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A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming


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Most important: please realize this thread is about bleeding edge experimentation and discovery. No one has The Answer™. If you are not into tweaking, just know that you can have a musically satisfying system without doing any of the nutty things we do here.

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36 minutes ago, jimbones said:

I am running Roon ROCK on an 8th Gen NUC and my DAC is the original Auralic Vega. I want to get an SOTM or Sonore (or other equal) I don't know what model to buy and don't want to waste money where it is not needed. Can anyone suggest an appropriate make/model for my set up? Thanks

 

Have you actually hooked the NUC to the DAC?  How does it sound?  I am using the NUC in place of my UltraRendu.  Now I am only running roonbridge on it.  I run roon server on another machine.  

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55 minutes ago, LTG2010 said:

If you parallel LT3045's you lower the noisefloor tenfold, but if you them in series, which is the suggestion, the noisefloor could theoretically be reduced one hundred fold. 

But theories are theories and need to be tested, as regulators have their own sound signatures.

 

 Newclassd has I believe a new 5A ultra wide band regulator out that might be interesting for the DIY’ers. One single regulator or two in series maybe.

 

http://www.newclassd.com/index.php?page=2&hv=1

Meitner ma1 v2 dac,  Sovereign preamp and power amp,

DIY speakers, scan speak illuminator.

Raal Requisite VM-1a -> SR-1a with Accurate Sound convolution.

Under development:

NUC7i7dnbe, Euphony Stylus, Qobuz.

Modded Buffalo-fiber-EtherRegen, DC3- Isoregen, Lush^2

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7 hours ago, RickyV said:

If you parallel LT3045's you lower the noisefloor tenfold, but if you them in series, which is the suggestion, the noisefloor could theoretically be reduced one hundred fold. 

 No !

You can't reduce the LT3045 voltage regulator's noise floor further by putting them in series, any more than you can by daisy chaining the old LM317 etc. You will achieve some Pre regulation though, which makes the job of the next one easier.

 However, if you use the standard value and type bypass capacitors for the LT3045s you WILL gain a little added HF detail which may not be such a good idea, and perhaps result in a tonal imbalance.

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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4 hours ago, sandyk said:

 No !

You can't reduce the LT3045 voltage regulator's noise floor further by putting them in series, any more than you can by daisy chaining the old LM317 etc. You will achieve some Pre regulation though, which makes the job of the next one easier.

 However, if you use the standard value and type bypass capacitors for the LT3045s you WILL gain a little added HF detail which may not be such a good idea, and perhaps result in a tonal imbalance.

 

Read my post your quote is not correct, I did not say that!!

 

Well the noise floor does not lower but the ripple rejection ratio doubles up. 

And OMG every single time you have the chance you have to mention "the capacitor and the HF detail", well we know it by now after a billion times. Maybe you can write it in your signature it saves you time and we can ignore it. 🤓

What I did say is that it is a great regulator designed for audio, don't know the specs yet. You can make a great triple rail atx power supply with them or power the more powerful nuc with them.

 

Rick 🐾

Meitner ma1 v2 dac,  Sovereign preamp and power amp,

DIY speakers, scan speak illuminator.

Raal Requisite VM-1a -> SR-1a with Accurate Sound convolution.

Under development:

NUC7i7dnbe, Euphony Stylus, Qobuz.

Modded Buffalo-fiber-EtherRegen, DC3- Isoregen, Lush^2

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59 minutes ago, RickyV said:

What I did say is that it is a great regulator designed for audio, don't know the specs yet.

 

Nowhere in the Data sheets is there any mention of it being designed/ suitable for HiFi.
It is more designed for use with low noise instrumentation. etc.

APPLICATIONS

RF Power Supplies: PLLs, VCOs, Mixers, LNAs, PAs

nn Very Low Noise Instrumentation

nn High Speed/High Precision Data Converters

nn Medical Applications: Imaging, Diagnostics

nn Precision Power Supplies

nn Post-Regulator for Switching Supplies

(See attached Data Sheet)

 

However, this does not mean that it can't be made eminently suitable for Hi Fi use, especially with very low output Moving Coil cartridges etc. It also works very well with DAC Input stage use etc.

 

 Re " the noise floor could theoretically be reduced one hundred fold.  "

 LTG2010 and lmitchie claimed that , and you quoted that from LTG2010 in your reply. You clearly did NOT disagree or you would have said so in that reply

LT3045fa.pdf

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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9 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

Nowhere in the Data sheets is there any mention of it being designed/ suitable for HiFi.
It is more designed for use with low noise instrumentation. etc.

APPLICATIONS

RF Power Supplies: PLLs, VCOs, Mixers, LNAs, PAs

nn Very Low Noise Instrumentation

nn High Speed/High Precision Data Converters

nn Medical Applications: Imaging, Diagnostics

nn Precision Power Supplies

nn Post-Regulator for Switching Supplies

 

 Re " the noise floor could theoretically be reduced one hundred fold.  "

 LTG2010 and lmitchie claimed that , and you quoted that from LTG2010 in your reply. You clearly did NOT disagree or you would have said so in that reply

LT3045fa.pdf 2.9 MB · 1 download

 

I am only talking about the newclassd regulator here not the lt3045. 

And I quoted @LTG2010 to present an alternative high current regulator instead of paralleled lt3045's. You should be able to appreciate that.

 

rick 🐾

Meitner ma1 v2 dac,  Sovereign preamp and power amp,

DIY speakers, scan speak illuminator.

Raal Requisite VM-1a -> SR-1a with Accurate Sound convolution.

Under development:

NUC7i7dnbe, Euphony Stylus, Qobuz.

Modded Buffalo-fiber-EtherRegen, DC3- Isoregen, Lush^2

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50 minutes ago, LTG2010 said:

LT3045's have variable characteristics, regarding voltage drop and can also  heat up very quickly, so their is a benefit of a series circuit

 Yes, where the supply is several volts above the output voltage, using a pre-regulator is worthwhile to prevent overheating of the LT3045.  In that case you would be better off placing an additional higher value normal type electrolytic capacitor at the output of the pre regulator which is mainly being used like a dropping resistor. In fact, you may have even been able to use a suitable voltage 5W Zener diode, or low value PW5 resistor in series instead to drop the excess voltage.  The extra capacitance in conjunction with the resistance of the Zener diode also results in some additional ripple rejection.

 If a LT3045 was used directly after a bridge rectifier with a typical filter capacitor of 1,000uF to 4,700uF, the LT3045 would be more suitable for Hi Fi use as well, but you would need to make sure that the voltage drop wasn't high enough to cause overheating.

 Note also, that on numerous occasions Micael has also reported obtaining additional HF detail when " daisy chaining" LT3045s.

 The main problem when doing this is ensuring that the 0 volts (" earth")  reference isn't degraded by the extra wiring resistance .

 

How a Digital Audio file sounds, or a Digital Video file looks, is governed to a large extent by the Power Supply area. All that Identical Checksums gives is the possibility of REGENERATING the file to close to that of the original file.

PROFILE UPDATED 13-11-2020

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My original post was intended to say that incremental noise reduction efforts first hit a tipping point where more noise reduction creates increasing returns in SQ to a second point where incremental gains are no longer audible. Amir doesn't seem to be interested in exploring the limits of what is possible. Instead he takes a conservative approach trying to prove more is not possible.

 

The lt3045s represent one approach to lowering noise from a power supply. I am sure there are other approaches.

 

My personal observations confirm that serial lt3045s regulators raise SQ to a point. For the lt3045 rails of the lps1.2, or Hdplex 200 watt lps, two additional regulators seem to hit the limit of audible benefits. I am careful to avoid more than a 1.5 volt drop between regulators.

Pareto Audio aka nuckleheadaudio

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On 3/17/2019 at 2:13 PM, austinpop said:

 

For now, I am using 12V, because I don’t yet have a suitable PSU to go higher.  According to @romaz, 19V - assuming the same PSU - sounds best to him so I would suggest giving that a try.

 

On 3/17/2019 at 3:37 PM, Johnseye said:

 

 

I have recently changed from 12v to 19v using the same PSU.  So far 19v is slightly better, but other changes were made at the same time so I can't be 100% certain it's all because of the increased power.

Thanks for the feedback.

I have ordered a NUC7i7DNBE and Sean Jacobs 19v power supply.

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4 hours ago, elan120 said:

@austinpop, I have to say that I am in total agreement with your findings...the sCLK-EX reclocked i7DNHE is quite an experience!

 

The difference I did with mine is putting Evox cap upgraded sCLK-EX inside the X7D case, since I have to use extra clock outputs from tX-USBUltra for other devices.  In the meantime, the reference clock, also Evox upgraded sCLK-OCX10 help contributing to the SQ jump quite good also.

 

I still have some more burn-in to do, few more rearrangement and testing of different pieces I received recently, but even in this early stage of burn-in process, the SQ jump is very much jaw dropping.

 

Hi elan,

good idea to put the clock board inside the case with the nuc. So you have 3 clock tabs to the nuc and 1 for the tx-USB? 

On the nuc7i7dnbe I found only 4 xo's. Two xo's for the two hdmi drivers and two near the CPU on underside of the board, one real time clock and one system clock.

It would be very helpful if you could make some pics. And do you know the system clocks frequency and voltage, would be extremely helpful. 

I have ideas of putting a neutron star on my nuc7i7 in the same case.

 

Rick

Meitner ma1 v2 dac,  Sovereign preamp and power amp,

DIY speakers, scan speak illuminator.

Raal Requisite VM-1a -> SR-1a with Accurate Sound convolution.

Under development:

NUC7i7dnbe, Euphony Stylus, Qobuz.

Modded Buffalo-fiber-EtherRegen, DC3- Isoregen, Lush^2

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13 minutes ago, Ricardo007 said:

What is AL?

AudioLinux.

it is an OS

Meitner ma1 v2 dac,  Sovereign preamp and power amp,

DIY speakers, scan speak illuminator.

Raal Requisite VM-1a -> SR-1a with Accurate Sound convolution.

Under development:

NUC7i7dnbe, Euphony Stylus, Qobuz.

Modded Buffalo-fiber-EtherRegen, DC3- Isoregen, Lush^2

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On 3/19/2019 at 8:13 AM, dctom said:

 

Thanks for the feedback.

I have ordered a NUC7i7DNBE and Sean Jacobs 19v power supply.

Would you please share the model you ordered?

Tks,

Jorge

Jensen VRD-iFF>Router>Rj45>opticalModule>
SFP>Buffalo2016>SFP>opticalModule >Rj45>

IZen Mk3>Rj45> Delock62619>Rj45>
etherRegen (Master Clock+ Mini-Circuits BLP)>SFP>opticalRendu>USB>IsoRegen>

USB>Phoenix>USB>OPPO 205 (Modded)>HMS “the Perfect Match”>Proac Tablette Reference 8 Signature.
 

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4 hours ago, RickyV said:

Hi elan,

good idea to put the clock board inside the case with the nuc. So you have 3 clock tabs to the nuc and 1 for the tx-USB? 

On the nuc7i7dnbe I found only 4 xo's. Two xo's for the two hdmi drivers and two near the CPU on underside of the board, one real time clock and one system clock.

It would be very helpful if you could make some pics. And do you know the system clocks frequency and voltage, would be extremely helpful. 

I have ideas of putting a neutron star on my nuc7i7 in the same case.

 

Rick

Hi Rick,

 

The set up is having sCLK-EX inside the case, 3 clock tabs to the NUC as you have described, one remaining tab programmed at 25MHz.  I plan to use this tab to experiment whether external USB drive can be benefited.  As for tX-USBUltra, other than having the Evox cap, eABS-200, and DC cable upgraded, it stays in same configuration and setup as before.

 

Based on your description of clock locations, they sound correct, but since I have SoTM work on the modifications, I didn't measure either frequency or amplitude.  My limited understanding is, 24MHz for the system clock, 25MHz for the Ethernet, and 27MHz for HDMI, and based on my measurements on sCLK-EX clock outputs, amplitude is around 3Vp-p.  See sample picture below.

 

1521546480_sCLK-EX24.0MHzoutputtoSU-1USBclockinput-pin3-pic2.png.45ffd81739d41670e8606fce64936e12.png

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5 hours ago, soares said:

Would you please share the model you ordered?

Tks,

Jorge

Hi Jorge

After exchanging emails with Sean, to explore best alternatives, ordered the Dc3 with current boost and Mundorf caps. Four month waiting list!

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2 hours ago, dctom said:

Hi Jorge

After exchanging emails with Sean, to explore best alternatives, ordered the Dc3 with current boost and Mundorf caps. Four month waiting list!

Tks. But I was not aware that Sean was also selling NUC's.

Would you mind sending me the link and if possible the NUC's price?

Tks,

 

Jorge

Jensen VRD-iFF>Router>Rj45>opticalModule>
SFP>Buffalo2016>SFP>opticalModule >Rj45>

IZen Mk3>Rj45> Delock62619>Rj45>
etherRegen (Master Clock+ Mini-Circuits BLP)>SFP>opticalRendu>USB>IsoRegen>

USB>Phoenix>USB>OPPO 205 (Modded)>HMS “the Perfect Match”>Proac Tablette Reference 8 Signature.
 

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6 hours ago, elan120 said:

Hi Rick,

 

The set up is having sCLK-EX inside the case, 3 clock tabs to the NUC as you have described, one remaining tab programmed at 25MHz.  I plan to use this tab to experiment whether external USB drive can be benefited.  As for tX-USBUltra, other than having the Evox cap, eABS-200, and DC cable upgraded, it stays in same configuration and setup as before.

 

Based on your description of clock locations, they sound correct, but since I have SoTM work on the modifications, I didn't measure either frequency or amplitude.  My limited understanding is, 24MHz for the system clock, 25MHz for the Ethernet, and 27MHz for HDMI, and based on my measurements on sCLK-EX clock outputs, amplitude is around 3Vp-p.  See sample picture below.

 

1521546480_sCLK-EX24.0MHzoutputtoSU-1USBclockinput-pin3-pic2.png.45ffd81739d41670e8606fce64936e12.png

 

3 hours ago, sunny_time_99 said:

Your Clock-Signal look awful!

24mhz must look as clean as this 12 mhz from a neutron StarIMG-20190128-WA0013.thumb.jpeg.aa81ffb5879aba2314a440f26e7b3c8f.jpeg

 

Thanks Elan

 

If the 24Mhz clock is the CPU clock that good news for me because i then could also us a crystek 575 oscillator. We do not know the exect phase noise quality of the neutron star. For the neutron star to fit in my DIY case i am building right now will be a major undertaking so the crystek would be very welkom.

I am still confused about the locations of the clocks. In the first picture, top side, are two red squares for the 27Mhz XO's and two green circls for the corresponding chips which are display port drivers "mega chips MCDP2800BC". So I guess that those two chips are for the two HDMI ports.

The second picture is the bottom side where i found also two XO's, the red squares. The right one looks like a real time clock XO. The other one must be the CPU clock.

So I am missing the 25Mhz Ethernet clock? Could you measure the other clock tabs too????

 

IMG_1433.thumb.JPG.0b2b2e7a0afed4e8bdb1dbb5f64d37fb.JPG 

 

IMG_1432.thumb.JPG.028df4f8e912bc848c976e848af5ce3d.JPG

 

Sorry @sunny_time_99 to drag you into this but you seem to know more about clocks.

 

Sorry if this is bit to much DIY

 

Meitner ma1 v2 dac,  Sovereign preamp and power amp,

DIY speakers, scan speak illuminator.

Raal Requisite VM-1a -> SR-1a with Accurate Sound convolution.

Under development:

NUC7i7dnbe, Euphony Stylus, Qobuz.

Modded Buffalo-fiber-EtherRegen, DC3- Isoregen, Lush^2

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3 minutes ago, RickyV said:

 

 

Thanks Elan

 

If the 24Mhz clock is the CPU clock that good news for me because i then could also us a crystek 575 oscillator. We do not know the exect phase noise quality of the neutron star. For the neutron star to fit in my DIY case i am building right now will be a major undertaking so the crystek would be very welkom.

I am still confused about the locations of the clocks. In the first picture, top side, are two red squares for the 27Mhz XO's and two green circls for the corresponding chips which are display port drivers "mega chips MCDP2800BC". So I guess that those two chips are for the two HDMI ports.

The second picture is the bottom side where i found also two XO's, the red squares. The right one looks like a real time clock XO. The other one must be the CPU clock.

So I am missing the 25Mhz Ethernet clock? Could you measure the other clock tabs too????

 

IMG_1433.thumb.JPG.0b2b2e7a0afed4e8bdb1dbb5f64d37fb.JPG 

 

IMG_1432.thumb.JPG.028df4f8e912bc848c976e848af5ce3d.JPG

 

Sorry @sunny_time_99 to drag you into this but you seem to know more about clocks.

 

Sorry if this is bit to much DIY

 

Hi Rick,

 

You have the HDMI clocks spotted from the first picture (top side).  The Ethernet clock is also on the bottom side, but you will need to lift up the battery pack in order to see it, and it is the same shape just like the system clock.

 

NP with DIY discussion, I have a few DIY projects planned for the next couple weeks, including external USB enclosure and USB PCIe card clock replacements, both are USB3.1 Gen2.  Hopefully, they will help elevate SQ further, so if you are interested, I will post the result here if they proved to be worthwhile efforts.

 

Kevin

 

 

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5 minutes ago, elan120 said:

Hi Rick,

 

You have the HDMI clocks spotted from the first picture (top side).  The Ethernet clock is also on the bottom side, but you will need to lift up the battery pack in order to see it, and it is the same shape just like the system clock.

 

NP with DIY discussion, I have a few DIY projects planned for the next couple weeks, including external USB enclosure and USB PCIe card clock replacements, both are USB3.1 Gen2.  Hopefully, they will help elevate SQ further, so if you are interested, I will post the result here if they proved to be worthwhile efforts.

 

Kevin

 

 

 

Whoaa Kevin many many thanks 🙏 

Meitner ma1 v2 dac,  Sovereign preamp and power amp,

DIY speakers, scan speak illuminator.

Raal Requisite VM-1a -> SR-1a with Accurate Sound convolution.

Under development:

NUC7i7dnbe, Euphony Stylus, Qobuz.

Modded Buffalo-fiber-EtherRegen, DC3- Isoregen, Lush^2

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