A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[greenleo]

3 minutes ago, Chopin75 said:

Interesting, is it because each box will have its own additional noise added? But would that be much reduced with LPS for each box too ?, (sorry if my question is stupid) 

Your question is not stupid but many user incorrectly thought that an LPS can solve everything or too many things.  The upstream device will output noises to the downstream one and this is not related to whether the upstream one is using LPS or not.  Hence nowadays we see the expensive servers (more that 15k) looks more than electrical engineer's work (lots of power supplies, filtering,..., etc) rather than a home computer.  Chech there weight and it's noit common to find them more than 30kg!

[greenleo]

1 hour ago, bobfa said:

"DOC'. etal

 

Please, please slow down a little.  Maybe we have a difference in the Kings English vs US English.  I learn in a different manner. And forget in more ways than I should.  I am trying to help here.

 

First "DOC" your question is not yes or no it is VERY COMPLEX.  We do not know the answer to a lot of them.  The custom server vs NAS is basically a no contest.  You can build a server that sounds better than a NAS.  Your specific selection of components would be impossible for us to respond to.  So I tried to summarize about two years of history here about servers and systems in general. An example in your list is the power supply.  That was not optimal; some sort of linear power supply would change things.  Does this help?

 

The NUC RAM/AL question is even more complex.  We do not have "THE" answer.  For example the playback software is a black box we do not understand how it works.  The network interfaces to the various devices in our systems and how they interact to influence sound are sometimes unfathomable.  Changing the software from Roon to squeezelite changes the sound.  Changing the buffers in squeezelite changes the sound.  Slow processors with carefully designed boards and interfaces are amazing.  Today, just maybe, a specific off the shelf mother board from Intel may be better.

 

I can design a  (have designed) systems that sound great.  But every day we learn more and more.  What has been right just a year ago is not right today and what is right today will change tomorrow.  This thread and several others are on the bleeding edge of our learning.  If you came to me today and said "Bob what sounds the best?"  My answer would have to be very well thought out.  I would consider the person, budget, location, current system design.  A system I outlined last year might not be optimal for today.  My personal system is in constant flux.  I have reached the limits of my speakers and my room.  What will I change next?

 

Get some rest, have a good evening. 

 

Bob

Hi Bob,

 

I'm using an NAS as the file server.  Please show me the way to build a DIY file  server to outperform it.  Thank you.

[bobfa]

8 minutes ago, greenleo said:

Hi Bob,

 

I'm using an NAS as the file server.  Please show me the way to build a DIY file  server to outperform it.  Thank you.

 

 

OK Above is what I have been doing.  In my system these have been wonderful.  There is so much further we can go and in so many other directions.  These two builds are my personal interepretation of what seems to be a trend on this forum.  I will bet that something else will be better.  I bet that If I re-do the power supplies to remove the internal DC-DC ATX on the server I can do better.  Lots of things to bet on!  I bet that a year from now we will find yet another way.

 

I am standing on the shoulders of many others here.  While my idea is to make better sound for my system, I have more of a mission to help others do the same. My business is helping people with technology.  This is fun with technology.

 

Here are just some of the things I am thinking about:

 

• I wonder if splitting Cores for audio use will sound better.
• Both of these designs are very DIY and others cannot do that work.   How do I solve that?
• I am floating another idea where I get ready-built NUCs built to my spec.  
• I still want to build a NUC as a server vs my Xeon.  Is the NUC “good enough?”
• I am waiting for some hardware to put a fiber networking card that should work with AL in my Xeon.  
• I found a way that we might try an M.2 fiber networking card in a NUC.
• I want it to play more with Wireless in the endpoint.  Others are VERY happy with this.
• I discovered today that Euphony Linux does YouTube.  What else?  Expensive but not to hard to trial for SQ.
• I am waiting for the EtherRegen but enjoying the TLS switch I have. 

I have reached some SQ limits in my room.  I have done NO room treatment or Roon DSP, etc. It is my living room and funky room treatments are out..  I am researching how to attack this problem from the USB side of the NUC.  My current focus are a pair of KII Three speakers!

 

Oh and my wife wants to use Alexa to play music in the LR!  She is afraid of it.  AS ke kicks himself!

 

I think that is enough on my plate for now.

 

[Superdad]

3 hours ago, Dutch said:

This is not Facebook.

 

Brilliant!  

Chris ought to make that a banner at the top of the entire forum. 

[Chopin75]

15 minutes ago, bobfa said:

 

 

OK Above is what I have been doing.  In my system these have been wonderful.  There is so much further we can go and in so many other directions.  These two builds are my personal interepretation of what seems to be a trend on this forum.  I will bet that something else will be better.  I bet that If I re-do the power supplies to remove the internal DC-DC ATX on the server I can do better.  Lots of things to bet on!  I bet that a year from now we will find yet another way.

 

I am standing on the shoulders of many others here.  While my idea is to make better sound for my system, I have more of a mission to help others do the same. My business is helping people with technology.  This is fun with technology.

 

Here are just some of the things I am thinking about:

 

• I wonder if splitting Cores for audio use will sound better.
• Both of these designs are very DIY and others cannot do that work.   How do I solve that?
• I am floating another idea where I get ready-built NUCs built to my spec.  
• I still want to build a NUC as a server vs my Xeon.  Is the NUC “good enough?”
• I am waiting for some hardware to put a fiber networking card that should work with AL in my Xeon.  
• I found a way that we might try an M.2 fiber networking card in a NUC.
• I want it to play more with Wireless in the endpoint.  Others are VERY happy with this.
• I discovered today that Euphony Linux does YouTube.  What else?  Expensive but not to hard to trial for SQ.
• I am waiting for the EtherRegen but enjoying the TLS switch I have. 

I have reached some SQ limits in my room.  I have done NO room treatment or Roon DSP, etc. It is my living room and funky room treatments are out..  I am researching how to attack this problem from the USB side of the NUC.  My current focus are a pair of KII Three speakers!

 

Oh and my wife wants to use Alexa to play music in the LR!  She is afraid of it.  AS ke kicks himself!

 

I think that is enough on my plate for now.

 

Euphony OS does sound really great! Agree it is not that cheap but it comes with its own software player "styles", Roon ready, embedded HQplayer (separate payment for it) 

[Chopin75]

1 hour ago, greenleo said:

Your question is not stupid but many user incorrectly thought that an LPS can solve everything or too many things.  The upstream device will output noises to the downstream one and this is not related to whether the upstream one is using LPS or not.  Hence nowadays we see the expensive servers (more that 15k) looks more than electrical engineer's work (lots of power supplies, filtering,..., etc) rather than a home computer.  Chech there weight and it's noit common to find them more than 30kg!

I suppose is it fair to say that with each additional box/device there may be additional noise/jitter added and becomes significant by the time it reaches then DAC ? 

[jcn3]

5 hours ago, davide256 said:

If you forced me to use AL at one end only, I would choose the server.

 

i agree that AL seems to provide the optimal benefit at the server -- in comparison with ROCK, AL is much better.

 

at the endpoint, i'm struggling much more -- the detail with AL is nice, but in my system it just seems lacking in the lower registers.  i've just switched back (again) to win10/ao/fidelizer/dirac -- it's more involving to me.

[greenleo]

1 hour ago, bobfa said:

 

 

OK Above is what I have been doing.  In my system these have been wonderful.  There is so much further we can go and in so many other directions.  These two builds are my personal interepretation of what seems to be a trend on this forum.  I will bet that something else will be better.  I bet that If I re-do the power supplies to remove the internal DC-DC ATX on the server I can do better.  Lots of things to bet on!  I bet that a year from now we will find yet another way.

 

I am standing on the shoulders of many others here.  While my idea is to make better sound for my system, I have more of a mission to help others do the same. My business is helping people with technology.  This is fun with technology.

 

Here are just some of the things I am thinking about:

 

• I wonder if splitting Cores for audio use will sound better.
• Both of these designs are very DIY and others cannot do that work.   How do I solve that?
• I am floating another idea where I get ready-built NUCs built to my spec.  
• I still want to build a NUC as a server vs my Xeon.  Is the NUC “good enough?”
• I am waiting for some hardware to put a fiber networking card that should work with AL in my Xeon.  
• I found a way that we might try an M.2 fiber networking card in a NUC.
• I want it to play more with Wireless in the endpoint.  Others are VERY happy with this.
• I discovered today that Euphony Linux does YouTube.  What else?  Expensive but not to hard to trial for SQ.
• I am waiting for the EtherRegen but enjoying the TLS switch I have. 

I have reached some SQ limits in my room.  I have done NO room treatment or Roon DSP, etc. It is my living room and funky room treatments are out..  I am researching how to attack this problem from the USB side of the NUC.  My current focus are a pair of KII Three speakers!

 

Oh and my wife wants to use Alexa to play music in the LR!  She is afraid of it.  AS ke kicks himself!

 

I think that is enough on my plate for now.

 

Bob,

 

I've already built my NUC endpoints and now building my HQP server.  What what you said was a custom built server can be better that a general purpose Synology NAS, which I agree.  Hence I'm asking how to built a NAS because I thought that's what you mean.  Or could it be that the NAS in your context also plays music rather than a single purpose file server?

[greenleo]

1 hour ago, Chopin75 said:

I suppose is it fair to say that with each additional box/device there may be additional noise/jitter added and becomes significant by the time it reaches then DAC ? 

That's not entirely true unfortunately.  A new box may reduce the jitter as well.  Otherwise, IR will not exist.  It's fair to say that given the same amount of money, a multibox solution usually outperforms a single box solution.  Hence why we're here.

 

However, the noise between the upstream and downstream of a DAC (as an example) always needs attention.  

 

Finally, as an example, one may use Toslink to send data to a DAC.  In this case GI is perfect.  But the conversion from light to electrical inside the DAC will still introduce noises.

[bobfa]

19 minutes ago, greenleo said:

Bob,

 

I've already built my NUC endpoints and now building my HQP server.  What what you said was a custom built server can be better that a general purpose Synology NAS, which I agree.  Hence I'm asking how to built a NAS because I thought that's what you mean.  Or could it be that the NAS in your context also plays music rather than a single purpose file server?

I was confused I thought you wanted server that would sound better than a NAS.  I have no reason to build a NAS.  There is freeNAS software that should make that pretty simple.

[Chopin75]

1 hour ago, greenleo said:

That's not entirely true unfortunately.  A new box may reduce the jitter as well.  Otherwise, IR will not exist.  It's fair to say that given the same amount of money, a multibox solution usually outperforms a single box solution.  Hence why we're here.

 

However, the noise between the upstream and downstream of a DAC (as an example) always needs attention.  

 

Finally, as an example, one may use Toslink to send data to a DAC.  In this case GI is perfect.  But the conversion from light to electrical inside the DAC will still introduce noises.

Thanks for the explanation. It may be more cost effective with multi-box but I can't deal with any more boxes! To me simplicity is still better (if not the ultimate). I already have multiple amps for multichannel, with 5 speakers, CD, and SACD players + vinyl gig !. For now single box (or 2: PC + DAC) is most simplistic, if not the best. 

[greenleo]

13 minutes ago, Chopin75 said:

Thanks for the explanation. It may be more cost effective with multi-box but I can't deal with any more boxes! To me simplicity is still better (if not the ultimate). I already have multiple amps for multichannel, with 5 speakers, CD, and SACD players + vinyl gig !. For now single box (or 2: PC + DAC) is most simplistic, if not the best. 

PC + DAC is a single box solution.  Once you're in CAS, you may not need the CD and SACD player.  Mine are gone anyway. 

 

If money is no object, there are quite a few great single box solutions that should be within 25k.  But that should be in other threads.

[greenleo]

1 hour ago, bobfa said:

I was confused I thought you wanted server that would sound better than a NAS.  I have no reason to build a NAS.  There is freeNAS software that should make that pretty simple.

Thank you Bob.  Just read the FreeNAS things.  Will resort to the 119j which is more environmental friendly and cost effective.  Not sure about the SQ though.

[drjimwillie]

 Risk=Reward

 Humor is good between comrades 🙂

 

 I would like to share my listening experience  -  I recently added the Qnap HS453dx,  described to me as the audiophile NAS.  Fanless, Cleron J4105, 4GB RAM.  I could not get the Optane to work so I did not install an SSD.  

 I have a CAPS Pipeline as designed by Chris.  I am running windows 10, Roon and HQ player desktop.  Music internally on a SATA, EVO 1TB SSD.   External  HD Plex 300W ATX LPS. 

 I decided to move the music onto the HDD on the NAS.  To reduce processes on the Pipeline, I decide to try Roon the NAS.  Also because I was planning to run AL in RAM on the Pipeline, and I would not have to worry about the Roon database or updates.  The Pipeline would be a player/endpoint only. 

 On the NAS,  Roon is faster and more stable.   I put on Abbey Road from Tidal, and started at Because,  immediately I noticed that the music sounded better. The piano going into You never give me your money was sharper, and the part with the crickets, I heard detail in the background that I have never heard before, little chimes and things, going into the Sun king,  John’s breath between verses was prominent.   This was consistent with music from the HDD’s also, there is more space around the instruments.

 

 Now for the terrifying part.   Last night I ventured into the barren wilderness of AudioLinux and HQ Player embedded.  Previously I had help from the great tech-support at supermicro for changes to my BIOS,  to get the pipeline to boot from the USB drive and also in preparation to try to get an Optane drive to work.  What may be of interest to others is that the pipeline is not NVME.  Also Optane only comes in the M.2 form factor.  To get it to work I have put it into a Startech adapter for the PCIe slot.  This is the first time I have opened my pipeline since it was built for me by small green computer.   I did my homework and  needed the three guides I found to load in configure AL headless.  I loaded HQPe and, could not get sound.   Turns out I needed to choose the XMOS driver for my Holo Spring DAC.  Listening sounded good but not dramatically better than It had previously.  Then I loaded the OS into RAM. I would say  my impression is that the sound was quieter. And then I realized I had not loaded the files for my Acourate convolution engine.  By the time I had worked through this my wife was putting my child to bed.   I had to listen and very low volume, so it’s hard to get a good impression.   I wanted to listen to Abbey Road but I was having an issue with Tidal for the last day or so.  I knew I was exceeding my timeline for working on my system but I could not stop because of my compulsion. I solved the Tidal issue by reloading it after I reset my password. But by this time my wife came down and yelled at me for spending so much time on my system. She reminded me  of all of my responsibilities and suggested I could possibly take over some of hers. If she only knew  The depths of my obsession. 

 She is working from home today so I am having the mental debate of, do I  go in and listen to the system as it is to find out more about the subtleties or sneak in, pull out my computer, open it remove the SSD before I’m discovered, put it back together and then listen to it.  But that would be breaking the rule of making more than one change at a time. 

 From first impression I would say that moving my music and Roon to the NAS had a greater effect then AL in RAM with HQPe. 

 I noticed that on the HQPe configuration page that the driver had reverted back to USB from XMOS and I’m afraid to touch it because this is what had enabled the system to work previously. 

Oh,  I forgot to mention that two weeks ago I had rotator cuff surgery so I am working with one arm 😛

 It’s a great time to be an audiofool. 

 This is so much fun!  

 

[Neal.Audio]

^ @drjimwillie

 

Sorry about your rotator... had that three times. It's the worst. Follow the rehab protocol to the letter and things will go smoother.

[sandyk]

5 hours ago, drjimwillie said:

She is working from home today so I am having the mental debate of, do I  go in and listen to the system as it is to find out more about the subtleties or sneak in, pull out my computer, open it remove the SSD before I’m discovered, put it back together and then listen to it.  

 

Not a good idea if you prefer marital harmony, or at least some semblance of it.

[drjimwillie]

 Thanks for the encouragement.  I tore it snowboarding.  I was barely moving when it happened.  

All of the learning and preparation to make this quantum shift  in the evolution of my system  has been a good distraction. 

 I’m still not sure what to make of the change in the sound.  It is quieter.  Like the “extra “energy is gone.   I remember back when I got the audio Phileo,  and it removed a lot of the Jitter.  I remember thinking, this is what music sounds like.  

 The music is more of a cohesive whole. 

 I think it’s going to take a little bit to wrap my mind around what is going on. 

 It looks like tomorrow I’m going to have most of the day to myself do some more listening and enjoyment. 

 Then I can do some surgery myself and remove that SSD. 

 If I’m really brave I’ll get into the BIOS and see what I can find from those first screenshots in this thread, to remove.  Although this is a supermicro board and the BIOS is completely different.  

 Like Count Floyd  from second city television would say  “very scary “

[drjimwillie]

Disaster 

 I was going to tell you how great everything sounded, because it did.   I took notes for a great listening report. 

 

 The caps pipeline is in an HD Plex H5 case with the fancy switch on the front.   This switch never really worked right.  It would take multiple presses of the button to power on the Pipeline.   But, I could always get it to power on . Recently Larry sent me a new switch.  The day I was going to replace the switch there had been a power outage so the pipeline was off and I could not get it to power back on.  ( I have an ultra  isolation transformer  The surgery was not an issue )When I opened case I found that one of the two metal posts  had lost it’s nut  and the nut was sitting right there.  I replaced the switch.  It did not power on. The guys at supermicro had me remove the battery and touch these two metal nubs to reset the CMOS.   That worked. And the switch is working just fine.  That was last week. 

 This morning the music sounded great. Power down pull out the pipeline, put on my rubber gloves and my grounding strap, opened it up and pulled out the SSD. Put it back in the rack. It would not power on.  Pull it out of the rack and remove the only new item which was the Optane drive. Put it back in the rack. Those ATX LPS connectors are a pain with one hand,  compounded by an awkward reach.  Pulled it out of the rack remove the battery reset to CMOS, that not work either.  I thought one of the great values of this motherboard is that it has an IPVM which would allow you to access the bios even when it was powered down well, when you plug in the ethernet cable into the special port the light on the switch does not light up because there is no power in the computer. 

 Right now all I have is anguish anger and beer in my stomach   ( I waited to  have this beer until I was done with my diagnostics )

My  wife is going to come home and say “what did you do while I was gone“

 Well honey nothing on the list you gave me. 

I am out of ideas

 

[austinpop]

On 3/6/2019 at 10:23 PM, Neal.Audio said:

Renderers and Roon Volume Control

 

I've tried a number of Roon Ready DACs with renderers such as the Bricasti M5 Network Player, including the Bricasti M1 SE, the Chord Qutest, and the Ayre Codex. Volume control is always lost (grayed out) in the Roon application when using the M5. So my question is this: When the NUC7I7DNBE is used as an endpoint (renderer only), are users experiencing a loss of volume control with Roon? (Changing to fixed or variable setting in Roon makes no difference. Outputs also make no difference... same result with AES, SPDIF, or USB.)

 

Note that volume control is retained in Roon when plugging directly into the M1 SE DAC with the ethernet adapter on board. 

 

Good question, but I suspect this has less to do with the endpoint HW (NUC7I7DNBE or anything else) than it does with the DAC's implementation of SW volume control. I tend to use DACs in fixed volume mode, so I have no direct experience with this. 

 

Maybe others on this thread understand this issue more deeply, can help answer your question?

[Neal.Audio]

^ @austinpop

 

When trying this in different configurations, I suspected the same thing. However, when using the Bricasti M1 SE DAC with onboard ethernet, volume control was available. Yet when using a Bricasti M5 Network Player (which is the same ethernet card found in the M1 SE DAC), volume control was lost regardless of outputs used... AES, SPDIF, or USB.

 

What I'm really asking is for Roon users: Is volume control retained when using a homemade NUC renderer? 

[LTG2010]

15 hours ago, Neal.Audio said:

What I'm really asking is for Roon users: Is volume control retained when using a homemade NUC renderer?

I have 3 options here: DSP Volume, Fixed Volume and Device volume.

[bobfa]

38 minutes ago, LTG2010 said:

I have 3 options here: DSP Volume, Fixed Volume and Device volume.

 

I think that this is DAC dependent.  Research the DAC to see if it has USB Volume control.  

[LTG2010]

24 minutes ago, bobfa said:

I think that this is DAC dependent.  Research the DAC to see if it has USB Volume control.  

That was my point, probably not made clear the NUC won't affect device / DAC volume.

[Neal.Audio]

Thanks for chiming in, guys. Romaz was kind enough to send me this detailed answer... good news:

 

"Yes, Roon volume control works with the NUC and it works very well and I use it myself.  You have to set up the NUC with the "Device Volume" or "DSP Volume" option once connected to your Bricasti.  Either option provides you with a very high quality 64-bit dithered volume control meaning you start at 64-bits of resolution and it is completely lossless until you get below 24-bits or 16-bits of resolution depending on the bit depth of the file you're playing back.  This means you get full dynamics (without loss of resolution) as you go down in volume until whisper levels and this volume control is available on your Roon remote device (I.e. tablet or smartphone).  I find this volume control more handy and of higher quality than the resistor volume control on my Ayon preamp and so I use it exclusively."

[Neal.Audio]

Just a few more words concerning Roon volume control.

 

If the custom NUC didn't have Roon volume control, then this would be a deal breaker for me. Although I'll go to great lengths for the best sound, not at the expense of practical realities. I guess this means that my neurosis has not yet reached unhealthy levels (so I tell myself).

 

My phone is used to control music throughout my house. I'll never give this up, and will trade some sound quality in exchange for this ability.

 

I'm thankful that the NUC can do this... it solves other problems. For example, my shiny new Ayre QX-8 doesn't work with Roon volume control. If it weren't for the ability to use the custom NUC renderer, then the QX-8 can't work in my system. Such a feature in the NUC opens up many possibilities for using other (non-native Roon volume) DACs in my system too... no small thing. It also negates the need for onboard ethernet on DACs that have Roon volume capability.