The EtherREGEN thread for various network, cable, power experiences and experiments

[Mouna]

4 hours ago, soares said:

https://audiosensibility.com/blog/products-2/power-cables-2/#!/Signature-Silver-DC-Cable/p/102469015/category=2595837
Here it is!

Cheers, 

Jorge

Thank you very much, Jorge

Cheers

[soares]

1 hour ago, MasterWarzombie said:

I have two copper cables at Audiosensibility connecting my JS2 UPtone with my clock and my Sotm switch. The Bleden cables supplied with the JS2 are too long .... yet very qualitative.

Is the Silver version brightness which I don't want? it is to possibly connect my Sotm streamer

Not sure what is your question. If they sound bright the answer is no. 

[pietka08]

Hi 
I am facing the choice of a DC cable that connects the LPS-1.2 to the EtherRegen. Please suggest which one?
https://www.ghentaudio.com/part/dc-gac4.html
https://audiosensibility.com/blog/products-2/power-cables-2/#!/Signature-Silver-DC-Cable/p/102469015/category=2595837
and now I read about Audiosibility copper cables.
My head hurts:)
 

[LowMidHigh]

9 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Well, you can start with this post:

And continue with this search. 
https://audiophilestyle.com/search/?&q=Quad&author=JohnSwenson&search_and_or=and&sortby=relevancy

 

You can also study the theory behind JSSG360 (or just JSSG). Basically it’s a Faraday Cage on a cable. 
Makes a lot of sense to me.

 

Uptone has some unique DC cables as they can use lower AWG, since Alex has access to special version og Oyade DC plugs. Only available for JS-2 customers. 

 

 

Thank you for directing me to a working theory. I appreciate sparing me the research.

 

According to John, only resistance matters and star quad cables are the best approach. Of course, whether a difference can be detected should still be  put to the test. The cables can be measured, but let’s assume you only trust your ears. To test them, you have to put together two identical systems, sans the DC cable, both sharing the same speakers, that you can switch between with a flick of a knob. Only then can one run a reliable A/B or A/Bx. 

 

Otherwise, accepting anecdotal claims is as irresponsible as it foolish. To swap a DC cable and reboot the associated device takes far too long for one to trust their short-term aural memory, especially if the difference is subtle. Do people here assert their high-end DC cable is a day-and-night compared to the stock one? That short-term aural memory plays not part? Perhaps so, but it goes against common sense.

 

I’d like to point out how some people here don’t work off John’s hypothesis, but rather go with the hype. Take Audio Sensibility. It’s not star quad, and thus not the best cable money can buy, yet some people drool over it. No reliable A/B, not measurements, not in-line with the working theory, and yet…

  

 

12 hours ago, MartinT said:

 

Anecdotally, if you truly think a good DC cable doesn't make a difference over the cheap ones supplied, then either your system lacks resolution or you're not listening very carefully.

 

They do make a difference.  Try listening to one against the other.

 

my system is comprise of high-end monitors used by professionals in music production. 

 

9 hours ago, Savolax said:

Quoted for "truth". In the beginning of my PC-audio craziness when I "only" had JCAT USB Card on a basic PC, later on powered with UpTone LPS-1.2.

As astoundingly substantial effect LPS-1.2 had on sound quality powering the JCAT USB card I was almost as astoundingly surprised what Canare 4S8 did when replacing it with stock LPS-1.2 cable. 

Recently I introduced Audio Sensibility Signature Silver DC cables replacing Farad Level 2 cable (from Farad3 to Singxer SU-1 sCLK-EX modified) and the one powering EtherRegen also, which was Ghent Neotech UPOCC cable. 

As layman, I have no idea why DC cable would make difference but on every DC cable "upgrade" I have done as another anecdotal evidence it just stuns me of the impact when the cable has been properly "burnt-in". Yes, that would be another "ridiculous anecdotal statement", but if trying some new cable on a system, please give it time few days before critical listening.

 

Usually one could add YMMV on such posts but then again, if one were to add, say JCAT USB Card on his/her PC and power with LPS-1.2, and not hearing any difference on DC cables I would wonder why one is here on the forum in the first place, respectfully. I find the difference so obvious on them.

And this is coming from a guy that had enjoyed LPS-1.2 with its stock DC cable intially and found it amazing, but it just keeps getting better... 😈

 

So if one can’t hear the difference, one shouldn’t be on this site? There’s a lot to learn here, but also a prodigious amount of drivel—which is all the more the reason to ask question and to profess healthy doubt.  

 

[LowMidHigh]

21 hours ago, MasterWarzombie said:

https://www.ghentaudio.com/part/dc-gac4.html

 

https://www.ghentaudio.com/part/dc-7n16c.html

 

Why do you prefer the GAC-4/1 over the Canare 4S6?

 

The Canare has larger gauge (20 vs 24). I can’t compare between the resistance of the two, as the Gotham’s figure is at 90 ohm (24.4) whereas the Canare is at 100 ohm (17), but if I interpret those numbers correctly, the Canare has lower resistance. 

 

https://gothamcables.com/en/gothamcables/starquad/11001gac41

http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDisplay.aspx?productItemID=63

 

 

[James Stephens]

13 minutes ago, LowMidHigh said:

 

Why do you prefer the GAC-4/1 over the Canare 4S6?

 

The Canare has larger gauge (20 vs 24). I can’t compare between the resistance of the two, as the Gotham’s figure is at 90 ohm (24.4) whereas the Canare is at 100 ohm (17), but if I interpret those numbers correctly, the Canare has lower resistance. 

 

https://gothamcables.com/en/gothamcables/starquad/11001gac41

http://www.canare.com/ProductItemDisplay.aspx?productItemID=63

 

 

Hi there, Ghent carries the GAC-4/1 UltraPro Cable which has a lower resistance then the regular GAC-4/1 by factor of 2 .. 

 

https://www.ghentaudio.com/part/dc-gac4.html

 

https://gothamcables.com/en/gothamcables/starquad/11301gac41ultrapro

 

Best,

James

[Rsbrsvp]

For people who have two etherregens and OM, which makes a bigger difference, second etherregen or OM or about the same?

[LowMidHigh]

1 hour ago, James Stephens said:

Hi there, Ghent carries the GAC-4/1 UltraPro Cable which has a lower resistance then the regular GAC-4/1 by factor of 2 .. 

 

https://www.ghentaudio.com/part/dc-gac4.html

 

https://gothamcables.com/en/gothamcables/starquad/11301gac41ultrapro

 

Best,

James

 

I'd like to offer a retraction. According to John low inductance takes priority in DC cables, and a high gauge starquad is best approach to achieve that. Incidently., the architecture is more important than the conductor's gauge. 

 

"So what DOES really matter? The wire gauge determines the resistance and the geometry of the wires (how they are arranged in the cable) makes a HUGE difference in the inductance. So things to optimize for, thick wires and use the proper geometry. The geometry is actually far more important than the wire gauge, although you don't want to go with really thin wires either."

 

Going by that yardstick, those are the best options Ghent has in stock:
 

Canare 4S8 (16 awg) 

Canare 4S6 (20 awg)

Gotham GAC 4/1 UltraPro (24 awg)

[PYP]

53 minutes ago, Rsbrsvp said:

For people who have two etherregens and OM, which makes a bigger difference, second etherregen or OM or about the same?

 

On 4/13/2021 at 7:34 AM, PYP said:

There should be no shortage of opinions here so I offer the following.  

 

I have a similar setup that combines those two:  CAT8>oM LPS>fiber>eR SMPS>cat8>eR LPS1.2>CAT7>DAC.

When I added the oM to the first eR in my system, the change was very good in that it helped solve a slight HF problem (didn't sound as natural as I like).  Then I added a second eR and that was a large change, much larger than adding the oM, but in the context of having already added the oM.  

 

With this experience, I would give priority to a second eR over an oM if I had to choose one, BUT I can't definitively say that without running an experiment that I'm unwilling to do and stating that every system is different, playing in different rooms and to different ears.  And, of course, the budget is different for the two options.  

 

[PYP]

47 minutes ago, LowMidHigh said:

 

I'd like to offer a retraction. According to John low inductance takes priority in DC cables, and a high gauge starquad is best approach to achieve that. Incidently., the architecture is more important than the conductor's gauge. 

 

"So what DOES really matter? The wire gauge determines the resistance and the geometry of the wires (how they are arranged in the cable) makes a HUGE difference in the inductance. So things to optimize for, thick wires and use the proper geometry. The geometry is actually far more important than the wire gauge, although you don't want to go with really thin wires either."

 

 

One could consider this to be general guidance, but wouldn't you want to make the comparison in your own system?    Since this is such a subjective hobby, I haven't seen agreement on "best" across a broad group.  Systems, rooms, listening distance and one's own hearing play into preferences.    

[Superdad]

35 minutes ago, LowMidHigh said:

The geometry is actually far more important than the wire gauge, although you don't want to go with really thin wires either.

What also needs to be pointed out, is that aside from the inductance-lowering property of star-quad topology, the quality of the dielectric matters a good deal.  Air is best, foamed (“cellular”) Teflon comes next, then regular Teflon, and then all the cheaper stuff.

The Gotham cable uses cellular PE, and that’s really great. And while it has lots of fancy shielding, shielding of DC cables is really not important.  It’s that high performance dielectric that sets that particular star-quad cable apart.

 

For DIYers, a terrific line of wire to make DC cables with are the star-quad with foamed fluoropolymer dielectric that VH Audio offers by the foot: https://www.vhaudio.com/wire.html. That page has an embarrassing selection of VERY good wire!

[MasterWarzombie]

10 minutes ago, Superdad said:

What also needs to be pointed out, is that aside from the inductance-lowering property of star-quad topology, the quality of the dielectric matters a good deal.  Air is best, foamed (“cellular”) Teflon comes next, then regular Teflon, and then all the cheaper stuff.

The Gotham cable uses cellular PE, and that’s really great. And while it has lots of fancy shielding, shielding of DC cables is really not important.  It’s that high performance dielectric that sets that particular star-quad cable apart.

 

For DIYers, a terrific line of wire to make DC cables with are the star-quad with foamed fluoropolymer dielectric that VH Audio offers by the foot: https://www.vhaudio.com/wire.html. That page has an embarrassing selection of VERY good wire!

And for the USB cables for your future Uptone USB filter ....😋

[LowMidHigh]

16 minutes ago, Superdad said:

What also needs to be pointed out, is that aside from the inductance-lowering property of star-quad topology, the quality of the dielectric matters a good deal.  Air is best, foamed (“cellular”) Teflon comes next, then regular Teflon, and then all the cheaper stuff.

The Gotham cable uses cellular PE, and that’s really great. And while it has lots of fancy shielding, shielding of DC cables is really not important.  It’s that high performance dielectric that sets that particular star-quad cable apart.

 

For DIYers, a terrific line of wire to make DC cables with are the star-quad with foamed fluoropolymer dielectric that VH Audio offers by the foot: https://www.vhaudio.com/wire.html. That page has an embarrassing selection of VERY good wire!

 

Thanks for shading more light. 

[JohnSwenson]

I'd like to talk about the dialectric issue some more. In my original post I said dielectric didn't matter much. This was wrong dielectric DOES matter quite a bit BUT the high quality dielectrics take a LONG time to burn in. Many of them don't sound particularly good when they are new, but can take over a month to really burn in. My initial tests only did a day worth of burnin, which not nearly long enough to find out what they sound like.

 

I have found that polypropylene and some types of silicone rubber work very well. 

 

One important fact is you need to distinguish between jacket and wire insulation type. The jacket insulation has little to do with it, what matters is the insulation around the wires. A lot of cables just list the jacket type, which is not what matters. So be careful to find out the insulation used around the wires.

 

Whatever you choose, let things burn in for a long time.

 

John S.

[Savolax]

4 hours ago, LowMidHigh said:

 

So if one can’t hear the difference, one shouldn’t be on this site? There’s a lot to learn here, but also a prodigious amount of drivel—which is all the more the reason to ask question and to profess healthy doubt.  

 

Sorry for getting such impression what I said. I managed (again) to express quite vaguely and I see now why you might have take it that way. I sometimes get out of focus when writing, even with my native language and manage to leave out something that I feel obvious in my head - of course not for the reader!

I guess my point with that quote was more of reflecting to kind of ASR-type "objective" point of view. Bits-n-bits, you know. They did not appreciate EtherRegen and I was under impression the bit theory is frequently referenced. "It's just a switch.."

For such types of people ER seems to be some scam, but like we many enthusiasts here know, it's the real deal. But lets not go there deeper.

 

I got feeling your way in the hobby is emphasized towards scientific facts. Nothing wrong with that. And obviously I am not in position to shout ultimatums for forum peers.

I also read Mr. Swensons recommendations before buying any DC power cables. Hence, my first DC cable was Canare 4S8! I am not challenging his experience and knowledge here. I just wanted to express some user experience. 

I am aware the Neotech OCC and Audio Sensibility cables are not star quad. Nonetheless I find both cables yielding to better transparency in my setup than star quad Canare 4S8. So that leads in my head there might be some other factors too with DC cables that matter substantially, soundwise. I think this is one of those crazy things that just needs to be heard

Obviously we know this is just another anecdotal case and you seem to prefer more scientific proof, and that is of course OK! Maybe more of subjectivist enthusiast might appreciate given experience more.

 

I appreciate science but in terms of audio, especially digital domain, I, as a layman, think not everything is measured or scientifically proven yet relative to sound quality. What is better anyway? I think everyone has their own opinion on that matter.

The main motivation for me was curiosity to try out when several reputable users report improvement using specific cables and found peer experience holding truth in my setup. If talking about absolutes, of course there is some chance I am just sheep herding mass psychosis and I'm just bullshitting here 😉

 

If you are hesitating towards DC cable upgrading I was thinking of possibility to send some cables as a loaner to try out yourself and maybe report here your experience. We probably have some distance between us, but usually issues can be solved. Customs might be a crap thing though...

It's just I would rather listen myself than compare specs online and theorize. Of course it's OK to choose based on scientific data too!

 

Hopefully this post shows up in better light.

[LowMidHigh]

12 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

I'd like to talk about the dialectric issue some more. In my original post I said dielectric didn't matter much. This was wrong dielectric DOES matter quite a bit BUT the high quality dielectrics take a LONG time to burn in. Many of them don't sound particularly good when they are new, but can take over a month to really burn in. My initial tests only did a day worth of burnin, which not nearly long enough to find out what they sound like.

 

I have found that polypropylene and some types of silicone rubber work very well. 

 

One important fact is you need to distinguish between jacket and wire insulation type. The jacket insulation has little to do with it, what matters is the insulation around the wires. A lot of cables just list the jacket type, which is not what matters. So be careful to find out the insulation used around the wires.

 

Whatever you choose, let things burn in for a long time.

 

John S.

 

Do you refer to layer 8 (isolation), or Cellular PE Insulation on the image?

 

[LowMidHigh]

BTW, Canare uses polypropylene, which leaves me again confused which of the two should serve better for a DC cord (Canare or Gotham).

 

 

[One and a half]

I really like Teflon (PTFE) since the only wire that can handle that heat when extruded is silver plated copper. SPC doesn't corrode, heck the other day I used some 12 gauge I bought in the 80's and the conductors are as shiny today as they were then. PTFE has dielectric better than air.  For hobbyist, McMaster Carr supplies cut to length per foot, for mains input cable I used this type.  

 

For DC, the same cable could be used for a star quad application. PTFE is not exactly flexible, but it's bendable and a small gauge cable can handle a lot of current. the 18AWG can handle 10A at room temperature, so more than enough for DC rails.

 

The downside to PTFE is it needs special stripping tools, or a very sharp knife will also do, but takes longer.

[Superdad]

11 hours ago, LowMidHigh said:

Do you refer to layer 8 (isolation), or Cellular PE Insulation on the image?

 

Item 8 (insulation) IS the celluar PE of the image.  One and the same.  They just did not carry the numbers from the table listing up to the cable image. 

[Superdad]

11 hours ago, LowMidHigh said:

BTW, Canare uses polypropylene, which leaves me again confused which of the two should serve better for a DC cord (Canare or Gotham).

As shown in the photo you posted, the Canare wire uses polyethylene not polypropylene for insulation.  

The Dk (dielectric constant) of polyethylene (2.4) is not quite as good as polypropylene (2.2), but the newer foamed/celluar polyethylenes have massively better Dk (1.4!) than any of these.

[Superdad]

10 hours ago, One and a half said:

I really like Teflon (PTFE) since the only wire that can handle that heat when extruded is silver plated copper. SPC doesn't corrode, heck the other day I used some 12 gauge I bought in the 80's and the conductors are as shiny today as they were then.

 

I agree with you there Gary!  At Hovland Company (actually in the 1970s and '80s, two decades before we ever incorporated) we were making interconnects with mil-spec Teflon insulated silver-plated copper wires--and settled on star-quad topology for our successful G3 interconnects:

 

10 hours ago, One and a half said:

PTFE has dielectric better than air.

 

Huh?  A vacuum has a Dk of 1.0; Air is something like 1.006; Standard PTFE is 2.1.

 

10 hours ago, One and a half said:

The downside to PTFE is it needs special stripping tools, or a very sharp knife will also do, but takes longer.

 

I switched to heat stripping for Teflon long ago. Almost the only way to avoid accidentally nicking or cutting fine strands. Using this tool:

[cab33]

Does anybody find that your cable supporters alter the dielectric?

[James Stephens]

38 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

A vacuum has a Dk of 1.0; Air is something like 1.006; Standard PTFE is 2.1.

 

 

Snake Oil is 1.001.

 

.... which is why cables made with it sound so good.

[One and a half]

5 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

Huh?  A vacuum has a Dk of 1.0; Air is something like 1.006; Standard PTFE is 2.1.

Duh, was thinking of a table in Wikipedia that compared the electrical resistance properties of different materials. Air has a resistance of 10^9 to 10^15 Ohms, whereas Teflon has 10^23 to 10^25 ohms resistance, so concluded the dielectric would be 'better' . Never mind, Teflon is pretty tough material and for wires just about the ideal. For the voltages experienced in hi-fi systems, Teflon wouldn't allow any breakdown or leaching, dare I say would not require burn in either, cause the capacitance wouldn't change. That can't be said though for Furutech AG power cable, the other day used it to distribute 9V to the EtherRegen and MicroUSB3, the copper braid actually stuck on the insulation and was a bit of an issue to remove the braid to peel it back. That cable was only a couple of years old since I bought it new. I've also read of Monster Cable speaker wire disintegrating just by being stored on the drum.

 

On the same table in Wikipedia, Silver is listed as the lowest resistance material, followed by copper. Wonder what a combo of SPC is? I gave up on looking after reading this article on differing copper properties and which copper would be used for the Teflon cable manufacturing.

 

 

Quote

 

 

I switched to heat stripping for Teflon long ago. Almost the only way to avoid accidentally nicking or cutting fine strands. Using this tool:

OOOOO, nice ! Is it cheaper than one of these?

 

[JohnSwenson]

3 hours ago, One and a half said:

Duh, was thinking of a table in Wikipedia that compared the electrical resistance properties of different materials. Air has a resistance of 10^9 to 10^15 Ohms, whereas Teflon has 10^23 to 10^25 ohms resistance, so concluded the dielectric would be 'better' . Never mind, Teflon is pretty tough material and for wires just about the ideal. For the voltages experienced in hi-fi systems, Teflon wouldn't allow any breakdown or leaching, dare I say would not require burn in either, cause the capacitance wouldn't change. That can't be said though for Furutech AG power cable, the other day used it to distribute 9V to the EtherRegen and MicroUSB3, the copper braid actually stuck on the insulation and was a bit of an issue to remove the braid to peel it back. That cable was only a couple of years old since I bought it new. I've also read of Monster Cable speaker wire disintegrating just by being stored on the drum.

 

On the same table in Wikipedia, Silver is listed as the lowest resistance material, followed by copper. Wonder what a combo of SPC is? I gave up on looking after reading this article on differing copper properties and which copper would be used for the Teflon cable manufacturing.

 

 

OOOOO, nice ! Is it cheaper than one of these?

 

This is the wrong approach to scientific analysis of dielectrics. The DC resistance is not the issue, it is the AC properties that matter, there are a couple different AC parameters. Getting these to low values seems to improve things. Exactly what properties matter the most and what are the "good" ranges for those properties, I have no clue.

 

This all relates to what I mentioned in the post years ago now, it's NOT actually about DC, it is all about the fact the digital devices have highly variable current loads and that varying current can have very fast rise and fall times. This produces significant magnetic and electrical fields around the wire. If there is interaction between the fields from the + and - conductors this can increase the effective impedance of the cable slowing down the rate of change the cable can deliver current.

 

The geometric arrangement of the wires are primarily working on the magnetic fields and the dielectric is primarily working on the electric fields. The insulation around the wire (the dielectric) interacts with the electric fields produced by the current changes, essentially preventing the current from changing as fast. The the lower the value of these parameters the less interaction with the electric fields produced by the current in the conductors.

 

Teflon has quite low values for these properties, this is what is important, not the bulk resistivity or any mechanical properties.

 

There is also a property of Teflon which almost nobody talks about, the glass transition temperature is 27C (81F), this is where significant structural changes happen which significantly change the electrical properties. Unfortunately this is right in "normal" human environment range. Thus cables, parts connectors etc which use Teflon may find their electrical properties changing significantly depending how warm or cold you keep your house, whether sun is shining in the window etc. 

 

Other plastics with good properties have either much lower or much higher transitions which at least keep them constant.

 

John S.