The EtherREGEN thread for various network, cable, power experiences and experiments

[Superdad]

Epic post John! 

I think what you wrote is so important that I felt compelled to use my forum moderator privileges to boldface and enlarge the font size of the whole darn thing. 

 

Have a great weekend everyone,

--Alex C.

[LowMidHigh]

23 minutes ago, JohnSwenson said:

This is the wrong approach to scientific analysis of dielectrics. The DC resistance is not the issue, it is the AC properties that matter, there are a couple different AC parameters. Getting these to low values seems to improve things. Exactly what properties matter the most and what are the "good" ranges for those properties, I have no clue.

 

This all relates to what I mentioned in the post years ago now, it's NOT actually about DC, it is all about the fact the digital devices have highly variable current loads and that varying current can have very fast rise and fall times. This produces significant magnetic and electrical fields around the wire. If there is interaction between the fields from the + and - conductors this can increase the effective impedance of the cable slowing down the rate of change the cable can deliver current.

 

The geometric arrangement of the wires are primarily working on the magnetic fields and the dielectric is primarily working on the electric fields. The insulation around the wire (the dielectric) interacts with the electric fields produced by the current changes, essentially preventing the current from changing as fast. The the lower the value of these parameters the less interaction with the electric fields produced by the current in the conductors.

 

Teflon has quite low values for these properties, this is what is important, not the bulk resistivity or any mechanical properties.

 

There is also a property of Teflon which almost nobody talks about, the glass transition temperature is 27C (81F), this is where significant structural changes happen which significantly change the electrical properties. Unfortunately this is right in "normal" human environment range. Thus cables, parts connectors etc which use Teflon may find their electrical properties changing significantly depending how warm or cold you keep your house, whether sun is shining in the window etc. 

 

Other plastics with good properties have either much lower or much higher transitions which at least keep them constant.

 

John S.

 

Always a joy...

 

Are you able to shad some insight on the Cellular PE Insulation used by Gotham CAG-4?

[One and a half]

24 minutes ago, JohnSwenson said:

There is also a property of Teflon which almost nobody talks about, the glass transition temperature is 27C (81F), this is where significant structural changes happen which significantly change the electrical properties. Unfortunately this is right in "normal" human environment range. Thus cables, parts connectors etc which use Teflon may find their electrical properties changing significantly depending how warm or cold you keep your house, whether sun is shining in the window etc. 

 

Other plastics with good properties have either much lower or much higher transitions which at least keep them constant.

 

John S.

 

 

 

Thanks John, had to look up glass transition temperature, and once gain, Wikipedia article states the Tg for PTFE is some 115C.  I don't store my teflon/PTFE cables in a fridge, and use them with a variety of temperatures without becoming sticky. Is Teflon not a PTFE or the other way around?

[Superdad]

3 hours ago, One and a half said:

OOOOO, nice ! Is it cheaper than one of these?

 

 

That's a very nice wire stripper Gary. I was not aware of Rennsteig.  Looking at their web page I got to drooling over their powered crimping machine, but being German I expect I'd faint at the price:

This Chinese strip & crimp unit (for about $3,500) is what I will likely be buying later this year:

https://www.ew-wirestripping.com/en_cp_view.asp?ID=133&ClassID=3&ClassBID=50#

 

[MasterWarzombie]

6 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

This is the wrong approach to scientific analysis of dielectrics. The DC resistance is not the issue, it is the AC properties that matter, there are a couple different AC parameters. Getting these to low values seems to improve things. Exactly what properties matter the most and what are the "good" ranges for those properties, I have no clue.

 

This all relates to what I mentioned in the post years ago now, it's NOT actually about DC, it is all about the fact the digital devices have highly variable current loads and that varying current can have very fast rise and fall times. This produces significant magnetic and electrical fields around the wire. If there is interaction between the fields from the + and - conductors this can increase the effective impedance of the cable slowing down the rate of change the cable can deliver current.

 

The geometric arrangement of the wires are primarily working on the magnetic fields and the dielectric is primarily working on the electric fields. The insulation around the wire (the dielectric) interacts with the electric fields produced by the current changes, essentially preventing the current from changing as fast. The the lower the value of these parameters the less interaction with the electric fields produced by the current in the conductors.

 

Teflon has quite low values for these properties, this is what is important, not the bulk resistivity or any mechanical properties.

 

There is also a property of Teflon which almost nobody talks about, the glass transition temperature is 27C (81F), this is where significant structural changes happen which significantly change the electrical properties. Unfortunately this is right in "normal" human environment range. Thus cables, parts connectors etc which use Teflon may find their electrical properties changing significantly depending how warm or cold you keep your house, whether sun is shining in the window etc. 

 

Other plastics with good properties have either much lower or much higher transitions which at least keep them constant.

 

John S.

very informative.

However, as you are positioned precisely naming the Mini circuit filter for clocks.

the basic consumer that I am wants to know which DC cable you specifically recommend. (the model, a link, I don't know what),
The DC Power Supply Cables from Ghenaudio are stamped JSSG360 are just recommendable (Gotham for example) or there are other choices to be made (Audio Sensibility?)

it will be nice because it will facilitate our research and possible financial losses to find the ideal product.

Thanks John

[LowMidHigh]

28 minutes ago, MasterWarzombie said:

very informative.

However, as you are positioned precisely naming the Mini circuit filter for clocks.

the basic consumer that I am wants to know which DC cable you specifically recommend. (the model, a link, I don't know what),
The DC Power Supply Cables from Ghenaudio are stamped JSSG360 are just recommendable (Gotham for example) or there are other choices to be made (Audio Sensibility?)

it will be nice because it will facilitate our research and possible financial losses to find the ideal product.

Thanks John

 

Going strictly by John, it’s either the Gotham GAC-4/1 or the Canare 4S6/8, all three architectured around starquad with a sufficiently large gauge (20, 20 and 16 respectively).

 

Alex, however, has augmented out knowledge with sort of dielectric the insolation carries, and in that regard, the Gotham is superior to the Canare with its cellular PE.

[MasterWarzombie]

I asked Ghenaudio this week about the direction of the cables if we buy a DC 2.5 to 2.1 cable. On the site, it is not specified of direction although on the cable there is a direction of the writing. For me it is the direction of the cable.

Ghenaudio told me that there was no sense ... except for the audioquest nrg 1.5 where it is clearly indicated.

I received a 2.5 to 2.5 cable so no worries, I followed the direction of the writing.

[PYP]

I'm currently trying this cable from Ghent to connect the LPS 1.2 and eR:  DC-GAC4 Gotham GAC-4/1 11301 UltraPro Star Quad DC(JSSG360) Cable.

 

Obviously well made and the correct length (in part because I measured the distance needed).    So, that is two out of two.

 

Unfortunately, because I hooked it up before the second eR was completely settled in (sounded great, so thought burn in was finished), I can't isolate its contribution to the overall sound that continues to develop.  When first connected, I did hear more bass and clearer bass and then the sound changed.  As the cable settles in, there have been occasions when the music is bit reserved, but that quality can be the eR breaking in too (as observed with the first eR).  

 

I think it is fair to say, however, that it is making a contribution to the density/solidity of the music.  Last night, an electric bass was not so much prominent as it was very, very solid (only way I can put it).  Frankly, it was awesome.  

 

Perhaps other folks who didn't add two variables at once can let us know if some of these observations line up with their experience.  

 

[jamesg11]

/& then on to the rest of the dc powered items ...?

I’ve got a large handful, dac etc, if this is definitely the way to go.

[GryphonGuy]

On 4/1/2021 at 7:45 PM, GryphonGuy said:

 

Hi Duckworp,

 

Future-proofing and minimising signal loss is the reason for the OM4/5. Mind you 30 metres is paranoia level at signal loss but, hey, numbers are numbers. 😆 OM5 is actually worse than OM4 for distance at the slower speeds of the EtherRegen requirements but I could not tell the difference in sound quality of the OM4 vs OM5.

 

The reason I went with Multi-mode cable in the first instance was again on a recommendation from the FibreStore. Given that the price of 2x30 metres single-mode cable is trivial even by Malaysian standards, I will order two to see if it makes any difference as the transceivers I use are both multi-mode and Single-mode transceivers and also use the single-mode wavelength of 1310nm.

 

So yet another round of tests. What else is there to do during lock-down anyway? 😀

 

Regards

GG

 

Well I have installed the single-mode fibre into the EtherREGENs maintaining the combined 1310nm multi-single-mode transceivers and whilst the mids and highs seemed to be a tad "cleaner", the bass almost disappeared and worse, the soundstage collapsed depth-wise. I let them play for a couple of albums but the lack of bass and sound stage depth was really annoying. So switching back to the 1310 nm multi-mode fibre (OM4) and the bass and depth returned instantly (not subtle!) and the mids and highs seemed to blend back into the mix.

 

Now I realise that some of you will say that my result is because the dual-mode transceivers are simply better at Multi-mode than single-mode so I have ordered some single-mode-only transceivers and will repeat the test with the same single-mode fibre but exclusively single-mode transceivers and see if there is any difference. I'll report back in about another week or so.

 

Regards

GG

[Duckworp]

On 4/20/2021 at 2:20 AM, GryphonGuy said:

 

Well I have installed the single-mode fibre into the EtherREGENs maintaining the combined 1310nm multi-single-mode transceivers and whilst the mids and highs seemed to be a tad "cleaner", the bass almost disappeared and worse, the soundstage collapsed depth-wise. I let them play for a couple of albums but the lack of bass and sound stage depth was really annoying. So switching back to the 1310 nm multi-mode fibre (OM4) and the bass and depth returned instantly (not subtle!) and the mids and highs seemed to blend back into the mix.

 

Now I realise that some of you will say that my result is because the dual-mode transceivers are simply better at Multi-mode than single-mode so I have ordered some single-mode-only transceivers and will repeat the test with the same single-mode fibre but exclusively single-mode transceivers and see if there is any difference. I'll report back in about another week or so.

 

Regards

GG

I will be interested in your results.  I just switched from FS MM (OM1 and OM4, I could tell no difference between the two) to FS 1310 SM OS2 duplex and found an improvement - a little more depth to the sound.  These FS SFP transceivers are such good value at £6, I wonder if the £100 Versitron or Finisar modules sound any different?
 

I was pleased to recently find a Cisco 2960 C series switch - these have two optical outlets so it is possible to run optical to both my ERs direct.  Optical modules and cable are so cheap, and there are no audiophile cables to worry about, moving to optical must be the best value upgrade around.  

[One and a half]

EtherRegen listening evaluations day 34 (816 hours burn in).

 

The listening experience hasn't changed that much since the initial day 10 of burn in, so to be safe, allow 2 weeks of continuous use with data on say a server or other 24/7 networked device, yes, NAS will be a good load.

 

At Day 34, the ER is on demand power up. Takes about 20-30 minutes or so to reach that 40 odd C case temperature if an ambient of 25C. That amount of time is roughly the same as the other gear. I did notice that when changing the main Ethernet Feed from the switch (where everything else is plugged into) to the router with CAT6 STP, the loss of definition was very noticeable, the treble suffered with some distortion. Replaced the STP (10m) with a custom length 3.2m Cat5e UTP direct from the router to the Music-Server, and the original 1m STP B side to Lumin U1 input to a 0.6m UTP fixed that distortion, and returned the treble control to a much more pleasant experience. 

 

I admit, I didn't pay much attention to the grounding, since the router has SMPS and is inherently noisy anyway, gets a very messy with using that grounded power supply at the router and bonding it with the Music-Server ground... headache, I don't need.

 

@Superdad, the EtherRegen is a keeper, won't be returning. 

 

 

[Superdad]

32 minutes ago, One and a half said:

the EtherRegen is a keeper, won't be returning. 

 

Hey, that's great Gary!  Glad to know you are enjoying it in your music system.

Be well my friend,

--Alex C.

 

P.S. For those noting that Gary went a bit past our 30-day eval. period...Yes, I did extend his trial period a bit because: a) he was doing a number of interesting experiments; b) I know him to be someone who needs a lot of time to fully assess a component.

[Rsbrsvp]

I have a technical question on how and when the etherregen effects sonics.

 

When I stream music from Amazon or Qobuz, it is clear before my eyes that the music is not streaming directly to my ears. When I play a song,  the music is being placed in the RAM of my computer and then being played from there.  I see the song loading into my RAM with the visual line in my Amazon or Audrivana player.  So first question is why would the quality of streaming or a switch make a difference if anyway the music is playing direct from my computers RAM?  I assume the quality of the music being loaded into the RAM is better when using a switch, better power supply, etc.  Please confirm.

 

Now, both Amazon and Qobuz allow me to download their streaming music onto my hard SSD in my fanless PC.  To my ears, this always sounds better.  The sound is fuller, crisper, just noticeably better.  Of course, once downloaded I do not need any internet connection at all as the music is playing off my hard drive and I'm pretty sure once again it is going into RAM beforehand. 

 

By the way, even playing lower quality Apple AAC256 music off my iPad- when streamed vs downloading the music to the HD of the iPad and then playing from the HD of the iPad,- the download sounds noticeably better than the direct stream.

 

Two questions.

 

1.  Why is playing downloaded music from Amazon and Qobuz sounding noticeably better than streaming?  Perhaps it is not better, but just different and my ears prefer the downloaded signature.  But even then, I ask, why is it clearly so different?

 

2.  Is my ethernet connection and etherregen effecting the quality of that download file as well or does it have no effect on it?

 

I would appreciate a simple and as non-technical explanation as possible.  I would love an explanation from the Uptone gang...

[Nikko1960]

1 hour ago, Rsbrsvp said:

 

Two questions.

 

1.  Why is playing downloaded music from Amazon and Qobuz sounding noticeably better than streaming?  Perhaps it is not better, but just different and my ears prefer the downloaded signature.  But even then, I ask, why is it clearly so different?

 

2.  Is my ethernet connection and etherregen effecting the quality of that download file as well or does it have no effect on it?

 

I would appreciate a simple and as non-technical explanation as possible.  I would love an explanation from the Uptone gang...

 

Have you read this?

 

 

I have one and it works really well to improve my system.  But you should budget more to buy an external clock and LPSU from Adrian at AfterDark (see their forum here).  It takes performance to a whole new level.  If you have the money, go for the Emperor model.  I went for the Queen EtherRegen bundle but now wish I had bought the more expensive model.

 

Nikko

 

 

[Rsbrsvp]

I have a mutec Ref10 SE-120 connected to my Etherregen and a superb Power supply.  It does help a lot.

 

Still, playing downloaded music from my SSD is better than streaming direct.

 

Why?  And is that download quality being effected by the switch, PS, and Mutec clock?

[Rsbrsvp]

I did not see in this article the idea of SSD downloaded music vs direct streaming.  The author did mention he uses a NAS so that the music passes the etherregen but I'm not sure that music downloaded to my SSD also did not get effected when I did the download as the stream passed the etherregen at the point of download before being stored on my SSD..

[TwinPeak]

2 hours ago, Rsbrsvp said:

I have a technical question on how and when the etherregen effects sonics.

 

When I stream music from Amazon or Qobuz, it is clear before my eyes that the music is not streaming directly to my ears. When I play a song,  the music is being placed in the RAM of my computer and then being played from there.  I see the song loading into my RAM with the visual line in my Amazon or Audrivana player.  So first question is why would the quality of streaming or a switch make a difference if anyway the music is playing direct from my computers RAM?  I assume the quality of the music being loaded into the RAM is better when using a switch, better power supply, etc.  Please confirm.

 

Now, both Amazon and Qobuz allow me to download their streaming music onto my hard SSD in my fanless PC.  To my ears, this always sounds better.  The sound is fuller, crisper, just noticeably better.  Of course, once downloaded I do not need any internet connection at all as the music is playing off my hard drive and I'm pretty sure once again it is going into RAM beforehand. 

 

Two questions.

 

1.  Why is playing downloaded music from Amazon and Qobuz sounding noticeably better than streaming?

 

2.  Is my ethernet connection and etherregen effecting the quality of that download file as well or does it have no effect on it?

 

I would appreciate a simple and as non-technical explanation as possible.  I would love an explanation from the Uptone gang...

Hi,- interesting questions!
My comments below does not answer your questions, but I also wondered about the functions of RAM-buffer in early stages of my digital/audio experiments. Before I acquired the EtherREGEN, my Mac Mini was end player before DAC. On the Mini I created a RAM-disk and copied some audio tracks into it. In Audirvana I made a new music library pointing at the RAM-disk. Back then, playing directly from RAM-disk sounded much better compared to playing from a hard drive library (SSD).
Later I got Mac Mini upgraded with the Uptone MMK, I also acquired the Uptone JS-2 and a Sonore UltraRendu - redefining the Mini's role and placement in the system. With Mini and NAS-disk powered by JS-2, and with uR as end player - repeating the RAM-disk experiment, showed very little difference in sound quality. And with eR in front of uR, the advantage of RAM-disk replay was reduced to zero.

My theory is that the shorter pathway (RAM-buffer) holding the source and send to computer output stage, and further to end player may elevate sound quality - and whatever is engaged in the path after RAM-buffer (power supplies, internal circuits etc) is taken care of by EtherREGEN. I do not use web-streaming, but the music files from web/local streaming always end up into the player software's RAM-buffer, before it is send through EtherREGEN, end player and into the DAC. In computers the RAM is a kind of "extension" of the processor, so calculations involved with reading, upsampling and replay has a very short path to the output chip.
It's just a theory - therefore I might be wrong 🤔

[Johnnydev]

2 hours ago, Rsbrsvp said:

I have a mutec Ref10 SE-120 connected to my Etherregen and a superb Power supply.  It does help a lot.

 

Still, playing downloaded music from my SSD is better than streaming direct.

 

Why?  And is that download quality being effected by the switch, PS, and Mutec clock?

If downloaded music sounds less, I think the tip is: check all connections to and from modem / router etc.
Provide the modem / router with an LPS.
Use good ethernet cables and avoid ground loops throughout your system.

[Rsbrsvp]

I really want the Uptone experts to chime in on this.....

 

Anyone on this forum can do a simple experiment just to get started.   Download a song from your streaming service to your PC, or iPad to your Hard drive and listen.  Then remove the download and listen to it streamed directly to your computer.  Sounds very different.

 

Question- is what is going on to cause this?

[MarkusBarkus]

...I think many of us have concluded: we're not exactly sure about causes of some of the upstream effects. Multiple switch chains, streaming versus local, playing from buffer with network disconnected. Sometimes it matters and sometimes listeners state a preference. Root cause? 

[R1200CL]

@Rsbrsvp

Your case is well known in some setups. 
I suggest you post your question in the Novel tread. 
You can also search  for my tread the magic of buffers and ask Plisken there as an example. 

[Clockmeister]

I shall watch this thread with interest

[Iving]

1 hour ago, Clockmeister said:

I shall watch this thread with interest

Well - just to mention that you can have your cake and eat it (FBA + EtherRegen advantage) ...

[Clockmeister]

I am the odd one out, not requiring any RJ45 connections or sata cables to play music via FBA, however the ether regen for the outlay does make a positive different to a great deal of digital playback systems.

 

One comment I will suggest that most systems are overly complicated and use a lot of sticking plasters, however the most important aspect is simple DO you like what it does, if so then music would your next purchase.