Popular Post mansr Posted June 3, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 3, 2017 4 minutes ago, Superdad said: That means a lot in the face of the barrage that my act of cancelling Amir's order (for personal reasons) has caused You know, you could have spared yourself all that grief by simply selling Amir the damn thing. esldude and tmtomh 2 Link to comment
mansr Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 39 minutes ago, PeterSt said: This is for those who like challenges. This is 15 minutes long, the phosphor of the scope never deleting. Btw mind the horizontal scale which is meant to show the length of the audio word (so this is the output of Jabbr's DAC, so to speak). The below shows that this is 13ps of p-p jitter but it's a moot thing because I use the trace width to measure, and the width is 13ps "thick" and can't be more thin. Call it scope limits. But this should really be well under 1ps p-p. Btw this is not from USB isolation; this is the internal isolation in I2S. One of these days I will make some plots from USB itself, behind the USB isolation (our own). People, if this would be so easy to measure, why don't we see these plots anywhere from manufacturers ? Answer : not per se because the outcome is bad. But the gear is expensive ... Here's a bonus : 210ps p-p of jitter. What changed ? this is without in-DAC isolation ... (this is data impeded jitter) What exactly is being measured in those graphs? What scope are you using? Link to comment
jabbr Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 24 minutes ago, PeterSt said: I would be careful with this. The FPGA shows how much jitter ? We can measure that So there is this whole field of digital phase comparison needed for phase array radars, GPS systems, SDR (software defined radar) and these are one of the main drivers of high end FPGA. In any case John Miles is a real guy who made a real system that's been tested against everything from HP née Agilent nee Keysight and got picked up by Microsemi so at least some people think he knows what he's doing MikeyFresh 1 Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
rickca Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 14 minutes ago, Superdad said: I'll call this lost weekend something else None of your customers consider this a lost weekend. You're doing what we want. Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs i7-6700K/Windows 10 --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's Link to comment
Popular Post Superdad Posted June 3, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 3, 2017 19 minutes ago, mansr said: You know, you could have spared yourself all that grief by simply selling Amir the damn thing. When I was in grade school I knew I would get teased and beat up later on--but I still did not give the bully my lunch money. (Besides, this thread seems to be great for sales! ) tmtomh, tapatrick, Matias and 4 others 7 UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
Popular Post pam1975 Posted June 3, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 3, 2017 @superdad I bought one product from you a while ago, that's it. I'm not a cult follower. But you are a class act in the way you run your business. I can just tell from every thread I've seen you participate to even though I only exchanged emails with you twice. I've run a business myself for 20 years and I fired 2 clients in my career because they were jerks. Very polite jerks mind you. Every time they shook my mind I had to count my fingers to make sure they were still there. As a business man, you are entitled to do business with whomever you want and whatever names other people call you, let it slide. Maybe you are dick in real life. Or maybe they are, but they just don't know it. Leadership is about knowing when to shut up. You've stated your stance, move on - really nothing more to add at this point, right? Now, about making $$, GOOD ON YOU! you are running a business, not some sort of not for profit. as a french dude and an engineer for that matter, I'm just glad one cannot "measure" wine and I still have my taste as the main way of qualifying how I feel about one grand cru vs the other. And to date that is still the way every sommelier on this planet works. I wish you keep up the 70 hour workweek for as long as possible and make more dough for the family. tapatrick, Keith_W and mikicasellas 3 Link to comment
jabbr Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 3 hours ago, lmitche said: That's right, I forgot that for some they need to see one of these: Before they trust their ears. Have fun with that! If you aren't going to trust your ears you need one of these: and Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
plissken Posted June 3, 2017 Author Share Posted June 3, 2017 2 hours ago, Superdad said: Is the marketplace not filled with audio companies offering rafts of afforable-to-pricey add-ons, cables, sources, DACs, etc. for which no measurements are offered and for which far more outrageous claims of SQ improvement are made? Where is your outrage over them? You may want to take a look at the two threads where I tested $699 3 foot Ethernet and $340 12 foot Ethernet cable. What DAC can I order, in conjunction with a regenerator, to hear this? Link to comment
Popular Post Daudio Posted June 3, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 3, 2017 1 hour ago, jabbr said: and Uh, oh, could it be another "My meter is Bigger then Yours" battle brewing ? Middy and lucretius 2 Link to comment
christopher3393 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 33 minutes ago, plissken said: You may want to take a look at the two threads where I tested $699 3 foot Ethernet and $340 12 foot Ethernet cable. What DAC can I order, in conjunction with a regenerator, to hear this? ...admit it... Link to comment
Popular Post wgscott Posted June 3, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 3, 2017 What would be of great benefit would be to depersonalize this issue. If folks could agree to do that, then the next step would be to determine what measurement or set of measurements both "sides" of the debate could agree in advance would be decisive either way. The third step would be to find some competent, neutral party that has access to the equipment, to cary out the experiments. christopher3393, esldude, Teresa and 5 others 8 Link to comment
Fitzcaraldo215 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 26 minutes ago, wgscott said: What would be of great benefit would be to depersonalize this issue. If folks could agree to do that, then the next step would be to determine what measurement or set of measurements both "sides" of the debate could agree in advance would be decisive either way. The third step would be to find some competent, neutral party that has access to the equipment, to cary out the experiments. Quite logical and rational. Except, that is not the issue here. Is it ever at CA? Amir wishes to purchase and to make measurements of the ISO, as he did with the original Regen. Alex says he will not sell to Amir for undisclosed PERSONAL reasons, simultaneously claiming he is OK with measurements of any kind. So, the disconnect is not a logical one and is seemingly more complex, based on secret inside information, difficult as that may be to fathom. So, kids, stay close to your radios. Will Amir snatch an ISO Regen and submit it to his torturous measurements? Or, will Sir Alex, and his noble Squire Swenson, save the galaxy from the evil bully and troublemaker? mansr 1 Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 5 hours ago, mav52 said: Got to agree. If a manufacturer has confidence in their product, what better way than have a third party with the necessary instruments "check it out". Results are just that, results. Independent of any measurements, how they are taken, with what, or by whom... I asked about a return privilege because that would allow me to listen to this device with my DAC, in my system and return it if the rather impressive claims are not met. As one person noted, there is nothing on the web site stating a return is allowed. That suggests a lack of confidence in the product. Link to comment
Daudio Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 22 minutes ago, Fitzcaraldo215 said: Alex says he will not sell to Amir for undisclosed PERSONAL reasons Careful, you're getting too presidential there, and not helping anything Alex clearly stated his reasons a number of times, in this thread !! It pays to pay attention Link to comment
Popular Post Tone Deaf Posted June 3, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 3, 2017 27 minutes ago, Ralf11 said: As one person noted, there is nothing on the web site stating a return is allowed. That suggests a lack of confidence in the product. Not quite true. Pretty clear for the ISO Regen. https://uptoneaudio.com/products/iso-regen "As with all UpTone products, the ISO REGEN is sold with a 30-day, money-back, satisfaction guarantee. So just buy it and try it! " jabbr, tmtomh, Keith_W and 3 others 6 Main System: Mac mini (Audirvana+, MMK, JS-2) -> ISO Regen (LPS-1) -> Icron 2201 (Rex LPS-1.2) -> ISO Regen (LPS-1.2) -> Ayre QB-9 Twenty -> Headamp GS-X Mk2 -> Classe CT-M600 -> KEF Reference 201/2 Link to comment
k-man Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 4 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said: If I remember correctly, he sells Berkeley Audio Design. I checked Amir's website (the one other than ASR) to see which companies he represents. As ambiguous as a M Night Shyamalan movie. Link to comment
Popular Post Superdad Posted June 3, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 3, 2017 22 minutes ago, Ralf11 said: As one person noted, there is nothing on the web site stating a return is allowed. I am starting to think that the measurements this crowd needs is of their eyesight! From the very first day the ISO REGEN product page went up, my 30-day, money-back-satisfaction guarantee has been right there in bold type in at the top of the page. We don't even charge any restock fee as others do, and mostly I look the other way when someone forgets to include all the items or scratches the case of the device. (We hardly ever get returns so its not a big deal.) 22 minutes ago, Ralf11 said: That suggests a lack of confidence in the product. Good grief. tmtomh, AnotherSpin, Doak and 5 others 8 UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
jabbr Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 56 minutes ago, wgscott said: What would be of great benefit would be to depersonalize this issue. If folks could agree to do that, then the next step would be to determine what measurement or set of measurements both "sides" of the debate could agree in advance would be decisive either way. The third step would be to find some competent, neutral party that has access to the equipment, to cary out the experiments. First step -- absolutely necessary Second step -- Entirely agree -- at the very least we might discuss & agree upon a reasonable set of tests Third step is harder because the person or organization doing the testing needs to be funded and therin lie the issues with impartiality Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
Popular Post jabbr Posted June 3, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 3, 2017 1 hour ago, Daudio said: Uh, oh, could it be another "My meter is Bigger then Yours" battle brewing ? Haha just giving a hint at what degree of difficulty these tests might entail Daudio and christopher3393 2 Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
mansr Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 1 hour ago, wgscott said: What would be of great benefit would be to depersonalize this issue. Alex made it personal. He can fix that by selling a device to Amir. Link to comment
SWL3600 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 It's not that hard. Buy it and if you don't like it, return the damn thing within 30 days. Get your money back and buy some cable elevators or something so we can make fun of you. Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted June 3, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 3, 2017 27 minutes ago, k-man said: I checked Amir's website (the one other than ASR) to see which companies he represents. As ambiguous as a M Night Shyamalan movie. Ah thanks for the link. It seems he is fine making a buck off very expensive products and will not publish measurements of those products (even though he has easy access), but he is more than willing to hurt another's business by publishing mis-measurements on more than one occasion. This doesn't pass the smell test for those seeking objective, unbiased data without a hidden agenda. Teresa, jhwalker, Keith_W and 8 others 11 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post Jud Posted June 3, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 3, 2017 1 hour ago, wgscott said: What would be of great benefit would be to depersonalize this issue. If folks could agree to do that, then the next step would be to determine what measurement or set of measurements both "sides" of the debate could agree in advance would be decisive either way. The third step would be to find some competent, neutral party that has access to the equipment, to cary out the experiments. We've already had independent blind testing by two people (I was one) in which the test design most closely resembling the production version of the ISO Regen was decisively chosen in a few minutes of listening. If we don't get analog DAC output measurements (or for that matter digital input measurements) to explain this, then where are we? Should we conclude the two blind testers confidently deluded themselves so strongly in the same direction (the same direction as two non-blinded listeners, including the designer)? Or in that case would we credit the blind test results over the lack of confirming measurements and say maybe the thing works, but we're not sure how? Booster MPS, christopher3393, Teresa and 2 others 5 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
jabbr Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 2 minutes ago, Jud said: We've already had independent blind testing by two people (I was one) in which the test design most closely resembling the production version of the ISO Regen was decisively chosen in a few minutes of listening. So, assuming this is valid with a larger number of evaluators, a proper measurement would be able to distinguish something that is audible. eg if there are phase error differences that would lend support to the proposition that altering phase error is audible. Custom room treatments for headphone users. Link to comment
Popular Post Superdad Posted June 3, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted June 3, 2017 20 minutes ago, mansr said: Alex made it personal. He can fix that by selling a device to Amir. christopher3393, lucretius, tmtomh and 5 others 8 UpTone Audio LLC Link to comment
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