble and try to explain what you want or think clearly. This is not Facebook.

[/off topic]

[Ralf11]

People have done work to create an index for this thread - why not spend some time using it - within your cost & time confines?

 

That will reduce the amount of work to clean up the thread too

[bobfa]

15 minutes ago, the_doc735 said:

tone down? I just asked a question, I didn't swear, I wasn't rude and I didn't threaten anyone. And I said many thanks. I don't understand this at all?

It is not off topic at all as I am asking about NUC/AL/RAM/endpoint/server & PC experimentation, why is that off topic please?

 

multitude? Surely all I asked was: "is a PC DIY server better than a stock synology NAS", how is that a multitude please?

 

I am trying to accomplish hearing a sound that I am happy with. I don't know how starting a thread saying what I wish to accomplish would attract any positive remarks going on the way austinpop addressed me in post #13318. He also seems to think that I am violent, rude and threatening, even though I HAVE NEVER been like that on here! I also said sorry and apologised to him too.

 

But there are some questions that can be answered with yes or no, like the one I asked austinpop. (e.g. is O/S & music in RAM on your NUC/AL device).

 

Again I am very sorry and apologise but all I am doing is answering the points raised in your posts! There is nothing intentionally hostile or belligerent in those questions and replies.

 

Sorry! 

 

"DOC'. etal

 

Please, please slow down a little.  Maybe we have a difference in the Kings English vs US English.  I learn in a different manner. And forget in more ways than I should.  I am trying to help here.

 

First "DOC" your question is not yes or no it is VERY COMPLEX.  We do not know the answer to a lot of them.  The custom server vs NAS is basically a no contest.  You can build a server that sounds better than a NAS.  Your specific selection of components would be impossible for us to respond to.  So I tried to summarize about two years of history here about servers and systems in general. An example in your list is the power supply.  That was not optimal; some sort of linear power supply would change things.  Does this help?

 

The NUC RAM/AL question is even more complex.  We do not have "THE" answer.  For example the playback software is a black box we do not understand how it works.  The network interfaces to the various devices in our systems and how they interact to influence sound are sometimes unfathomable.  Changing the software from Roon to squeezelite changes the sound.  Changing the buffers in squeezelite changes the sound.  Slow processors with carefully designed boards and interfaces are amazing.  Today, just maybe, a specific off the shelf mother board from Intel may be better.

 

I can design a  (have designed) systems that sound great.  But every day we learn more and more.  What has been right just a year ago is not right today and what is right today will change tomorrow.  This thread and several others are on the bleeding edge of our learning.  If you came to me today and said "Bob what sounds the best?"  My answer would have to be very well thought out.  I would consider the person, budget, location, current system design.  A system I outlined last year might not be optimal for today.  My personal system is in constant flux.  I have reached the limits of my speakers and my room.  What will I change next?

 

Get some rest, have a good evening. 

 

Bob

[Chopin75]

39 minutes ago, bobfa said:

"DOC'. etal

 

Please, please slow down a little.  Maybe we have a difference in the Kings English vs US English.  I learn in a different manner. And forget in more ways than I should.  I am trying to help here.

 

First "DOC" your question is not yes or no it is VERY COMPLEX.  We do not know the answer to a lot of them.  The custom server vs NAS is basically a no contest.  You can build a server that sounds better than a NAS.  Your specific selection of components would be impossible for us to respond to.  So I tried to summarize about two years of history here about servers and systems in general. An example in your list is the power supply.  That was not optimal; some sort of linear power supply would change things.  Does this help?

 

The NUC RAM/AL question is even more complex.  We do not have "THE" answer.  For example the playback software is a black box we do not understand how it works.  The network interfaces to the various devices in our systems and how they interact to influence sound are sometimes unfathomable.  Changing the software from Roon to squeezelite changes the sound.  Changing the buffers in squeezelite changes the sound.  Slow processors with carefully designed boards and interfaces are amazing.  Today, just maybe, a specific off the shelf mother board from Intel may be better.

 

I can design a  (have designed) systems that sound great.  But every day we learn more and more.  What has been right just a year ago is not right today and what is right today will change tomorrow.  This thread and several others are on the bleeding edge of our learning.  If you came to me today and said "Bob what sounds the best?"  My answer would have to be very well thought out.  I would consider the person, budget, location, current system design.  A system I outlined last year might not be optimal for today.  My personal system is in constant flux.  I have reached the limits of my speakers and my room.  What will I change next?

 

Get some rest, have a good evening. 

 

Bob

Great points here, Bob! This thread is so chaotic now that I cannot relocate earlier questions.  Someone mentioned music is not normally loaded into RAM because of large amount of storage needed for music. I think (no offense here if I misunderstood) when one means loading music into RAM, it is just one track or 1 album max. This can be done often. My euphony OS is doing this. Entire track or maybe Album can be loaded into RAM, and it is supposed to sound better this way. I have not done careful comparison, but presumably this would reduce the influence of computer noise etc...  I am not sure if there would be enough RAM if something like AL is also loaded into RAM and then also loading entire track on RAM. With 8 GB RAM it should work. 

Someone mentioned Pinkfaun USB bridge - that I think is a great device which I use and is likely a significant upgrade as it reclocks the signal just before it leaves the PC/streamer to the DAC. So jitter is much reduced, to the point that galvanic isolation may not even be needed down stream (from my personal experience).  I think I2S bridge from Pinkfaun may even be better but it does not do DXD/DSD. 

Hope this helps. 

 

Software for music playback makes huge difference and highly complex, depending a lot on the OS, if it is windows, vs MAC or Linux

e.g.

HQplayer sounds very different from others due to its heavy duty filtering, feels like it is remastering in real time - better or just more artificial ?? you decide

DSD playback can sound more varied than PCM depending on the software player, and may be worse or better on some player where as the PCM playback can be similar. It requires more CPU even if we are not doing upsampling (native DSD only). 

 

 

[austinpop]

OK that's it. I am going to go back and delete a bunch of posts. This has gone on long enough.

 

@the_doc735 - cease and desist any further posts on this thread.

[greenleo]

11 minutes ago, Chopin75 said:

Great points here, Bob! This thread is so chaotic now that I cannot relocate earlier questions.  Someone mentioned music is not normally loaded into RAM because of large amount of storage needed for music. I think (no offense here if I misunderstood) when one means loading music into RAM, it is just one track or 1 album max. This can be done often. My euphony OS is doing this. Entire track or maybe Album can be loaded into RAM, and it is supposed to sound better this way. I have not done careful comparison, but presumably this would reduce the influence of computer noise etc...  I am not sure if there would be enough RAM if something like AL is also loaded into RAM and then also loading entire track on RAM. With 8 GB RAM it should work. 

Someone mentioned Pinkfaun USB bridge - that I think is a great device which I use and is likely a significant upgrade as it reclocks the signal just before it leaves the PC/streamer to the DAC. So jitter is much reduced, to the point that galvanic isolation may not even be needed down stream (from my personal experience).  I think I2S bridge from Pinkfaun may even be better but it does not do DXD/DSD. 

Hope this helps. 

 

Software for music playback makes huge difference and highly complex, depending a lot on the OS, if it is windows, vs MAC or Linux

e.g.

HQplayer sounds very different from others due to its heavy duty filtering, feels like it is remastering in real time - better or just more artificial ?? you decide

DSD playback can sound more varied than PCM depending on the software player, and may be worse or better on some player where as the PCM playback can be similar. It requires more CPU even if we are not doing upsampling (native DSD only). 

 

 

GI is for noise isolation, not that much jitter related.

 

Set the filters of the HQP to none to make it bit perfect AFAP.

[Chopin75]

2 minutes ago, greenleo said:

GI is for noise isolation, not that much jitter related.

 

Set the filters of the HQP to none to make it bit perfect AFAP.

Thanks for the info. Whatever the audio bride has done or maybe it is also the silent PC with LPS that really improves, the GI is no longer as necessary. Maybe it is really the noise that has been reduced from LPS. I would need to compare difference between Pinkfaun Audio bridge vs generic USB output from the PC and if GI would make a difference (if I bother to at all!)

[greenleo]

Just now, Chopin75 said:

Thanks for the info. Whatever the audio bride has done or maybe it is also the silent PC with LPS that really improves, the GI is no longer as necessary. Maybe it is really the noise that has been reduced from LPS. I would need to compare difference between Pinkfaun Audio bridge vs generic USB output from the PC and if GI would make a difference (if I bother to at all!)

I get your point when using a single box solution.  However, GI between different devices, say endpoint and DAC is very likely needed.

 

When 2-box or 3-box solutions are being used, GI is needed.

[Chopin75]

2 minutes ago, greenleo said:

I get your point when using a single box solution.  However, GI between different devices, say endpoint and DAC is very likely needed.

 

When 2-box or 3-box solutions are being used, GI is needed.

Interesting, is it because each box will have its own additional noise added? But would that be much reduced with LPS for each box too ?, (sorry if my question is stupid) 

[greenleo]

7 hours ago, davide256 said:

For most  hobby money is  not unlimited. So we logically try to get best bang for the buck spent. The nice thing about AL is that for a relatively

modest solution investment in a server, endpoint NUC and quality power supply you can get really excellent sound. I'd estimate that basic cost at around $2300

(i7NUC/Pentium NUC/ Uptone Audio JS2 or 2 SR4 power supplies/Lush 2 USB cable).  With the only "fiddly" part being the BIOS configuration of the NUC's.

 

I suspect that upgrading beyond that point isn't going to be worth it to many of us... law of diminishing returns and exponentially increasing system cost in order to

hear meaningful improvements

As a matter of fact, my system is much humbler.  Using an old DIY server that I built two years ago (I guess most of us have a PC lying around), My 7C NUC + LPS + AL license is less than $900.  Given that the LPS is always reusable, the extra cost was only $400, very much negligible in this hobby.

 

I'm very happy with my system.  Everytime I use it for music, everytime I'm happy.

[austinpop]

OK I've deleted a LOT of recent posts, including my own. 

 

Now, where were we?