The EtherREGEN thread for various network, cable, power experiences and experiments

[skatbelt]

12 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

No, our stance has always just been that an upgraded clock and power supply are not required in order to enjoy the majority of the benefits of the EtherREGEN.

But producing the device with provision for those to be added allowed us to offer the basic (yet still VERY advanced!) switch at reasonable cost, and for those who wish to carry it further.

We could build a big EtherREGEN with state-of-the-art AC>DC power supply and top-end OCXO built in (plus other enhancements), but the price would then be several thousand. Not going there anytime soon... 

 

To check if my memory had failed me I read back and during the launch of the ER you literally said that it would take a very high-end master clock to gain benefits, is there were are any.

 

Have you come back from this thought? And have you actually experienced yourself that an external clock delivers significant improvements? If so, which types did you experiment with?

 

[LowMidHigh]

5 minutes ago, skatbelt said:

 

To check if my memory had failed me I read back and during the launch of the ER you literally said that it would take a very high-end master clock to gain benefits, is there were are any.

 

Have you come back from this thought? And have you actually experienced yourself that an external clock delivers significant improvements? If so, which types did you experiment with?

 

 

John S discussed in one of his posts at which phase noise an external clock would boost the ER performance.

Sorry I can't dig it up--not time :)

 

 

[Mops911]

5 hours ago, LowMidHigh said:

which phase noise

I think the value was -130dB at 10Hz

 

I just wonder more generic. If lets say the eR improves sound by +1 (whatever that is), how much improvements do peripherals do?

 

- Clock? +0.2?

- good LPS, +0.25?

- cables and others, +0.1?

 

I get the diminishing returns, but if a decent clock (AfterDark Prince) with its own LPS would only add 20% of SQ but 100% in price, its likely not worth it....

 

Any thoughts?

[Ponkbutler]

20 minutes ago, Mops911 said:

I think the value was -130dB at 10Hz

 

I just wonder more generic. If lets say the eR improves sound by +1 (whatever that is), how much improvements do peripherals do?

 

- Clock? +0.2?

- good LPS, +0.25?

- cables and others, +0.1?

 

I get the diminishing returns, but if a decent clock (AfterDark Prince) with its own LPS would only add 20% of SQ but 100% in price, its likely not worth it....

 

Any thoughts?

 

I've not played with clocks (yet) but adding a Sean Jacobs LPS to the ER was almost as big as adding the ER in the first place.

 

[skatbelt]

1 hour ago, Mops911 said:

I think the value was -130dB at 10Hz

 

I just wonder more generic. If lets say the eR improves sound by +1 (whatever that is), how much improvements do peripherals do?

 

- Clock? +0.2?

- good LPS, +0.25?

- cables and others, +0.1?

 

I get the diminishing returns, but if a decent clock (AfterDark Prince) with its own LPS would only add 20% of SQ but 100% in price, its likely not worth it....

 

Any thoughts?

 

Exactly what I was thinking. In my setup an EUR 3000 Mutec Ref-10 didn't improve anything. A good LPS did improve a lot. Going from copper to fiber was the icing on the cake.

 

May be the EUR 5000 Ref-10 120 or a higher line Afterdark clock will squeeze out a bit. Quite a few members are stating this. But this money is probably much, much better spent buying a better streamer, DAC etc.

 

What I find difficult to filter in all this is that Uptone and Afterdark are commercially linked. I know this is a sponsored forum but still.

[Rsbrsvp]

I have a Ref 10 SE-120 and it definitely improves sound.  I agree that the PS is more important.

 

I must admit that the improvement when using my Mutec OXCO only on the etherregen is not huge; call it more than subtle, but not much more than that.

 

However my Mutec is also hooked up to my DAC, DDC, SOTM TX-USB ULTRA, and soon a second etherregen.  The only extra expense in hooking up the Mutec to multiple components is an inexpensive BNC digital cable.

 

The combined effect of multiple connections is much more substantial.

 

Forgive me for being so straightforward, but no normal person is going to buy a $4,000 or more OXCO just for an etherregen. Such a person would be crazy.  However- once the connection is made to 4-5 devices within the same system, the worth of the Mutec is increased.  It is hard to define the TOTAL value of the Mutec in %, but the overall result is noticeably fuller sound, much better bass, much more focused sound, much better imaging and more transparent sound.   $4000 is still a lot of money, but if you want the best it costs. 

[Nikko1960]

1 hour ago, AfterDark. said:

 

Hi! skatbelt,

 

We believe the entry Giesemann Queen or King can give you the improvement which is immediately noticeable for EtherREGEN. If Mutec does not really favourable or noticeable in your system, it is worth to try something new which can have more favourable impact for your fine system. 

 

Best Regards,

Adrian

AfterDark. 

 

Look, I'm not on the AD payroll or anything.  I bought the Queen 75ohm square wave special deal from Adrian, along with matching LPSU, and it's made a huge improvement to my music.  I only wish I had listened to Adrian's initial advice, which was to buy the Emperor version.

 

I have a highly resolving system, so YMMV.

[MartinT]

45 minutes ago, Rsbrsvp said:

 

The combined effect of multiple connections is much more substantial.

 

 

I agree.  The impact of the AfterDark on my Mutec (the last link before DAC) is huge, I don't say it lightly.  Right now, the ER is back to its internal clock.  I will try running external when my Mini-Circuits splitter arrives.  However, being upstream of the ultraRendu streamer, I expect it to make less impact than with the Mutec.

[Pokey77]

22 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

No, our stance has always just been that an upgraded clock and power supply are not required in order to enjoy the majority of the benefits of the EtherREGEN.

But producing the device with provision for those to be added allowed us to offer the basic (yet still VERY advanced!) switch at reasonable cost, and for those who wish to carry it further.

We could build a big EtherREGEN with state-of-the-art AC>DC power supply and top-end OCXO built in (plus other enhancements), but the price would then be several thousand. Not going there anytime soon... 

Would like to see the BIG ER option. Get rid of extra power supplies, power cords, etc. I understand, not until 2022!

[Superdad]

4 hours ago, skatbelt said:

What I find difficult to filter in all this is that Uptone and Afterdark are commercially linked.

No, the only link between UpTone and AfterDark is that AfterDark is a dealer for UpTone in Hong Kong/China region. And not even exclusive dealer there--we have two others as well.

AfterDark is creating their own products and they enjoy promoting them for use with the hugely successful EtherREGEN.  They also enjoy selling our JS-2, UltraCap LPS-1.2, and ISO REGEN.

[skatbelt]

2 hours ago, Superdad said:

No, the only link between UpTone and AfterDark is that AfterDark is a dealer for UpTone in Hong Kong/China region. And not even exclusive dealer there--we have two others as well.

AfterDark is creating their own products and they enjoy promoting them for use with the hugely successful EtherREGEN.  They also enjoy selling our JS-2, UltraCap LPS-1.2, and ISO REGEN.

 

Alex, seriously? I think statements like this will make even the greatest Uptone Audio adepts frown. And I count myself among your fan base. I think it is dubious that you let a dealer who has multiple interests do so in a forum where members are mainly looking for reliable information. A dealer who also makes handy use of your reputation in his sales techniques and almost sells a kind of feeling of 'Uptone-certified' for his clock products.

 

I would appreciate if you answered my earlier question: have you actually experienced yourself that an external clock delivers significant improvements? If so, which types did you experiment with?

[Mops911]

7 minutes ago, skatbelt said:

greatest Uptone Audio adepts frown

I have no stake so far as I dont own anything Uptone (at this point, but likely will buy something soon)

 

I think it is a very fine line for Alex here and to live a good partnership with his dealers.

 

This is a sponsored forum and Alex is VERY forthcoming and transparent. So -as I can read (dont want to be offensive haha) - I cant see anything wrong what he said or did not.

 

But its your money. The wonderful part of our market capitalism is that you can take your money somewhere else ;-)

[Superdad]

5 hours ago, skatbelt said:

Alex, seriously? I think statements like this will make even the greatest Uptone Audio adepts frown. And I count myself among your fan base. I think it is dubious that you let a dealer who has multiple interests do so in a forum where members are mainly looking for reliable information. A dealer who also makes handy use of your reputation in his sales techniques and almost sells a kind of feeling of 'Uptone-certified' for his clock products.

 

Wow!

Other than AfterDark's posts in this thread today, I have, both publicly and privately asked Adrian not to promote his wares in the UpTone sponsored forum area. (And I have a couple of times deleted AfterDark posts that I felt crossed a line.) In fact, my stance about this early on is what lead him to sponsor their own forum here at AS.  And when you look in there you will find threads about his products--none of which we have anything to do with nor were we consulted on about development--as used with other brands such as Mutec, Cybershaft, dCS, etc.

I really do not think I can be more clear about the separateness of our firms. Not sure what is so "dubious" about it.  But trust me, I watch carefully and will always be careful about the actions of others (be they AfterDark or some other forum member) which might somehow misrepresent our intentions or impact our reputation for integrity.

 

 

Quote

I would appreciate if you answered my earlier question: have you actually experienced yourself that an external clock delivers significant improvements? If so, which types did you experiment with?

 

Not sure why this is important to you. Plenty of people have been enjoying and reporting about many different brands of external reference clocks with EtherREGEN. I have said several times that neither an external reference clock nor a upgraded power supply are required to enjoy 90%+ of the benefits of the EtherREGEN--but that we have no objection to users squeezing a few last performance percentage points by doing so.

 

As for myself personally, I work 7 days a week at this business, including at least 5-6 hours per day in e-mail. My office is in my listening studio, and at the end of the day I want to get away from my desk chair and computer (killing my back), so I have not made any time for listening tests in about 9 months. Sadly, I have barely listened to much music in that time.  This will change in the coming months as I spend time testing our new products. 

So the short answer is, no, I have not personally attached any clock to my EtherREGEN.  But full disclosure, AfterDark did gift UpTone both an entry-level Cybershaft unit and a Project Geissmann Prince. They are both unattached and idle at this time.

[Mops911]

10 minutes ago, Superdad said:

enjoy 90%+

@Superdad@JohnSwenson

 

I enjoyed this thread tremendously and learned a lot. I really appreciate the transparency. Thank you!!

 

And? In the end? Like always.

Trust the vendor and dont fiddle with the product ;-)....if you buy from a good vendor, he did already the utmost to produce good value. If easy enhancements would be possible, they would come out of the box. eR is 90%+ outofthebox and extreme good value as much as I can read here. Why doubling the cost for less than 10% gain.

 

Or let me say it the other way, I crawl now out of this rabbit hole and enjoy a beautiful evening with a excellent local bear here in NewMexico

 

cheers

Tom

 

[nichino]

50 minutes ago, Mops911 said:

@Superdad@JohnSwenson

 

I enjoyed this thread tremendously and learned a lot. I really appreciate the transparency. Thank you!!

 

And? In the end? Like always.

Trust the vendor and dont fiddle with the product ;-)....if you buy from a good vendor, he did already the utmost to produce good value. If easy enhancements would be possible, they would come out of the box. eR is 90%+ outofthebox and extreme good value as much as I can read here. Why doubling the cost for less than 10% gain.

 

Or let me say it the other way, I crawl now out of this rabbit hole and enjoy a beautiful evening with a excellent local bear here in NewMexico

 

cheers

Tom

 

I hope you meant beer 🍺 and not bear 🐻 haha

 

Jokes aside, totally agree with what you said! Sometimes in the hunt for audio nirvana we lose sight of the forest for the trees 

[mitch751]

10 hours ago, Rsbrsvp said:

I have a Ref 10 SE-120 and it definitely improves sound.  I agree that the PS is more important.

 

I must admit that the improvement when using my Mutec OXCO only on the etherregen is not huge; call it more than subtle, but not much more than that.

 

However my Mutec is also hooked up to my DAC, DDC, SOTM TX-USB ULTRA, and soon a second etherregen.  The only extra expense in hooking up the Mutec to multiple components is an inexpensive BNC digital cable.

 

The combined effect of multiple connections is much more substantial.

 

Forgive me for being so straightforward, but no normal person is going to buy a $4,000 or more OXCO just for an etherregen. Such a person would be crazy.  However- once the connection is made to 4-5 devices within the same system, the worth of the Mutec is increased.  It is hard to define the TOTAL value of the Mutec in %, but the overall result is noticeably fuller sound, much better bass, much more focused sound, much better imaging and more transparent sound.   $4000 is still a lot of money, but if you want the best it costs. 

I totally agree with the above. I bought a Ref 10 and attached with ER / MC3+ also SOtM, to me even with not sensitive hearing can hear the difference. Finally I changed my upgrade plain , instead of purchase ARC Ref 6E pre amp, I go for Ref 10 SE-120 for another listening room. If I can't hear any benefit from Ref 10 to ER, why should I changed the original plain ?

 

 

[ambre]

2 hours ago, mitch751 said:

I totally agree with the above. I bought a Ref 10 and attached with ER / MC3+ also SOtM, to me even with not sensitive hearing can hear the difference. Finally I changed my upgrade plain , instead of purchase ARC Ref 6E pre amp, I go for Ref 10 SE-120 for another listening room. If I can't hear any benefit from Ref 10 to ER, why should I changed the original plain ?

 

 

Did you try a different clock cable? Because the default cable delivered with the Mutec’s is    maybe not that good !?

[LowMidHigh]

1 hour ago, ambre said:

Did you try a different clock cable? Because the default cable delivered with the Mutec’s is    maybe not that good !?

 

Unless Mutec has began enclosing a clock cable recently, both the MC+USB and REF10 don't come with any.

[Rsbrsvp]

By the way, even though the combined effect of attaching the Ref10 SE-120 to multiple components is much more substantial than attaching it to just one component, I still IMHO think it is WAY WAY overpriced relative to the gain.

 

I would place it as the worst investment in my system if I measure cost/benefit ratio.  Again, please do not misunderstand.  It does improve sound moderately IMHO. It is a appreciable but not huge impact when connected to multiple components.  I am only saying that IMHO the increase is to minimal relative to the cost.

 

I have components that made as much of a difference as the REF10 which cost a small % the cost of the mutec..

 

This post may not be popular because there is a need out there by audiophile fanatics to praise everything.  However, I have the right to express my true feelings and I'm getting pretty disgusted with the herd mentality.

 

By the way, IMHO the etherregen with no PS and no OXCO improved the sound of my system more than the REF10 for around 8 times less price.  Yes, my PS and REF10 SE-120 made the etherregen noticeably better (of which the PS is responsible for most of the gain), but etherregen only vs mutec only, cost no object, the etherregen had a larger effect.  In terms of cost/benefit, the etherregen is a giant killer.

 

By the way, I respectfully disagree with uptone that the etherregen without external PS is at 90% of benefit.  I would say perhaps 60%- 70%.  The external PS has a pretty big effect on the etherregen.  The clock, a bit more.  I respect uptones right to express their view of what they hear on the etherregen with and without PS, but my ears are my ears and although the etherregen by itself is a world class product, if you can afford a PS get one.   I just bought a Teddy Pardo PS here in Israel for around $400 and it had a VERY BIG impact on the etherregen IMHO..

 

 

[LowMidHigh]

24 minutes ago, Rsbrsvp said:

By the way, even though the combined effect of attaching the Ref10 SE-120 to multiple components is much more substantial than attaching it to just one component, I still IMHO think it is WAY WAY overpriced relative to the gain.

 

I would place it as the worst investment in my system if I measure cost/benefit ratio.  Again, please do not misunderstand.  It does improve sound moderately IMHO. It is a appreciable but not huge impact when connected to multiple components.  I am only saying that IMHO the increase is to minimal relative to the cost.

 

I have components that made as much of a difference as the REF10 which cost a small % the cost of the mutec..

 

This post may not be popular because there is a need out there by audiophile fanatics to praise everything.  However, I have the right to express my true feelings and I'm getting pretty disgusted with the herd mentality.

 

By the way, IMHO the etherregen with no PS and no OXCO improved the sound of my system more than the REF10 for around 8 times less price.  Yes, my PS and REF10 SE-120 made the etherregen noticeably better (of which the PS is responsible for most of the gain), but etherregen only vs mutec only, cost no object, the etherregen had a larger effect.  In terms of cost/benefit, the etherregen is a giant killer.

 

By the way, I respectfully disagree with uptone that the etherregen without external PS is at 90% of benefit.  I would say perhaps 60%- 70%.  The external PS has a pretty big effect on the etherregen.  The clock, a bit more.  I respect uptones right to express their view of what they hear on the etherregen with and without PS, but my ears are my ears and although the etherregen by itself is a world class product, if you can afford a PS get one.   I just bought a Teddy Pardo PS here in Israel for around $400 and it had a VERY BIG impact on the etherregen IMHO..

 

 

 

Shalom...

 

It's pretty much agreed upon by its adherents that the REF10 is the icing on the cake, and far from representing a great value.

 

Still, it's a viable path for people who wish to squeeze the last drop of performance out of their systems. Assuming your system cost $30,000; that you enjoy it 1.5 hours a day; and that it'll serve you fatefully 10 years--the cost per hour is $5.47. Incorporating a REF10 adds $1.09 to that figure, which is 20%. Does the REF10 boots performance by 20%? Categorically not. Does it increase the listening pleasure? Absolutely. So at this point, each person makes their own evaluation and come to their own decision. 

 

[One and a half]

Noise reduction enhancement (really worth trying)

 

Looking at the Ethernet transmission system again, there's two hops from the router to EtherRegen. Three if you count the B Side to the Lumin U1 Ethernet input. I recall the drama of selecting USB cables and their different flavour in reducing noise, for Ethernet, the distnances and cost don't transalte to a pleasant time. If the SQ can sound good with garden variety 17c / foot CAT5e, then there's a win-win.

In researching noise filtering for Ethernet systems, I came across DX Engineering out of Tallmadge OH. DX Engineering specialise in products for the radio amateur. Like audiophiles, they hear noise coupled from Ethernet cabling, and hear it on their rigs and it's quite an issue. To solve this dilemma, there's an ISO-PLUS filter that's inserted at the source end of the Ethernet cable and at the receiver end.

 

The premise is at the source end, the noise is hammered from propagating further, the other filter reduces any noise that's picked up along the cable's route. Both filters are electrically the same, have two female RJ45, so there's no special orientation required like source or receiver end. There's a 6in Cat7 cable included with each ISO-Plus unit, which is roughly two matchboxes in size. The ISO-Plus will not pass POE or any DC voltages, which is fine for audio use.

 

SQ impact

TBH, I wasn't expecting a big change, but hey, whoah. The effect is similar to using balanced AC, like looking through a clean window. I'd say there's now depth. For example, Diana Krall "The Girl in the other Room" SACD title track. The opening is Diana forward of centre, with the solo electric guitar about 1 foot behind on the left 10 deg arc, never heard this before, didn't have to imagine or strain to visualise, was easy. Acoustic guitar, piano (Jazz type recordings) are so clear, there's that nice resonance from the cabinetry.  Tried a variety of redbook recordings, of no audiophile heritage to speak of really, , Chillout, Downtempo, I couldn't stop listening, the Pandora's box was open.

 

I ordered a 10 pack on April 23, seven days later, they arrived in AU. Price is USD250 for the 10 pack, great bang for buck.

 

Just goes to show, the source and chain are as important as the rest of the chain.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[flkin]

33 minutes ago, One and a half said:

I ordered a 10 pack on April 23, seven days later, they arrived in AU. Price is USD250 for the 10 pack, great bang for buck.

 

Are you going to tell us what happens if you chain them serially since the attenuation is only 20-30db per pair from the website? :-D

 

Gonna get me a few to try! Thanks for the research.

[One and a half]

Just now, flkin said:

 

Are you going to tell us what happens if you chain them serially since the attenuation is only 20-30db per pair from the website? :-D

 

Gonna get me a few to try! Thanks for the research.

Well.....they work in pairs, so the one cable could have four...? Haha!

 

I would like to know what the attenuation is below the 16m band, in the areas where SMPS is active. The Router is proof positive of SMPS noise and a noisy RF device, and the filter had a good crack at taming. Above 30MHz, conducted noise isn't a problem, more RF injection. For radio transmitters this is critical to stop interference, unless you live next door to a DX'r, RF injection isn't going to cause a drama for audio use, provided grounds are good and connectors are OK.

 

So rather than spending on special switches which are mostly glorified bog standard designs with a linear power supply and crappy clocks, trap the noise at the source and control it, has advantages.

[sgb]

10 hours ago, Superdad said:

Not sure why this is important to you. Plenty of people have been enjoying and reporting about many different brands of external reference clocks with EtherREGEN. I have said several times that neither an external reference clock nor a upgraded power supply are required to enjoy 90%+ of the benefits of the EtherREGEN--but that we have no objection to users squeezing a few last performance percentage points by doing so.

 

So the short answer is, no, I have not personally attached any clock to my EtherREGEN.  But full disclosure, AfterDark did gift UpTone both an entry-level Cybershaft unit and a Project Geissmann Prince. They are both unattached and idle at this time.

I have an external powersupply (Farad Super 3) and an external clock ( AFTERDARK. PROJECT CLAYX GIESEMANN OCXO 10MHZ REFERENCE MASTER CLOCK) for my EtherREGEN. I don't agree with your estimation that the external clock and the LPS only benefits 10%.

My estimation is rather 30% benefits with my external clock and LPS. This is from someone who has listened with an external clock and LPS with my EtherREGEN.

[Rsbrsvp]

CONCLUSION ACCORDING TO THE MAJORITY OF US  (I think; based on what I have seen in numerous threads by  numerous participants)

 

1. The etherregen is a world-class product BY ITSELF.  Cost/benefit ratio is fantastic!!!  We thank Upton for their invention....

2.  It nevertheless benefits A LOT from external PS and to differing degrees from an external OXCO. (we don't necessarily agree with uptone on this issue, but we love them anyway).

 

ONWARDS!!!!!!!