A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[lmitche]

@sandyk

 

Have you listened to music from a 12 volt double regulated (lt3045 - 3 amp) linear power supply powered 3.5 inch hard drive connected to a server via a USB 3.1 gen2 enclosure to a USB 3.1 gen2 pcie card powered by a 12 volt double or triple regulated (lt3045 - 1.5 amp) linear power supply?

 

FWIW, after years of testing SATA, NAS, HDD, SSD, and NVME options, this solution sounds best here. I know of at least five other people from CA that do the same with or without the server based USB card (as they use NUC servers), and are delighted with the results.

 

Larry

 

 

[carlmart]

44 minutes ago, lmitche said:

@sandyk

 

Have you listened to music from a 12 volt double regulated (lt3045 - 3 amp) linear power supply powered 3.5 inch hard drive connected to a server via a USB 3.1 gen2 enclosure to a USB 3.1 gen2 pcie card powered by a 12 volt double or triple regulated (lt3045 - 1.5 amp) linear power supply?

 

FWIW, after years of testing SATA, NAS, HDD, SSD, and NVME options, this solution sounds best here. I know of at least five other people from CA that do the same with or without the server based USB card (as they use NUC servers), and are delighted with the results.

 

What LT3045 regulator or power supply are you using and what USB 3.1 gen2 enclosure is that?

 

How do you power a pcie card with an external supply and cut the internal socket power links?

[Boomboy]

@lmitche any chance of a pic ? 

[lmitche]

The details of this solution have been posted about many times in this thread already.

[chauphuong]

Is this possible to install audiolinux on a Raspberry Pi2?

[bobfa]

14 minutes ago, chauphuong said:

Is this possible to install audiolinux on a Raspberry Pi2?

If you go look at http://www.audio-linux.com/#GUIDE.  The pi3 version is listed.   You could ask @hifi25nl who is the author.

 

[numlog]

12 hours ago, Chopin75 said:

I use AMD Ryzen 2700x 8-core ! so it does not need much hyperthread. According to pinkfaun, this is the chip they recommend for Music playback. It runs things very smoothly, runs DSD256 beautifully, including upsampling from PCM to DSD256 via HQplayer.. It appears Pinkfaun recommends lower hyperthread with more core is better.   I also think the lack of video card may be better if you plan to run headless, so it won't be a source of possible interference. But you may need a separate video card for setup using the screen. 

For Phasure's PC they advertise more cores as sounding better aswell. Hyperthreading is recommended by PeterSt at least for XXhighend, the software has a ''Processor Appointment Scheme'' option that is meant to optimize sound for different CPU situations including large number cores/threads ie the phasure PC.

 

It was a little disappointing to discover that its only the Ryzen 7 that lacks video, The MoBos will still all have integrated video hardware.

[Monge]

2 hours ago, Boomboy said:

@lmitche any chance of a pic ? 

More info on page 520

[numlog]

So I assume no one has switched  directly from an intel or AMD CPU to the other with otherwise mostly similar hardware

10 hours ago, sandyk said:

Yes, being mechanical devices that have their motors normally powered from an existing +12V supply rail, (especially the large capacity types) they are then highly likely to have less precise timing, and will also inject their motor current demand variations back into the +12V supply as well. This +12V supply may also be shared with other devices such as another HDD or even an Optical device.

 

There is another fly in the ointment here too. Many people augment the internal PSU with external Linear power supplies which have capacitive coupling back through the transformer to A.C. mains earth. (This is more of a problem with USB though) 

The existing would be using the 0 volts lead back to the internal PSU 's " earth plane" via fairly short leads, perhaps via a couple of 4 pin molex connectors. When you add an external linear PSU you then increase the 0 volts ( earth reference) lead length from the new PSU via it's relatively long 0 volts lead back to perhaps an earth reference derived from a 3 pin plug via perhaps an up to 1.8M long AC cable, plugged into (hopefully) an adjacent socket on the same powerboard. You may also have another variable where the 0 volts lead of the new linear PSU can be either  " floating" or connected to mains earth. This may result in additional RF/EMI pick up from external sources

 

Use an added low noise  internal voltage regulator powered by +12V from the existing PSU, then the earth resistance may then be almost the same length back to the internal PSU's 0 volts plane, or just a few inches longer than previously.

 It's ALWAYS a good idea to keep the  0 volts earth references as short as possible, which is another reason why it's best not to " daisy chain" added LT3045 (etc.) voltage regulators. This applies to both Digital and Analogue areas.

 

Alex

Cool, for my external supplies I may have inadvertently minimized that problem. toroids were used and the whole supply is inside the  PC case, with no mains earthing, the 0V path isnt too much longer with them.

 

 The PC PSU is outside case since it probably emits the most RFI/EMI, the MoBo and CPU power cables are very long anyway, this makes use of that length.You could argue keeping those power cables bundled up inside PC would minimize the intereference they pick up but I think PC PSU iteself is a bigger source.

[rafa]

On 3/4/2019 at 8:07 PM, numlog said:

Does anyone have experience with different CPUs?

I replaced Pentium 2c to low power i5 4c. No sound related changes after all.

[numlog]

Have you ever experimenting with underclocking and noticed changes from that?

[shahed99]

@austinpop Did you get a chance to listen to your clock modified NUC + USBUltra + SoTM Switch without the master clock input from Mutec? I was wondering, if I should send my NUC and USBUltra to SoTM, should I get the master clock mod. Given the price of a Mutec and good digital cable is $5k, I wonder how significant it is to have it in the chain. 

[sandyk]

10 hours ago, lmitche said:

Have you listened to music from a 12 volt double regulated (lt3045 - 3 amp) linear power supply powered 3.5 inch hard drive connected to a server via a USB 3.1 gen2 enclosure to a USB 3.1 gen2 pcie card powered by a 12 volt double or triple regulated (lt3045 - 1.5 amp) linear power supply?

Hi Larry

 No I haven't . I don't need to use a flawed USB output with all the extra work and additional expense it takes to get it performing well.

 I get great results from my general purpose PC via Coax SPDIF from an Asus Xonar D2X when using the additional internal ultra low noise PSUs (JRiver) . Despite what some may wish to believe, even the quality of the PSU used to power the Optical device used for ripping CD/DVD/BR material does matter, (see attached photo) as does disconnecting a broadband router if used for email purposes etc.

 I have found that even earthing the provided screen wire of an R Core transformer with a low noise Linear PSU for USB causes minor degradation. ( I have fitted an earth lift switch for easy comparison purposes) I have yet to hear an external  PSU for use with a Regen etc. that sounds quite as good as a 12V supply from a Li Ion battery with an ultra  low noise voltage regulator, where there is no additional capacitive coupling to A.C. mains earth. Perhaps surprisingly, even powering 2 devices from separate secondary windings on a transformer causes some degradation compared with using 2 separate transformers when used in the USB area.

 In my case, I don't need DSD as there is very little available in that format that is currently of interest to me.

 I have also done a lot of experimenting, and continue to do so with various power supplies, including the LT3045, which I find for proper tonal balancing needs at least one additional higher value normal type electrolytic in parallel to combat the added HF detail from the LT3045 which is a result of the very low ESR capacitors they use, and it's decreasing output impedance towards 100kHz. 

 Note also that the LT3045 data sheets make no claims about it's suitability in Hi Fi applications, although it can do that with additional parallel normal type electros.  

 For best results, power supplies should have a low as possible flat output impedance from DC to way above 100kHZ , and preferably to 1mHz.

 Incidentally, if you use a standard 1A version of the LT3045 to power internal OS and Music SSDs in a PC or server you can expect a lift in HF detail with both Audio and Video. However, in some cases this may make up for system/source material deficiencies, and sound pleasing to many.

Regards

Alex

 

P.S. 

I now have a couple of new BR comparison Music Video discs that clearly show the degradation caused by even using a 3M long USB cable to a USB memory stick, as well as illustrating the excessive  HF A and V detail that can be achieved by the use of a PSU for a Regen/USB memory stick where Low ESR capacitors are deliberately selected to do that.

 No 1s and 0s were harmed in the process. 

[sandyk]

6 hours ago, numlog said:

Cool, for my external supplies I may have inadvertently minimized that problem. toroids were used and the whole supply is inside the  PC case, with no mains earthing, the 0V path isnt too much longer with them.

 

That doesn't sound too much like an inadvertent solution to me. 

[lmitche]

13 minutes ago, sandyk said:

Hi Larry

 No I haven't . I don't need to use a flawed USB output with all the extra work and additional expense it takes to get it performing well.

 I get great results from my general purpose PC via Coax SPDIF from an Asus Xonar D2X when using the additional internal ultra low noise PSUs (JRiver) . Despite what some may wish to believe, even the quality of the PSU used to power the Optical device used for ripping CD/DVD/BR material does matter, (see attached photo) as does disconnecting a broadband router if used for email purposes etc.

 I have found that even earthing the provided screen wire of an R Core transformer with a low noise Linear PSU for USB causes minor degradation. ( I have fitted an earth lift switch for east comparison purposes) I have yet to hear an external  PSU for use with a Regen etc. that sounds quite as good as a 12V supply from a Li Ion battery with an ultra  low noise voltage regulator, where there is no additional capacitive coupling to A.C. mains earth. Perhaps surprisingly, even powering 2 devices from separate secondary windings on a transformer causes some degradation compared with using 2 separate transformers when used in the USB area.

 In my case, I don't need DSD as there is very little available in that format that is currently of interest to me.

 I have also done a lot of experimenting, and continue to do so with various power supplies, including the LT3045, which I find for proper tonal balancing needs at least one additional higher value normal type electrolytic in parallel to combat the added HF detail from the LT3045 which is a result of the very low ESR capacitors they use, and it's decreasing output impedance towards 100kHz. 

 Note also that the LT3045 data sheets make no claims about it's suitability in Hi Fi applications, although it can do that with additional parallel normal type electros.  

 For best results, power supplies should have a low as possible flat output impedance from DC to way above 100kHZ , and preferably to 1mHz.

 Incidentally, if you use a standard 1A version of the LT3045 to power internal OS and Music SSDs in a PC or server you can expect a lift in HF detail with both Audio and Video. However, in some cases this may make up for system/source material deficiencies, and sound pleasing to many.

Regards

Alex

 

P.S. 

I now have a couple of new BR comparison Music Video discs that clearly show the degradation caused by even using a 3M long USB cable to a USB memory stick, as well as illustrating the excessive  HF A and V detail that can be achieved by the use of a PSU for a Regen/USB memory stick where Low ESR capacitors are deliberately selected to do that.

 No 1s and 0s were harmed in the process. 

Thanks Sandy, I am happy you found a simple solution that works well for you.

[numlog]

1 minute ago, sandyk said:

 

That doesn't sound too much like an inadvertent solution to me. 

true,  it doesnt. it was for ease of transportation and the similar idea of keeping short distances for V+.

[sandyk]

2 hours ago, lmitche said:

Thanks Sandy, I am happy you found a simple solution that works well for you.

 

 Unfortunately, it is a DIY solution, that many members can't employ due to lack of internal space for additional low noise voltage regulation and isolation between sections.

That's where things like the J.S designed replacement Uptone  Linear PSU for the Mac Mini come into their own as a good starting point.

[austinpop]

18 hours ago, shahed99 said:

@austinpop Did you get a chance to listen to your clock modified NUC + USBUltra + SoTM Switch without the master clock input from Mutec? I was wondering, if I should send my NUC and USBUltra to SoTM, should I get the master clock mod. Given the price of a Mutec and good digital cable is $5k, I wonder how significant it is to have it in the chain. 

 

Not sure how to answer. Yes, I have tried the chain of SOtM switch <-> reclocked NUC i7 <-> tX-USBultra. In this chain, there are 2 components that can be reference clocked: the switch, and the tX-USBultra (which indirectly affects the NUC).

• Is there a difference in SQ between no Ref-10 and Ref-10 for both components? Yes.
• Is it significant? Yes, it is not subtle.
• Is it worth the cost? To me, it is, but everyone has different systems, ears, and values. Only you can decide.

You have to look at the rest of the chain too. What quality are the rest of your components? Your DAC? Your PSUs? Your analog electronics? Your transducers? I will say that the magnitude of the improvement from the reference clock grows (or is more evident) as you scale up the quality of the rest of the chain.

[the_doc735]

this is novel or weird ?

 

somehow the roon crashed?

I couldn't install albums on my NAS/SSD via a memory USB stick either.

I had played an album BEFORE this happened and it sounded rubbish!

I gave up and unplugged everything and rebooted and re-installed roon to the laptop controller.

I still couldn't get any albums on the NAS from it's USB input!

So, I gave up for a while.

I then plugged the USB memory stick into the laptop controller and loaded an album to roon via the USB memory stick.

The controller laptop is linked to my router/access point by WLAN/wireless.

This album played back from the router via the rest of the chain and it sounded great compared to the dedicated NAS/server!

Can anyone explain this conundrum please?

To compare:

an everyday domestic laptop with thousands of processes firing off all the time with a bog standard SMPS and noisy tiny fan; sounds better than a:

dedicated NAS with good quality SSD's & noctura top of range fan with speed resistor and SOtM fan filter + SOtM sata filters and LPSU: ..... how can the laptop sound better than the dedicated NAS?

 

this was ALL an accident, I didn't mean to do it!

 

This throws up obvious questions like; is my dedicated NAS server up to the job/ up to the task! Common sense says that the laptop shouldn't sound better than the dedicated/custom NAS which was built for the task in hand and only serves an audio purpose! Compared to an all purpose bog standard laptop!

 

Here's a pic of the chain:

 

[mikicasellas]

Hi Guys,

 

I want to share some observations/discoveries that i have had the last couple of days:

 

I have been using a MacMini late 2012 as Roon Server and a NUC/AL with Akasa case as Roon Endpoint powered by a HDPLEX 200 and Ghent Audio cables, this is with the Denafrips Terminator DAC and then to my Integrated amplifier.

 

I tried to made a comparison between the Terminator and my OPPO 205, now that i have the server/endpoint configuration, but when i tried to get the OPPO working with the NUC/AL the DAC was not seen, so i could not and then connected the OPPO directly to the MAC and did the direct approach (two ways) that i used to have before the NUC: MacMini (Roon) connected direct to the DAC via a Lush USB cable...and using the OPPO both as a DAC and endpoint via net, and for my surprise the sound came so good with the OPPO specially via network instead of USB connection, it was so clean and detailed, then i realized that i did not have any ethernet cable connected to the OPPO so the magnificent sound was coming via wifi to the OPPO, perhaps a little less strong on the bass section but strong enough to be very musical and more detailed and clean than the MacMini/NUC/AL configuration.

 

Take in count that among other things i have not done, one is the "Bridge" thing between my Mac/NUC/switch...

 

I am kind of frustrated here to be honest, first the Terminator is supposed to be in another league vs the OPPO 205 as a DAC and the NUC/AL (endpoint) - Macmini (server) should be also better that the OPPO DAC/Endpoint, maybe i have the NUC configured wrong or not as good as it should be, but if everything is in its place the simplicity that the OPPO as a DAC/endpoint represents could be an incredible and simple approach to what so many of us are looking for here..

 

My KINKI integrated is NEW (December 2018) and it is delightful, better than my Hegel separates, i believe that could be the synergy between my actual gear maybe?, cause i remember that before with my Hegel P20/H20, the OPPO was flatter and noisier than the Terminator, now seems that the OPPO is cleaner than before and have more sparkle (the good one), no harsh, no analytical, perhaps the last upgrade in the OPPO made some BIG difference ??, but i believe now, after having more expensive gear and tweaks, that the OPPO is a Giant Killer without a doubt, as an endpoint and as a DAC.

 

I am wondering if having to upgrade the server & Endpoint to both Intel NUC7i7DNHE and upgrading the HDPLEX 200 to a Paul Hynes SR4 would become the better/best approach to put this "NUC thing" in really another level as it is said in this forum, so far, at least here it has not been that significant upgrade in sound after making these comparisons.

 

Not sure where i am going fro here now, but hopefully i will understand more and better with your impressions

 

Cheers!

[Neal.Audio]

^ @mikicasellas

 

"Take in count that among other things i have not done, one is the "Bridge" thing between my Mac/NUC/switch..."

 

Since you haven't implemented 1) the virtual bridge and 2) the audio grade switch, any gook from the noisy mac will be transmitted to your dac.

 

This is my initial post, so I 'd like to say hello to everyone and would like to thank the trailblazers on this thread for all of the groundbreaking discoveries they've made.

[Neal.Audio]

Renderers and Roon Volume Control

 

I've tried a number of Roon Ready DACs with renderers such as the Bricasti M5 Network Player, including the Bricasti M1 SE, the Chord Qutest, and the Ayre Codex. Volume control is always lost (grayed out) in the Roon application when using the M5. So my question is this: When the NUC7I7DNBE is used as an endpoint (renderer only), are users experiencing a loss of volume control with Roon? (Changing to fixed or variable setting in Roon makes no difference. Outputs also make no difference... same result with AES, SPDIF, or USB.)

 

Note that volume control is retained in Roon when plugging directly into the M1 SE DAC with the ethernet adapter on board. 

[Chopin75]

5 hours ago, the_doc735 said:

this is novel or weird ?

 

somehow the roon crashed?

I couldn't install albums on my NAS/SSD via a memory USB stick either.

I had played an album BEFORE this happened and it sounded rubbish!

I gave up and unplugged everything and rebooted and re-installed roon to the laptop controller.

I still couldn't get any albums on the NAS from it's USB input!

So, I gave up for a while.

I then plugged the USB memory stick into the laptop controller and loaded an album to roon via the USB memory stick.

The controller laptop is linked to my router/access point by WLAN/wireless.

This album played back from the router via the rest of the chain and it sounded great compared to the dedicated NAS/server!

Can anyone explain this conundrum please?

To compare:

an everyday domestic laptop with thousands of processes firing off all the time with a bog standard SMPS and noisy tiny fan; sounds better than a:

dedicated NAS with good quality SSD's & noctura top of range fan with speed resistor and SOtM fan filter + SOtM sata filters and LPSU: ..... how can the laptop sound better than the dedicated NAS?

 

this was ALL an accident, I didn't mean to do it!

 

This throws up obvious questions like; is my dedicated NAS server up to the job/ up to the task! Common sense says that the laptop shouldn't sound better than the dedicated/custom NAS which was built for the task in hand and only serves an audio purpose! Compared to an all purpose bog standard laptop!

 

Here's a pic of the chain:

 

First off, can you describe in more detail what you mean by sounding better ? And is it on all type of recordings/Hi Res/low Res/DSD etc?

[Chopin75]

3 hours ago, mikicasellas said:

Hi Guys,

 

I want to share some observations/discoveries that i have had the last couple of days:

 

I have been using a MacMini late 2012 as Roon Server and a NUC/AL with Akasa case as Roon Endpoint powered by a HDPLEX 200 and Ghent Audio cables, this is with the Denafrips Terminator DAC and then to my Integrated amplifier.

 

I tried to made a comparison between the Terminator and my OPPO 205, now that i have the server/endpoint configuration, but when i tried to get the OPPO working with the NUC/AL the DAC was not seen, so i could not and then connected the OPPO directly to the MAC and did the direct approach (two ways) that i used to have before the NUC: MacMini (Roon) connected direct to the DAC via a Lush USB cable...and using the OPPO both as a DAC and endpoint via net, and for my surprise the sound came so good with the OPPO specially via network instead of USB connection, it was so clean and detailed, then i realized that i did not have any ethernet cable connected to the OPPO so the magnificent sound was coming via wifi to the OPPO, perhaps a little less strong on the bass section but strong enough to be very musical and more detailed and clean than the MacMini/NUC/AL configuration.

 

Take in count that among other things i have not done, one is the "Bridge" thing between my Mac/NUC/switch...

 

I am kind of frustrated here to be honest, first the Terminator is supposed to be in another league vs the OPPO 205 as a DAC and the NUC/AL (endpoint) - Macmini (server) should be also better that the OPPO DAC/Endpoint, maybe i have the NUC configured wrong or not as good as it should be, but if everything is in its place the simplicity that the OPPO as a DAC/endpoint represents could be an incredible and simple approach to what so many of us are looking for here..

 

My KINKI integrated is NEW (December 2018) and it is delightful, better than my Hegel separates, i believe that could be the synergy between my actual gear maybe?, cause i remember that before with my Hegel P20/H20, the OPPO was flatter and noisier than the Terminator, now seems that the OPPO is cleaner than before and have more sparkle (the good one), no harsh, no analytical, perhaps the last upgrade in the OPPO made some BIG difference ??, but i believe now, after having more expensive gear and tweaks, that the OPPO is a Giant Killer without a doubt, as an endpoint and as a DAC.

 

I am wondering if having to upgrade the server & Endpoint to both Intel NUC7i7DNHE and upgrading the HDPLEX 200 to a Paul Hynes SR4 would become the better/best approach to put this "NUC thing" in really another level as it is said in this forum, so far, at least here it has not been that significant upgrade in sound after making these comparisons.

 

Not sure where i am going fro here now, but hopefully i will understand more and better with your impressions

 

Cheers!

IS your Macmini also fanless and with LPS ? Is it possible it is underpowered, meaning the CPU is not strong enough ? Mac can be rather noisy and full of jitter. 

[mikicasellas]

25 minutes ago, Chopin75 said:

IS your Macmini also fanless and with LPS ? Is it possible it is underpowered, meaning the CPU is not strong enough ? Mac can be rather noisy and full of jitter. 

 

No my Mac mini is not fanless, but my point is that having the Macmini as Server for both scenarios 1) NUC/AL + DAC & 2) OPPO as DAC and Endpoint seems that the second is a little bit clearer, voices come out silkier.