Building a DIY Music Server

[Downtheline]

5 minutes ago, Nenon said:

 

It works as a regular NVME storage for the OS. The OS loads to RAM on boot. So there is very little / almost no I/O after the OS is loaded. The common believe why this particular Optane card sounds so good is because it consumes very little power while idle... and most likely that generates less noise.

Thanks!

 

I think you have also used the pink faun i2s bridge in some of your builds. I may use an AMD CPU to be able to use the i2s bridge, but prefer the intel i9-9900k with the maximus gene XI mobo... pink faun says some intel CPUs work with their bridge, some don't. Do you know first hand if these play well together? Anyone else care to chime in?

Thank you again

[Nenon]

2 minutes ago, Downtheline said:

I think you have also used the pink faun i2s bridge in some of your builds. I may use an AMD CPU to be able to use the i2s bridge, but prefer the intel i9-9900k with the maximus gene XI mobo... pink faun says some intel CPUs work with their bridge, some don't. Do you know first hand if these play well together? Anyone else care to chime in?

Thank you again

 

I do. the PinkFaun I2S bridge would NOT work on the i9-9900k with the maximus gene XI mobo. That's one of the reasons I went the AMD route some time ago. 

[Downtheline]

1 hour ago, Nenon said:

 

I do. the PinkFaun I2S bridge would NOT work on the i9-9900k with the maximus gene XI mobo. That's one of the reasons I went the AMD route some time ago. 

Ok that solves that issue! Any idea if the PF i2s bridge would work with xeon 4210 and a supermicro microATX mobo (I know, pretty specific). 

[Nenon]

I need to practise pipe bending more (definitely not my skill), but here is my first attempt to passively cool two Xeon CPUs in the ASUS SAGE motherboard used by Taiko Extreme.

 

I know it looks ugly but it works. In fact the longer ugly looking pipes on the left give me 4 degrees lower temperature than the stock HDPlex pipes on the top right. Perhaps because they cover more surface area? Or they are better quality? Or both? 

 

Still a lot of work to do on this build... it's not ready if you are planning to ask. 

[Downtheline]

24 minutes ago, Nenon said:

two Xeon CPUs

Interesting.  You doubled up the hdplex heat sink cpu mounts and seem to have added some generic heat sinks to the uncovered edges of each cpu. How do you attach the heat sink cpu mounts to the socket?  2 screws each? 

 

I was just told the case was incompatible with the socket! This looks great!

[Nenon]

1 minute ago, Downtheline said:

Interesting.  You doubled up the hdplex heat sink cpu mounts and seem to have added some generic heat sinks to the uncovered edges of each cpu. How do you attach the heat sink cpu mounts to the socket?  2 screws each? 

 

I was just told the case was incompatible with the socket! This looks great!

 

The case is indeed incompatible with those Xeon CPUs. The LGA3647 socket has a completely different mounting mechanism - four screws. I custom made my own cooling kit. Had to use the cooling kits of four HDPlex fanless cases. I took a LGA3647 fan mounting kit and modified it. Took some pictures during the process and will post them when I have more time. 

[Alexis]

Hello!

I am going to make my first single-box audio streamer and would like to ask for advice. In order not to multiply the threads I’m asking a few short questions here.

My current system looks like a laptop with JRiver + Sotm dX-USB HD + Metrum Musette DAC. Music sources are library on XigmaNAS and Tidal.

The music streamer is supposed to include:

1. Euphony OS.

2. HD Plex H5 + 400W NanoATX combo (future replacement for LPS).

3. PinkFaun USB Bridge or SPDIF Bridge. The 1^st question is what will be better: PinkFaun USB Bridge + SOTM or PinkFaun SPDIF Bridge?

4. The 2^nd question is AMD (Ryzen 5) or Intel (Core i5) platform? Euphony make its servers on Intel, PinkFaun on AMD. I understand that in terms of SQ it’s reasonable to rely on personal preferences (and here my choice is more likely to be a smoother AMD), but what do you recommend in terms of better compatibility with PinkFaun Bridge and Euphony? Would CPU without a Graphics Processor be preferable?

[Nenon]

5 hours ago, Alexis said:

The 1^st question is what will be better: PinkFaun USB Bridge + SOTM or PinkFaun SPDIF Bridge?

That depends on your DAC and whether it sounds better with USB or SPDIF. 

 

5 hours ago, Alexis said:

The 2^nd question is AMD (Ryzen 5) or Intel (Core i5) platform? Euphony make its servers on Intel, PinkFaun on AMD. I understand that in terms of SQ it’s reasonable to rely on personal preferences (and here my choice is more likely to be a smoother AMD), but what do you recommend in terms of better compatibility with PinkFaun Bridge and Euphony?

In terms of compatibility with the PinkFaun SPDIF bridge, you would have to use AMD. It won't work with the Core i5.

PinkFaun USB works fine with both. Euphony also works fine with both. 

Even CPUs under the same series (i.e. Ryzen 5 or Core i5) can sound different. 

 

5 hours ago, Alexis said:

Would CPU without a Graphics Processor be preferable?

It's one of many factors to consider. I would not say that generally speaking CPUs without GPU sound better. I've heard CPUs with GPUs that sound better than CPUs without. I've also heard the opposite. 

 

There are several documented good builds on this thread and this forum. You can try one of them. It depends on your budget of course. 

The Intel NUC7i7DNBE is a good start. The builds in this thread are a significant step up from the NUC.

BTW, someone compared the NUCs to a BMW and the builds here to a Rolls Royce. That's far from true in my opinion. I would not give the NUC a BMW status. In the best case it's more like a Honda Civic in my books. 

Whatever you do, invest the most on power. It's the most important part. I typically invest a lot more (at least double) on the power supply than the computer parts. 

[Downtheline]

On 5/3/2020 at 8:10 PM, Nenon said:

I took a LGA3647 fan mounting kit and modified it. 

Which fan did you use? Have you tried the pink faun i2s bridge yet?

 

I'm excited to see more of your pics!

[djwalter2000]

First, I'd like to thank all of the contributors to this thread. It has been fantastic reading.

 

I set out almost a year ago to build an audio PC intended to be primarily a streamer, borrowing ideas from Innuos. Thanks to Nenon, I've ordered some Apacer RAM to see if it can have a positive impact over my Samsung branded.

 

My system is

• ASRock ITX based with onboard J1900

• Win10 Pro, with requisite BIOS config changes to power off unused ports and widely published Win settings to optimize. Haven't tried Audiophile Optimizer or MinorityClean.

• Samsung SSD with Elfidelity II power noise filter

• JCAT Net Femto

• Matrix Element H USB 

• Silverstone ML-06E case with some MAST RF foam on lid over CPU

• Spring isolation under case

• 4 Linear Power Supplies - motherboard, JCAT, Matrix and SSD

Feeding the JCAT is Wireworld Starlight 8 from an Uptone EtherRegen (Gophert PS). USB Audioquest Diamond out to a Matrix X-SPDIF 2 (6v battery powered), then Audioquest Mocha HDMI to a PS Audio Directstream DAC.

 

My goal was to build something Windows based, taking budget allowable steps. File playback for me is secondary and, less frequently, I'll dig up something rare or live on YouTube. 

 

The eye openers for me in this thread were reclocking the motherboard (didn't realize this was possible) and the idea of dual precessors to split OS and audio duties. I still have a ton to learn.

 

To do list:

• Improved LPS. I have Zero Zone today.

• Improved DC cables. A mix of lower end Ghent and generics.

• Software enhancements. MinorityClean seems interesting.

[sig8]

Nenon: The Xeon based server you are making; would it be able to do HQP DSD64 to DSD512? My current i9900k does it easily. I do not know how two 2.2Mhz processors would compare to a single 3.6MHz processor. I know you are still working on it, but theoretically how would it compare? 

[Nenon]

On 5/4/2020 at 10:53 PM, Downtheline said:

Have you tried the pink faun i2s bridge yet?

Yes. It works fine with those CPUs.

 

4 hours ago, sig8 said:

The Xeon based server you are making; would it be able to do HQP DSD64 to DSD512?

You have more cores (a lot more) but lower clock speed. I would actually go with AMD for HQP. No need for HQP in my system, so this build would be tweaked for high CPU/process isolation. 

 

Speaking of high CPU/process isolation, I am also planning to try Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC 2019 instead of Euphony. I actually just happened to have access to the IOT version as well, which is what the Extreme uses. Since I don't have root access to Euphony, it is hard to optimise everything properly with the limited Expert Settings in Euphony. Windows would give me a much finer level of control. It would be interesting to try Windows again after I have been a Euphony fan for a long time. Tweaking this server properly takes a lot of time. But I think it's worth it. I also needed a really good power supply for this build. But I will share more info on that some other time. 

My custom industrial RAM is due at the end of the month. Quite excited about that. 

[ASRMichael]

25 minutes ago, Nenon said:

Yes. It works fine with those CPUs.

 

You have more cores (a lot more) but lower clock speed. I would actually go with AMD for HQP. No need for HQP in my system, so this build would be tweaked for high CPU/process isolation. 

 

Speaking of high CPU/process isolation, I am also planning to try Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC 2019 instead of Euphony. I actually just happened to have access to the IOT version as well, which is what the Extreme uses. Since I don't have root access to Euphony, it is hard to optimise everything properly with the limited Expert Settings in Euphony. Windows would give me a much finer level of control. It would be interesting to try Windows again after I have been a Euphony fan for a long time. Tweaking this server properly takes a lot of time. But I think it's worth it. I also needed a really good power supply for this build. But I will share more info on that some other time. 

My custom industrial RAM is due at the end of the month. Quite excited about that. 

Moving to the Dark Side of the force!!!!! 😂

 

Presume using Windows you will be able to set tasks to run on dedicated sticks of RAM? 

 

What tweaking are you planning on doing? maybe Euphony can give me tweaking options?
 

 

[Hauser]

Nenon's server build thread has inspired me to consider building my first server, not that I'm unhappy with the Aries, but curious to see what more may lie ahead.  The Z390 ITX seemed an attractive, compact and not too challenging approach.  What I've found though, is the rapid obsolescence of computer gear.  The motherboard is being replaced by the Z490 and a new CPU socket.  The new boards look impressive with a lot of heatsink armour and the new CPUs come with a TDP of 125W.  A recipe for heat issues?

 

Nenon's latest build involves Intel's LGA 3467 socketed Xeon CPU, stunningly showcased by Taiko with an equally impressive price.  A good deal of time spent on Google rewarded me with info on another server; Phasure's Stealth 3.  This uses an Asrock board with the option of several Xeon CPUs and pre dates the arrival of the Extreme.  Coincidentally, both products derive from the Netherlands so possibly some cross fertilisation of ideas.  That said, the Stealth has a rudimentary almost DIY construction with the only standout features being the proprietary LPS and software.  The CPU is the most expensive component in the build.  I have not heard this server but all the customer posts have been positive and the developer's possibly biased and unique Dutch/English posts translate to me the server warrants some consideration, not least because of its implementation.  It has been built to use HQ player, controlled by Windows 10 and consumes 56W when active.  This is achieved by running the CPU at 960MHz, the DIMMS at 1886MHz and a 14/28 core CPU with core count reduced to 10/20; a radically different approach to say the Z390 optimisation.  I'm wondering if this is how the Extreme operates?

 

Where Nenon made the post that his recent AMD and Intel builds sounded different rather than one or the other better, I think the Scalable Xeon may be the path to something better.

 

I'm not game to try a dual CPU board build and having read the thread on the Phasure site, feel that complexity may not be justified.  The Asrock mATX board I was looking for is no longer available.  They do offer an ITX but it has the usual constraints; 1 PCIE x 16, 2 x M.2 and only 4 DIMM slots.  Supermicro's mATX  X11 SPM TPF has several ethernet variants and 3 PCIE slots, 1 x M.2.  This with a 4214 CPU will probably be my choice.

 

It would be interesting to know how Nenon's custom RAM performs.

 

Martin.

[Hauser]

Just read Nenon's Monday post and mention of trying Windows instead of Euphony.  I hope this doesn't come across as me being a shill for Phasure, but they offer a selection of OS for the Stealth that can be purchased separately.

 

Martin.

[RickyV]

1 hour ago, Hauser said:

Phasure's Stealth 3

 

1 hour ago, Hauser said:

selection of OS

 

These are products from @PeterSt brain. He posts here on AS too sometimes. 

[guiltyboxswapper]

2 hours ago, Hauser said:

Nenon's server build thread has inspired me to consider building my first server, not that I'm unhappy with the Aries, but curious to see what more may lie ahead.

 

I had an opticalRendu with the MPAudio LSIB PSU.  My host system, a Ryzen 3900X with a dirty SMPS PSU but Apacer industrial RAM, armed with a JCAT USB XE and the same MPAudio LSIB powering the XE card sent the opticalRendu packing.   The sonore opticalRendu / Signature Rendu optical is very well "received" by many as well.

 

The real shocker is the fact I can run HQPlayer from the same "noisy" machine and it still exceeds the opticalRendu and not in a small way at all.  With the previous gen JCAT USB card, using a previous gen CPU/Mobo (intel 6800K), running a 2 box setup was the ideal path for HQPlayer.

 

For HQPlayer it seems sending 50mbit/s over the network to another endpoint - even by optical - means a huge loss in dynamics across the spectrum.

 

Colour me surprised.

[matthias]

39 minutes ago, guiltyboxswapper said:

 

I had an opticalRendu with the MPAudio LSIB PSU.  My host system, a Ryzen 3900X with a dirty SMPS PSU but Apacer industrial RAM, armed with a JCAT USB XE and the same MPAudio LSIB powering the XE card sent the opticalRendu packing.   The sonore opticalRendu / Signature Rendu optical is very well "received" by many as well.

 

The real shocker is the fact I can run HQPlayer from the same "noisy" machine and it still exceeds the opticalRendu and not in a small way at all.  With the previous gen JCAT USB card, using a previous gen CPU/Mobo (intel 6800K), running a 2 box setup was the ideal path for HQPlayer.

 

For HQPlayer it seems sending 50mbit/s over the network to another endpoint - even by optical - means a huge loss in dynamics across the spectrum.

 

Colour me surprised.

 

Congratulations,

you are in good company with others like @romaz who found the same.

 

When you have an excellent server this "endpoint" concept comes to an end. It is very enlightening to read the Taiko Extreme thread on WBF. When you combine the Extreme with an endpoint the SQ is inferior to the Extreme alone. The same when the Extreme itself is an endpoint and has another server as source. 

 

For me endpoints do not make any sense at all, the best is to have an UHQ server with excellent USB output into an DAC.

 

Enjoy:-)

 

Matt

[Downtheline]

3 hours ago, Hauser said:

Supermicro's mATX  X11 SPM TPF has several ethernet variants and 3 PCIE slots, 1 x M.2.  This with a 4214 CPU will probably be my choice

Biggist issue with this approach seems to be cooling the cpu. There are no off the shelf fanless cooling options for this big cpu. I see that nenon was able to solve that problem, but not yet sure how. 

[dminches]

1 hour ago, matthias said:

 

Congratulations,

you are in good company with others like @romaz who found the same.

 

When you have an excellent server this "endpoint" concept comes to an end. It is very enlightening to read the Taiko Extreme thread on WBF. When you combine the Extreme with an endpoint the SQ is inferior to the Extreme alone. The same when the Extreme itself is an endpoint and has another server as source. 

 

For me endpoints do not make any sense at all, the best is to have an UHQ server with excellent USB output into an DAC.

 

Enjoy:-)

 

Matt

 

Great points and something I have found to be the case as well even though I am not running an Extreme.

 

My biggest roadblock now is that I would love to have my files loaded on a card inside the server and not pull them from my NAS.  The issue is the amount of music I have.

 

[ray-dude]

1 hour ago, matthias said:

 

Congratulations,

you are in good company with others like @romaz who found the same.

 

When you have an excellent server this "endpoint" concept comes to an end. It is very enlightening to read the Taiko Extreme thread on WBF. When you combine the Extreme with an endpoint the SQ is inferior to the Extreme alone. The same when the Extreme itself is an endpoint and has another server as source. 

 

For me endpoints do not make any sense at all, the best is to have an UHQ server with excellent USB output into an DAC.

 

Enjoy:-)

 

Matt

 

I am continually being surprised by the impact of network traffic (and network topology) on SQ.  The EtherREGEN started me down this path (surprise -> attention and study) but the rabbit hole is much vaster than signal regeneration.  Honestly, I thought this would be at the minor tweak level, but there seems to be something fairly fundamental going on here.

 

Having just switched from a 2 box i7 NUC setup to an Extreme, the impact of network traffic and topology has become at least an order of magnitude more obvious (more surprise -> more attention and study   I'll have more to share next week, but when running the Extreme as an end point (Roon, HQP, etc) on the native Windows or booting to Linux from a USB stick, you are giving up a lot compared to running everything on Extreme in a one box solution.

 

 

 

 

[adamaley]

1 hour ago, matthias said:

 

Congratulations,

you are in good company with others like @romaz who found the same.

 

When you have an excellent server this "endpoint" concept comes to an end. It is very enlightening to read the Taiko Extreme thread on WBF. When you combine the Extreme with an endpoint the SQ is inferior to the Extreme alone. The same when the Extreme itself is an endpoint and has another server as source. 

 

For me endpoints do not make any sense at all, the best is to have an UHQ server with excellent USB output into an DAC.

 

Enjoy:-)

 

Matt

 

I wholly agree. After building Nenon's Ryzen 3700X / ASUS ROG Crosshair VII build from this forum, I was surprised by the delta with which it overtook the ultraRendu in my system. Mind you, this is even with a run of the mill ATX power supply powering CPU, motherboard, and all PCIE cards. The ultraRendu was being powered by a Farad Super3 - I was flabbergasted. 

[auricgoldfinger]

Cue thread invasion from vortecjr. 

[adamaley]

Well, the cost differential between the ultraRendu and the new server is quite significant to not support a fair comparison, tbh. I do love my etherRegen though 🙂

[Dev]

I sometimes wonder if the issue related to single server being better than a server/endpoint concept to be not so much on the hardware side but related to software being lossy in some way. If we assume that “low noise” (mind you, i haven’t said “low power”) system connected to a DAC vastly improves SQ, then theoretically an extreme server and extreme client combo is supposed to be at par or even better than a single extreme but that’s not the case. This leads me to believe that either the s/w and it’s communicating protocol being lossy, incur more latency or the network interface between the server and client is generating a noise pattern which is detrimental to SQ or a combination of both.
 

As for a high power server, I echo others sentiment. I have started dabbling my hands onto it and all I can say at this time is after hearing it even with ATX power supply and with the Jcat usb and Net powered PH SR4, I can never ever go back to any of the Rendu’s or for that matter a NUC. I have planned for a diy Lps for this new server and have parts coming in slowly. So will see how much further I can take it in terms of SQ but Emily, @romaz, @Nenon has been bang for the buck right on this !!!

 

My previous “high powered” server (was a dual PC setup) built couple of years ago was a 4th gen i7 S version with low TDP and onboard clock replaced with TCXO. This setup was trumped by a NUCi7 powered by excellent quality power supply. Admittedly, the newer generation of motherboard and CPUs are much ahead of the game in terms of technology advancement (larger cache, more cores, faster base clock, more PCI lanes and many more) which also has brought significant  SQ improvements as many of you have found out through various experiments - thanks to all the forerunners like @romaz, @Nenon and others.