A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[jean-michel6]

17 hours ago, sandyk said:

 That's why it is best to avoid using SSDs powered from the motherboard. It's far better to power internal SSDs from an additional low noise +5V voltage regulator using the +12V rail for it's input, for improved isolation from each other and other sensitive areas via the power supply. Internal SSDs are then able to readily outperform HDDs for SQ..

 I use a dual Low noise Voltage regulator PCB with 2 separate +5V outputs via John Linsley Hood designed <4uV noise PSU add-ons.

 Unfortunately, this is DIY.

Nothing is powered by the motherboard on my dual pc set up except now the HDD. 

My two SSD have been powered by a Michael Stammheim excellent LT3045 psu boards.  

 

Unfortunately ssd are generating noise. 

[sandyk]

35 minutes ago, jean-michel6 said:

My two SSD have been powered by a Michael Stammheim excellent LT3045 psu boards.  

 

 Unless the LT3045 have additional larger value (not Low ESR) electrolytic filter capacitors fitted in parallel, they WILL result in added HF detail which includes added harshness, or an increase in sibilance, as well as a boost in any existing HF noise  from the source material .

Any PSU which has a markedly decreasing impedance at >100kHz will result in this. This applies to Digital as well as Analogue applications . 

 The output impedance of a power supply should be as low as possible , and as flat as possible between DC and >100kHz, and preferably 1MHz. 

 If you used those boards without the additional filter capacitors in parallel , at least at their Input, for powering an Audio Amplifier you would almost certainly find this added HF detail too.
 Note also that Micael has been using daisy chained LT3045 PCBs to obtain an increase in HF detail with streaming, and his experiments in this area are well documented.

 

P.S.

 In the PSU that I showed in my photo previously, if I hadn't used a parallel combination of a normal type 4700uF capacitor in parallel with a Low ESR 4700uF capacitor in the Capacitance Multiplier section., but used 2 x parallel Low ESR type 4700uF instead, I would also have had too much HF detail DESPITE the PSU being used in a Digital area. In fact, I still have a minor increase in HF detail with both A and V, which helps to make up for generational copying losses.

[numlog]

@jean-michel6 what about for your OS?

 

I have noticed the same thing, HDD (if you can manage the mechanical noise) is superior as storage...  better resolution (''plankton'') and more smooth/natural at the same time, SSD only advantage might be faster sound (timing) but with the noise/glare dynamics are poor so the benefit is lost.

 

HDD for OS is not somthing that has been discussed much if at all, do we really know if SSDs are better for OS aside from practical reasons (load speed, easier to power)?

[sandyk]

38 minutes ago, numlog said:

SSD only advantage might be faster sound (timing) but with the noise/glare dynamics are poor so the benefit is lost.

 Because they are solid state devices, their faster switching results in a much higher level of RF/EMI being injected  back into other areas of the PC via the PSU. These switching artifacts have much faster rise and fall times than with an HDD too, which results in a wider bandwidth noise profile. That is why you need to isolate them from the main PSU as much as possible by further attention to detail in the PSU area, at least with high quality Audio applications.

 

 Incidentally, some HDD Data sheets also show the level and bandwidth of this noise output from the HDD going back into the power supply.

[jean-michel6]

1 hour ago, numlog said:

@jean-michel6 what about for your OS?

 

I have noticed the same thing, HDD (if you can manage the mechanical noise) is superior as storage...  better resolution (''plankton'') and more smooth/natural at the same time, SSD only advantage might be faster sound (timing) but with the noise/glare dynamics are poor so the benefit is lost.

 

HDD for OS is not somthing that has been discussed much if at all, do we really know if SSDs are better for OS aside from practical reasons (load speed, easier to power)?

For the Daphile OS both on the player side and server side , it is a USB key ( a tiny SSD ... ).

On the player side , the os is fully loaded in ram . You can after start up remove the USB key with an improvement in sound quality. 

On the server side I am experimenting now with SD card with slc type memory. 

[jean-michel6]

2 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 Unless the LT3045 have additional larger value (not Low ESR) electrolytic filter capacitors fitted in parallel, they WILL result in added HF detail which includes added harshness, or an increase in sibilance, as well as a boost in any existing HF noise  from the source material .

Any PSU which has a markedly decreasing impedance at >100kHz will result in this. This applies to Digital as well as Analogue applications . 

 The output impedance of a power supply should be as low as possible , and as flat as possible between DC and >100kHz, and preferably 1MHz. 

 If you used those boards without the additional filter capacitors in parallel , at least at their Input, for powering an Audio Amplifier you would almost certainly find this added HF detail too.
 Note also that Micael has been using daisy chained LT3045 PCBs to obtain an increase in HF detail with streaming, and his experiments in this area are well documented.

 

P.S.

 In the PSU that I showed in my photo previously, if I hadn't used a parallel combination of a normal type 4700uF capacitor in parallel with a Low ESR 4700uF capacitor in the Capacitance Multiplier section., but used 2 x parallel Low ESR type 4700uF instead, I would also have had too much HF detail DESPITE the PSU being used in a Digital area. In fact, I still have a minor increase in HF detail with both A and V, which helps to make up for generational copying losses.

I understand your comment and may be the psu I am using may mean an increase in hf detail but not in hf noise. 

Since  my SSD psu are totally separate from the mobo psu , it seems to mean that the harshness was coming from the data side of rhe SSD .

[sandyk]

2 minutes ago, jean-michel6 said:

I understand your comment and may be the psu I am using may mean an increase in hf detail but not in hf noise. 

Since  my SSD psu are totally separate from the mobo psu , it seems to mean that the harshness was coming from the data side of rhe SSD . 

   

 Any noise present in the original signal will also be increased ,a bit like using a treble control in a Preamplifier where you may notice Hiss from earlier Analogue recordings that may not have been obvious initially.

 The increase in noise is more evident though with Live performance Music Videos (e.g. S.N.L.) ,where you can actually see the extra background noise content along with increased HF detail of both A and V.

[austinpop]

This thread has just crossed an impressive milestone: 1 million views!

[Aberrant-Decoder]

1 million and 1 now!

[davide256]

17 hours ago, sandyk said:

 Because they are solid state devices, their faster switching results in a much higher level of RF/EMI being injected  back into other areas of the PC via the PSU. These switching artifacts have much faster rise and fall times than with an HDD too, which results in a wider bandwidth noise profile. That is why you need to isolate them from the main PSU as much as possible by further attention to detail in the PSU area, at least with high quality Audio applications.

 

 Incidentally, some HDD Data sheets also show the level and bandwidth of this noise output from the HDD going back into the power supply.

mehhh.... this only matters if you use the PC for direct connection to DAC. Can't say that it holds true for streaming where all you have to worry about

is insuring that on the server side SSD access is glacially slow compared to audio processing...

[seeteeyou]

I was hoping that @romaz might have tried €11,000 Innuos ZENith Statement / €19,000 Aurender A30 / €20,000 SGM Extreme Server and compared them, just curious to know how his modified NUC7i7DNBE + sCLK-EX + Habst + REF 10 combo would stack up against those giants.

 

Let's see if someone else were able to paraphrase his impressions then.

[austinpop]

9 hours ago, austinpop said:

This thread has just crossed an impressive milestone: 1 million views!

 

8 hours ago, Aberrant-Decoder said:

1 million and 1 now!

 

I know, we're not exactly saving the planet or anything  

 

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, seeteeyou said:

I was hoping that @romaz might have tried €11,000 Innuos ZENith Statement / €19,000 Aurender A30 / €20,000 SGM Extreme Server and compared them, just curious to know how his modified NUC7i7DNBE + sCLK-EX + Habst + REF 10 combo would stack up against those giants.

 

Let's see if someone else were able to paraphrase his impressions then.

 

Don't hold your breath. I'm not aware he has any plans to do so. Since I also have the "modified NUC7i7DNBE + sCLK-EX + Habst + REF 10 combo," all I can say is my urge to tinker has faded (not disappeared!), and I'm just enjoying my music now.

[sgr]

While I applaud the interest and information, I feel these threads get too long and disorganized as they continue. There needs to be a way to break it into categories or subtopics.  Not being critical as I don’t think there is a way to prevent this in the format we’ve invented. 

But it would be nice if each topic could be separated out under the broad umbrella then bridging, NUCs, etc 

[bobfa]

SGR,

 

In the original post there are a series of links to the lead areas for different subjects.  There are several branches for AudioLinux and more.  I have posted a couple of new threads on building servers and endpoints. @lmitche has a thread on AL server software as examples.  I feel your pain.  This is a people and platform use problem that is not simply solved.  I have mis -posted or talked about an OT item on. A thread.  (This is OT).   

[sgr]

Deleted

[sgr]

Deleter

[the_doc735]

2 hours ago, sgr said:

While I applaud the interest and information, I feel these threads get too long and disorganized as they continue. There needs to be a way to break it into categories or subtopics.  Not being critical as I don’t think there is a way to prevent this in the format we’ve invented. 

But it would be nice if each topic could be separated out under the broad umbrella then bridging, NUCs, etc 

+1

[Johnseye]

4 hours ago, sgr said:

While I applaud the interest and information, I feel these threads get too long and disorganized as they continue. There needs to be a way to break it into categories or subtopics.  Not being critical as I don’t think there is a way to prevent this in the format we’ve invented. 

But it would be nice if each topic could be separated out under the broad umbrella then bridging, NUCs, etc 

 

And to address the point of the post you deleted...

 

The index of this thread is a blessing and not many posts have it.  You can also bookmark individual posts yourself which not all forums have.  If you consider the amount of time and effort involved in maintaining not only the content of the thread, but the people who visit it with their opinions and input, it's a huge time sink.  This isn't anyone's full time job.  Someone shared some of their personal findings which have influenced countless people's enjoyment of music.  That person didn't have time to tend the interest that blossomed and so @austinpop graciously donates his time.  I wouldn't want to do it and I only contribute when I can.

 

I realize you meant to try and help improve the thread.   I don't read any malice in your post and you tried to address the topic as delicately as possible.  Maybe Rajiv would allow someone like yourself to help improve things if you were willing to put the time in.  Not sure if it's even possible to share that authority.   You could always copy the index out, restructure it and submit it to him for an approval or suggestion.

[the_doc735]

right; as far as music file storage is concerned (& playback) have I understood this correctly please?

 

The best solution is to use an external drive with independent LPSU? And the drive should be HDD, not SSD?

 

OR, is there an even better solution like loading playing music files into RAM?

 

many thanks in advance!

[sandyk]

28 minutes ago, the_doc735 said:

The best solution is to use an external drive with independent LPSU? And the drive should be HDD, not SSD?

 

 

 If you are using a quality, low noise and low output impedance LPSU, the SSD should be every bit as good, if not better than with an HDD.

 Don't forget too, that HDD are electro mechanical  (usually 5,400 or 7,200 RPM) devices which may lack the very high stability of an SSD, thus an SSD having the possibility of lower Jitter as well as (normally *)   no Acoustic noise.

 

I don't  think that others have mentioned this aspect before ?

 

 * The internal inductors in some earlier SSDs " chirped"

[the_doc735]

12 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 

 If you are using a quality, low noise and low output impedance LPSU, the SSD should be every bit as good, if not better than with an HDD.

 Don't forget too, that HDD are electro mechanical  (usually 5,400 or 7,200 RPM) devices which may lack the very high stability of an SSD, thus an SSD having the possibility of lower Jitter as well as (normally *)   no Acoustic noise.

 

I don't  think that others have mentioned this aspect before ?

 

 * The internal inductors in some earlier SSDs " chirped"

really! wow!

see this search: https://audiophilestyle.com/search/?q=ssd vs. hdd.......

throws up lots of contradictions in the SSD/HDD debate: esp. saying that SSD has far too much noise compared to HDD, and that SSD should never be used for file playback, too thin, too noisy, too artificial etc?

OR is it a case of try them all and see what you prefer personally?

 

Up to now my first built music PC, one box solution with a USB memory stick for file storage sounded the best, even though I have now tried 2 or 3 much more complicated solutions they are not any better than what I started out with originally! And I haven't even reached the clock/re-clock bit yet! And the NUC/AL/RAM playback route is pulling me in as well.

 

Cheers!

[the_doc735]

At the moment my files are stored on SSD internal to my Syn.DS218+ NAS. I was thinking of connecting a SSD or HDD externally via eSATA with a 5V lpsu in a caddy, going on what I have read in the SSD vs. HDD threads. That was my intention, Now I'm not so sure once again!

 

Cheers! 

[sandyk]

53 minutes ago, the_doc735 said:

really! wow!

see this search: https://audiophilestyle.com/search/?q=ssd vs. hdd.......

throws up lots of contradictions in the SSD/HDD debate: esp. saying that SSD has far too much noise compared to HDD, and that SSD should never be used for file playback, too thin, too noisy, too artificial etc? 

That is misinformation.

 In fact, some years ago at a  Computer Audiophile Symposium organised by Chris Connaker , SSD was preferred over HDD, with HDD sounding a little " muddy sounding" in comparison according to Chris IIRC.

 Both SSD and HDD inject wideband noise back into the main PSU, with SSD having a wider bandwidth RF/EMI due to it's faster Data rise and fall times. However, improving the PSU area to help prevent this getting back into the main PSU will markedly improve this area.

 That is why I regulate my PC's +12V supply down to 2 separate, much less noisy and isolated +5V supplies for my OS and Music internal SSDs.

[sandyk]

28 minutes ago, the_doc735 said:

Up to now my first built music PC, one box solution with a USB memory stick for file storage sounded the best

 This can be further improved by using a USB Regen powered with a clean separate battery derived or quiet Linear PSU for the USB memory stick, WITH  a USB  adaptor to plug in the Regen which doesn't extend the internal noisy +5V USB power or shield connections .

 Disconnecting the shield connection prevents a possible earth loop due to the USB memory stick and many other USB devices internally connecting the shield and 0Volt ("Earth") wires.