The EtherREGEN thread for various network, cable, power experiences and experiments

[Rsbrsvp]

What is FBA?

[Iving]

17 minutes ago, Rsbrsvp said:

What is FBA?

 

"File Based Audio" ...

 

... as opposed to music "streamed" from the internet.

 

FBA is often associated with an internet-offline "streamer"

 

which shows you how muddy terminology can be.

 

afaik @Clockmeister has a bespoke FBA "streamer".

 

I use a computer.

 

I guess most EtherRegen users "stream" music from the internet - and appreciate the ER advantage in a particular way.

 

You were talking about "downloaded" (i.e. FBA) vs. "streamed directly".

 

I am greatly in favour of being internet-offline (and I don't download my music) ...

 

yet I am a great fan of the ER in my RedNet system.

 

Like Clockmeister I don't use SATA - strong preference for Optane - and music is my first love, not tech!

[Rsbrsvp]

If I download my music on a separate computer, how do I rout it to my endpoint- perhaps by way of etherregen?

 

Do I need airplay or chromecast or is there another option?

[skatbelt]

11 hours ago, Rsbrsvp said:

I have a mutec Ref10 SE-120 connected to my Etherregen and a superb Power supply.  It does help a lot.

 

Still, playing downloaded music from my SSD is better than streaming direct.

 

Why?  And is that download quality being effected by the switch, PS, and Mutec clock?

 

To bring even more variety to the discussion. For me, adding a Ref-10 as an external clock to the etherREGEN did not improve things. This surprised me because of the positive comments here of adding an external clock. I suspect this has to do with the up- and downstream components relative to ER in my system. Downstream: dCS Network Bridge and the Chord DAVE DAC. The dCS NB re-clocks the incoming signal again and it is also buffering. Upstream: Sonore opticalModule fed by LPS1.2. This unit also re-clocks to my knowledge.

 

Another difference from your observation: the difference between streaming and local file playback is negligible in my system since etherREGEN / opticalModule.

 

Question for others: did anyone hear improvements with a better than Ref-10 external clock in a system that already had etherREGEN / opticalModule? If so, which clock and what is downstream etherREGEN?

[Rsbrsvp]

Has anyone compared streaming from router to etheregen to pc VS NAS by way of router to etherregen and then to PC?

 

Does NAS sourced streaming sound better than direct streaming or is NAS just a convenience or alternative storage medium?

[Clockmeister]

8 hours ago, skatbelt said:

 

To bring even more variety to the discussion. For me, adding a Ref-10 as an external clock to the etherREGEN did not improve things. This surprised me because of the positive comments here of adding an external clock. I suspect this has to do with the up- and downstream components relative to ER in my system. Downstream: dCS Network Bridge and the Chord DAVE DAC. The dCS NB re-clocks the incoming signal again and it is also buffering. Upstream: Sonore opticalModule fed by LPS1.2. This unit also re-clocks to my knowledge.

 

A

 

Some interesting observations Skatbelt, I have come across two situations in the last three years where a ref10 did not make a positive difference to a system. Both cases the system was in a much smaller listening area and the sound staging could not form correctly.

 

We have a few clients which use the same digital sources as your self, they all use a ref10, however they also use a an MC3+usb between the DCS & Dave, the MC3+usb can output a pcm reference world clock derived from the incoming sample rate (ie 44.1khz & 48Kz multiples) which is then fed back into the dcs (which has two clock inputs and you can use two outputs form the Mutec MC3+ one for each multiple)

 

This brings a double benefit of of having the PCM data stream reclocked, plus a work clock input to the DCS as well.

Also you can really improve this by using the Ref10 to slave the MC3+.

You are going to mention using two separate XLR pcm data streams into the Dave, however you maybe surprised by just one reclocked XLR input.

 

if you wished to be top draw then a pair of MC3+usb's would really take you up another level and then some.

 

One question though, are you using the DSP in the Lyndorf for room correction?

[MartinT]

There are so many different ways to configure a system.  In my case, using the ultraRendu, playing files uses OneDrive or Google Drive for the file store.  I do have a few files ripped from precious CDs that are not available on streaming services.

 

Therefore, FBA for me is indistinguishable from streaming as they both come down exactly the same playback chain.

[soares]

14 hours ago, skatbelt said:

 

To bring even more variety to the discussion. For me, adding a Ref-10 as an external clock to the etherREGEN did not improve things. This surprised me because of the positive comments here of adding an external clock. I suspect this has to do with the up- and downstream components relative to ER in my system. Downstream: dCS Network Bridge and the Chord DAVE DAC. The dCS NB re-clocks the incoming signal again and it is also buffering. Upstream: Sonore opticalModule fed by LPS1.2. This unit also re-clocks to my knowledge.

 

Another difference from your observation: the difference between streaming and local file playback is negligible in my system since etherREGEN / opticalModule.

 

Question for others: did anyone hear improvements with a better than Ref-10 external clock in a system that already had etherREGEN / opticalModule? If so, which clock and what is downstream etherREGEN?

It worked even with the cheap Chinese clock.

Currently using a Emperor Giesemann clock. 
 

[skatbelt]

16 hours ago, Clockmeister said:

 

One question though, are you using the DSP in the Lyndorf for room correction?

 

Thank you for your extensive reply and suggestions. Yes, I do use Lyngdorf's roomperfect/DRC. It does a lot in my listening environment. It takes it to a really high level. However - and to rule out too much variables - the first critical assessments and comparisons are always with my headphone system.

 

I don't see the direct benefits of adding a MC3+ usb between dCS NB and DAVE. To output USB? I now use AES/EBU between dCS and DAVE and feel blessed that I have been able to drop USB as a protocol and connection type. Too brittle, too sensitive, too many dependencies in my experience.

[One and a half]

On 4/27/2021 at 8:13 AM, skatbelt said:

 

To bring even more variety to the discussion. For me, adding a Ref-10 as an external clock to the etherREGEN did not improve things. This surprised me because of the positive comments here of adding an external clock. I suspect this has to do with the up- and downstream components relative to ER in my system. Downstream: dCS Network Bridge and the Chord DAVE DAC. The dCS NB re-clocks the incoming signal again and it is also buffering. Upstream: Sonore opticalModule fed by LPS1.2. This unit also re-clocks to my knowledge.

 

Another difference from your observation: the difference between streaming and local file playback is negligible in my system since etherREGEN / opticalModule.

 

Question for others: did anyone hear improvements with a better than Ref-10 external clock in a system that already had etherREGEN / opticalModule? If so, which clock and what is downstream etherREGEN?

Thanks @skatbelt, could you describe what you heard when connecting the REF-10.  In particular,  if the image deteriorated , distortions or just no difference worthwhile. 

 

Pretty sure the ER BNC shell is floating,  so any ground would be referenced back to the clock. If the clock is also ungrounded, there could be a problem there.

[JohnSwenson]

4 hours ago, One and a half said:

Thanks @skatbelt, could you describe what you heard when connecting the REF-10.  In particular,  if the image deteriorated , distortions or just no difference worthwhile. 

 

Pretty sure the ER BNC shell is floating,  so any ground would be referenced back to the clock. If the clock is also ungrounded, there could be a problem there.

In the ER the shell of the BNC jack is connected to the B side ground.

 

John S.

[Clockmeister]

7 hours ago, skatbelt said:

 

 

 

I don't see the direct benefits of adding a MC3+ usb between dCS NB and DAVE. To output USB? I now use AES/EBU between dCS and DAVE and feel blessed that I have been able to drop USB as a protocol and connection type. Too brittle, too sensitive, too many dependencies in my experience.

Hello Skatbelt

 

the benefit is very positive you would be using the aes output into the Mc3+usb then using its reclocking ability to improve the Dcs then output Aes again the usb model delivers superior performance to the noi usb model

 

you would not be using the usb input at all

 

I also agree that USB audio is not the best method of moving PCM

 

Our customer base has many full stack Dcs customers and every one has some Mutec products in benefitting their system usually the ref 10 slaving the Dcs Vivaldi clock or those who are really looking for top draw performance use two mc3+usb's one to clock each aes stream and slaved to an SE-120

 

I have never ever come across a backwards result with a ref10, sideways yes though this was due to other contributing factors

 

our company designs digital audio products,specialist green energy research and power supplies for IoT and milspec applications. We also have extensive serial data experianes with in depth power analysis and jitter reduction techniques one of the Mutec ref10's is used as a reference signal distribution in the lab for the  scopes/real time spectrum analysers / vector network analysis and dc power investigations

 

 

 

I use two Mutec ref 10 SE-120 clocks one in the audio system and one on the lab.

 

we also have around 12 reference clocks of various frequencies from very modest to company acquisition level

 

so we are well versed in all aspects of serial data signal integrity including full TDR transmission line measurements and design

 

genuinely though the Dave responds well to reclocking/cables and mains treatments imho

 

 

 

 

[One and a half]

2 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

In the ER the shell of the BNC jack is connected to the B side ground.

 

John S.

Ok, it is definitely not connected on the A side or the power supply 0V.

[skatbelt]

8 hours ago, One and a half said:

Thanks @skatbelt, could you describe what you heard when connecting the REF-10.  In particular,  if the image deteriorated , distortions or just no difference worthwhile. 

 

Pretty sure the ER BNC shell is floating,  so any ground would be referenced back to the clock. If the clock is also ungrounded, there could be a problem there.

 

Hi Gary, just no difference noteworthy. To give an indication: 'rolling' SFP's made a bigger difference. I borrowed the REF-10 from a good friend and in his system it makes a positive difference. But he has the ER B-side directly connected to the ethernet input of his Lyngdorf TDAI-3400. 

 

 

[LowMidHigh]

23 minutes ago, skatbelt said:

 

Hi Gary, just no difference noteworthy. To give an indication: 'rolling' SFP's made a bigger difference. I borrowed the REF-10 from a good friend and in his system it makes a positive difference. But he has the ER B-side directly connected to the ethernet input of his Lyngdorf TDAI-3400. 

 

 

 

It takes a few good days for the Ref10 to stabilize.

[Superdad]

6 hours ago, One and a half said:

Ok, it is definitely not connected on the A side or the power supply 0V.

That is correct. 

[Confused]

10 hours ago, Clockmeister said:

Our customer base has many full stack Dcs customers and every one has some Mutec products in benefitting their system usually the ref 10 slaving the Dcs Vivaldi clock or those who are really looking for top draw performance use two mc3+usb's one to clock each aes stream and slaved to an SE-120

What services do you provide for your customers?  Just curious!

[skatbelt]

8 hours ago, LowMidHigh said:

 

It takes a few good days for the Ref10 to stabilize.

 

I had it in my system for more than a week.

 

My provisional thought is that there is only so much that can be gained by cleaning up the incoming signal to the dCS Network Bridge. I can imagine as per @Clockmeister suggestions that there is further improvement possible between the dCS NB and DAVE but I don't see myself stacking two MC3+'s and a REF-10. I like to keep things simple. But I can imagine future system where one master clock references a switch, streamer and DAC.

 

If I remember correctly, 'the Uptones' also indicated that there would be little to gain with an external clock for the ER. Or did @Superdad and @JohnSwenson come back from that?

[PYP]

11 minutes ago, skatbelt said:

If I remember correctly, 'the Uptones' also indicated that there would be little to gain with an external clock for the ER. Or did @Superdad and @JohnSwenson come back from that?

Many folks, myself included, have found an external clock makes a significant contribution.  Please see the clock thread for more than anyone cares to read.  

[Superdad]

4 minutes ago, skatbelt said:

If I remember correctly, 'the Uptones' also indicated that there would be little to gain with an external clock for the ER.

 

No, our stance has always just been that an upgraded clock and power supply are not required in order to enjoy the majority of the benefits of the EtherREGEN.

But producing the device with provision for those to be added allowed us to offer the basic (yet still VERY advanced!) switch at reasonable cost, and for those who wish to carry it further.

We could build a big EtherREGEN with state-of-the-art AC>DC power supply and top-end OCXO built in (plus other enhancements), but the price would then be several thousand. Not going there anytime soon... 

[PYP]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

 

We could build a big EtherREGEN with state-of-the-art AC>DC power supply and top-end OCXO built in (plus other enhancements), but the price would then be several thousand. Not going there anytime soon... 

Many are wondering about your definition of soon.    But this is just recognition of eR's contribution.    

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, PYP said:

Many are wondering about your definition of soon.  

As in most certainly not this year.  We have other exciting (non-Ethernet) things in the works! 

[LowMidHigh]

2 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

No, our stance has always just been that an upgraded clock and power supply are not required in order to enjoy the majority of the benefits of the EtherREGEN.

But producing the device with provision for those to be added allowed us to offer the basic (yet still VERY advanced!) switch at reasonable cost, and for those who wish to carry it further.

We could build a big EtherREGEN with state-of-the-art AC>DC power supply and top-end OCXO built in (plus other enhancements), but the price would then be several thousand. Not going there anytime soon... 

 

It's a wise business decision. One of the appeals of ER is the value it represents. The fact that more ambitious users can incorporate an external clock and a LPS sets the product astride the "bang-for-the-buck" and high-end markets. 

[R1200CL]

I’m not requesting a big or more advanced EtherRegen. Only SFP or SFP+ in and out, and one (or two) external clock input. If needed, dual power supply input. I guess a RJ45 in as well.
 

This only to have a version that can be used for endpoints or DAC’s with fiber input.

 

The B>A option isn’t as good as the A>B, when a external clock is used.

[Rsbrsvp]

The Etherregen does indeed do a fantastic job without external clock or upgraded PS, but with them, especially the upgraded PS, it is a substantial improvement.  I am glad Uptone did not develop an etherregen with built in high end PS and OXCO because this way it is substantially less expensive, and yet I can add my own PS and OXCO if and when I choose.

 

I do want to mention that to my ears, to get the best out of the etherregen for those who can afford, not only is a upgraded PS and OXCO of benefit but I have found that streaming music from a NAS or a separate NUC (with a SSD) connected to the A side of my etherregen REALLY improved sonics over streaming direct from my music provider.

 

I have always found that locally stored music on my SSD of my fanless PC always sounded preferable than when streamed from my provider, yet I have also found the etherregen used for streaming to be of enormous benefit. So I finally combined both ideas and attached a fanless NUC with  SSD to my etherregen side A to act as a NAS.   I download all amazon and Qobuz music to this NUC and using my control PC which is connected to the B side of the etherregen I retrieve the file from the NUC.  This way I get the advantage of SSD playback and also the advantage of the etherregen cleaning up the stream from the SSD of the NUC before it arrives at my endpoint.  I guess this is a simple idea that most of you already employ, but I Just figured it out recently by way of experimentation.

 

I have found downloaded music from my streaming service when filtered by the etherregen to be absolutely fabulous and in fact, streaming from a NAS to my ears provides a similar level improvement to a high quality upgraded PS for the etherregen.