Amir at ASR claims Uptone won't sell the ISO regen to him...

[plissken]

Here is an eye pattern w/o any added gizmo. Image from Tektronix.

 

 

So my question is: What device is being shown in the eye patterns supplied by Alex?

 

What would the eye pattern test look like with a good USB hub?

 

Where are the analog output measurements showing a DAC incapable of keeping it together?

 

As long as samples in the Mask Compliance and Mask Margin are not in the keep-out area you are good to go with either eye pattern. 

[plissken]

20 minutes ago, firedog said:

I never made any negative comment about JA or his measurements. Again, as Alex has said he would be willing to send an ISO Regen to JA for review and meansuement, I'm not sure how any of this has anything to do with me having an agenda. 

 

I have my opinions. What "agenda" do you think I have?

 

Amir came to the same result as JA but Amir is somehow a problem child for it and JA is not. That's the definition of having an agenda Jabbr. 

 

Amir has never name called but he is respectfully vocal. There's a difference. 

 

My bottom line is that Alex said he would blind evaluate his own product and then disappeared. This is egregious compared to anything Amir has said. Alex's reputation is mud to me currently. 

[Sal1950]

4 hours ago, lmitche said:

Anyone that needs measurements to accept the positive impact of the ISO Regen on sound quality is in the wrong hobby.

 

Actually you have that backwards. Anyone willing to accept the outcome of biased, sighted, mass delusional results to judge the worth of a audio component is in the wrong hobby.  Without the supporting evidence of science, pure opinion is worthless. These sort of things more rightly belong on a magicians stage.

1 hour ago, plissken said:

 

Funny, when John Atkinson measured the Regen it actually measured WORSE then no regen. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Findings that corroborate Amir and some others. Who has the agenda here? 

Yes but in the interest of objectivity the source should be quoted.

"Using this long cable and my MacBook Pro running on battery power, I tested the Regen with a PS Audio PerfectWave DirectStream DAC and a Meridian Prime D/A headphone amplifier, using my Audio Precision SYS2722 analyzer and the same test signals I'd used for the JitterBug review. Sad to report, I found that the Regen made absolutely no difference in the D/A processors' analog output signals. With one exception: the levels of the power-supply–related spuriae in the Prime's output when powered by its wall wart were slightly higher in level with the Regen than without it."

John Atkinson

 

But then there, as so often happens with many here, The subjective "ears only" reviewers ignored the evidence and heard all sort of unsupportable changes in the sound., A ridiculous approach to technology that would not be accepted in any other serious endeavor that I'm aware of.

 

[lmitche]

3 minutes ago, Sal1950 said:

 

Actually you have that backwards. Anyone willing to accept the outcome of biased, sighted, mass delusional results to judge the worth of a audio component is in the wrong hobby.  Without the supporting evidence of science, pure opinion is worthless. These sort of things more rightly belong on a magicians stage.

Yes but in the interest of objectivity the source should be quoted. But then

"Using this long cable and my MacBook Pro running on battery power, I tested the Regen with a PS Audio PerfectWave DirectStream DAC and a Meridian Prime D/A headphone amplifier, using my Audio Precision SYS2722 analyzer and the same test signals I'd used for the JitterBug review. Sad to report, I found that the Regen made absolutely no difference in the D/A processors' analog output signals. With one exception: the levels of the power-supply–related spuriae in the Prime's output when powered by its wall wart were slightly higher in level with the Regen than without it."

John Atkinson

 

But then there, as so often happens with many here, The subjective "ears only" reviewers ignored the evidence and heard all sort of unsupportable changes in the sound., A ridiculous approach to technology that would not be accepted in any other serious endeavor that I'm aware of.

 

That's right, I forgot that for some they need to see one of these: 

Before they trust their ears.  Have fun with that!

[jabbr]

6 minutes ago, plissken said:

Here is an eye pattern w/o any added gizmo. Image from Tektronix.

 

 

So my question is: What device is being shown in the eye patterns supplied by Alex?

 

What would the eye pattern test look like with a good USB hub?

 

Where are the analog output measurements showing a DAC incapable of keeping it together?

 

As long as Mask Compliance and Mask Margin are not in the keep-out area you are good to go with either eye pattern. 

 

The regen essentially is a good USB hub

 

I wouldn't expect it to help in every situation and for every DAC. As I've said (repeatedly), I view this issue primarily as the responsibility of the DAC. I know that most DACs use a module such as he Amanero (or others) that might go for $50-100 retail and in many cases might use the clocks that come on these modules as their DAC master. So in many cases this "USB isolation" etc may be suboptimal for audio.

 

I entirely agree that there should be proper measurements showing an improvement at the analog output of the DAC. I've proposed some measurements (not BTW what JA or Amir have published).

 

In a perfect world you are correct. We should be good to go but we aren't and, for example, nowadays with a $20 Crystek having the specs it has there is no reason to have a less than cheap DAC than meets less than these specs... but we aren't in a perfect world and there is opportunity for improvement in the electronics ... and note that e.g the DSC1 we have a great idea of what each of the parts that go into a DAC is.

 

Regarding above post, I am sure that JA has an agenda. I don't know Amir enough to say. Do you think I have an agenda? (if you do you'd be surprised). In any case lots of folks have agendas ... let's try to be objective and rational.

 

[plissken]

3 minutes ago, lmitche said:

That's right, I forgot that for some they need to see one of these: 

Before they trust their ears.  Have fun with that!

 

If Alex doesn't trust his ears (he backed out of it like a scalded pig) why should I? And yes Alex is asking people to trust his ears before he or someone else says "I'm not asking you to trust my ears, I'm asking you to trust yours". If you weren't asking people to trust your ears you wouldn't be developing this product for sale. 

[jabbr]

11 minutes ago, Sal1950 said:

"Using this long cable and my MacBook Pro running on battery power, I tested the Regen with a PS Audio PerfectWave DirectStream DAC and a Meridian Prime D/A headphone amplifier, using my Audio Precision SYS2722 analyzer and the same test signals I'd used for the JitterBug review. Sad to report, I found that the Regen made absolutely no difference in the D/A processors' analog output signals. With one exception: the levels of the power-supply–related spuriae in the Prime's output when powered by its wall wart were slightly higher in level with the Regen than without it."

John Atkinson

 

 

Ha ha, ok! Do you have any idea about why the PS Audio DAC might not show a difference?

[mav52]

14 hours ago, Sal1950 said:

Are you really so scared that some bit of poor engineering will be revealed by Amir's measurements that you have to refuse a sale? LOL. Is your faith in the ISO so weak that you have attempt to hide it? Or do you just insist on a belief in your magic dust?  Although Amir would never let any personal animosity to bias his results, I'd think you'd want a reviewer to look into things without throwing him personal insults before hand.

A very sad and lame approach from a supposed engineer Alex

Got to agree.  If a manufacturer has confidence in their product, what better way than have a third party with the necessary instruments "check it out".   Results are just that, results.

[lmitche]

6 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

If Alex doesn't trust his ears (he backed out of it like a scalded pig) why should I? And yes Alex is asking people to trust his ears before he or someone else says "I'm not asking you to trust my ears, I'm asking you to trust yours". If you weren't asking people to trust your ears you wouldn't be developing this product for sale. 

It is Amir's behavior that Alex doesn't trust.

 

At least Alex has the courage and conviction to bring a new product to market.  He did something.  Amir is just a pundit with a bias, all talk and no skin in the game.

[plissken]

Just now, lmitche said:

It is Amir's behavior that Alex doesn't trust.

 

At least Alex has the courage and conviction to bring a new product to market.  He did something.  Amir is just a pundit with a bias, all talk and no skin in the game.

 

Here's the perfect defense against Slander: "The Truth". Alex is welcome to present it anytime he chooses to. 

[firedog]

35 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

Amir came to the same result as JA but Amir is somehow a problem child for it and JA is not. That's the definition of having an agenda Jabbr. 

 

Amir has never name called but he is respectfully vocal. There's a difference. 

 

My bottom line is that Alex said he would blind evaluate his own product and then disappeared. This is egregious compared to anything Amir has said. Alex's reputation is mud to me currently. 

 

First, you are responding to me here, not Jabbr

Agenda- again your point makes no sense. I've read Amir's forum, and his explanations of how he does his work. I've also read criticisms of his work and methods.

I've come to the conclusion that his methods aren't trustworthy and that he seems to have an agenda. You regard him more faorably. We can agree to disagree. Doesn't mean I have an agenda about Amir. Means I have an opinion based on what I've read. It is as legitimite as yours. 

 

I've read Stereophile for years and haven't yet seen any reason I shouldn't trust JA and what he does. So I trust him and not Amir. The fact that they produced similar measurements of the Regen is one data point among many. Not enough to outweigh what I consider to be many negative data points I've come across in getting to my conclusion about Amir.

[firedog]

17 minutes ago, mav52 said:

Got to agree.  If a manufacturer has confidence in their product, what better way than have a third party with the necessary instruments "check it out".   Results are just that, results.

Alex specifically stated he is willing to have third parties evaluate his product and named some of them. 

He said he isn't willing to sell his product to Amir as he feels Amir made out of line (my phrasing) comments about Alex on his forum.  He also said he doesn't care if a third party sends Amir an IsoRegen.

So your point seems moot. 

 

"Results are results". The question remains, how were they arrived at and what do they mean, if anything. The answer to that question isn't always clear 

[MikeyFresh]

7 hours ago, Daudio said:

 

Nothing like Amir to bring out the worst of the rif raf and mentally disturbed 

 

Poignant to say the least.

[AnotherSpin]

5 hours ago, mansr said:

It doesn't matter if Amir is the biggest jerk to ever walk the face of the earth. By refusing to sell him a device, Alex still looks like he is hiding something. I can see three possible reasons for this refusal:

1. Alex knows it's a scam and is afraid he'll be found out.
2. Alex has no confidence in his product and is afraid it will be shown useless.
3. Alex is a petty, vindictive dick.

I'd also like to point out that the approved reviewers who'd be permitted to measure the device are known for never publishing a negative review. Even when the measured performance is questionable, they find some way to praise the product.

 

inferiority complex?

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Does Amir still sell audio components that compete with the components he measures?  

 

If I remember correctly, he sells Berkeley Audio Design. Has he measured that and published it compared to much cheaper DACs he doesn't sell?

[Jud]

3 hours ago, plissken said:

 

Uh, his ears. As in Alex should allow for someone to setup a blind testing rig.

 

Get a windows machine and two DAC's. Feed the DAC's output into a preamp with multiple inputs. One DAC has the regen and another not. Windows can feed both DAC's the same stream at the same time.

 

This would be single blind with someone doing the input switching. 

 

I was one of two people to do blind testing on preliminary test versions of the ISO Regen.  The other tester and I each independently selected the same test version (the one closest to the current production build) within 5 minutes of listening.  Not close between the two.

 

So what you're asking for already happened.

[MikeyFresh]

1 hour ago, plissken said:

 

If Alex doesn't trust his ears (he backed out of it like a scalded pig) why should I? And yes Alex is asking people to trust his ears before he or someone else says "I'm not asking you to trust my ears, I'm asking you to trust yours". If you weren't asking people to trust your ears you wouldn't be developing this product for sale. 

 

Alex sells this device with a money back guarantee, no?

 

So anyone that doesn't like what they hear (or measure if so inclined) can simply return it for a refund, no?

 

What else do you expect Uptone should do, to assure their customer's satisfaction? After all, thats who Uptone is trying to serve, their customers, not forum trolls spewing relentless objectivist dogma, nor some nobody whose claim to fame is a former career at that heralded palace of audio design intellect called Microsoft.

 

Maybe some people have a DAC and other accompanying set-up that doesn't benefit much sonically, or maybe they already use a high quality laboratory grade USB hub, and thats great. They can either take a pass on the ISO REGEN or buy it with a money back guarantee if they are curious and wish to test it in their own system.

 

Unless your name is Amir, in which case you can't buy the product for testing nor can you enjoy the courteous and generous money back return policy. I guess it sux to be Amir then, but it's no big surprise, he's more than earned it.

 

[Jud]

12 hours ago, esldude said:

Sorry, you can't listen to that signal.  People can only listen to the analog output of a DAC.  Do you have any measurements that show any improvement in the analog output of a DAC with the Regen vs without?

 

Due to the large difference in sound between the two test units found by me and the other blind tester, I think there is some difference occurring at the analog output.  Whether this difference (which both the other tester and I heard as a substantial positive one) is in fact in the direction of greater accuracy and occurs in the way John Swenson, the designer, believes it does, may have to wait until John is able to set up the tests he wants to do.  Or perhaps someone else will be able to trace effects all the way through from digital output of the ISO Regen to analog output of the DAC.

[Daudio]

8 hours ago, firedog said:

Can't blame Amir for that.

 

True, true. I didn't really mean to tar him, of whom I only know a sketchy rep, but to comment on the mobbing of the meter-readers and bully-boys of CA 

 

[Superdad]

2 hours ago, plissken said:

 

If Alex doesn't trust his ears (he backed out of it like a scalded pig) why should I? And yes Alex is asking people to trust his ears before he or someone else says "I'm not asking you to trust my ears, I'm asking you to trust yours". If you weren't asking people to trust your ears you wouldn't be developing this product for sale. 

 

Wow that's some seriously sadistic torturing of logic there @plissken.  It is also riddled with falsehoods.  Arguing with you and the rest is pointless, so I won't bother to poke at your points.  (In the same way that arguing facts with someone of the opposite political perspective is mostly futile and exasperating.)

 

The one thing I would like to know is why UpTone Audio (and by extension me and John personally) are such an attractive target for "pseudo-objectivist" venom.  Is the marketplace not filled with audio companies offering rafts of afforable-to-pricey add-ons, cables, sources, DACs, etc. for which no measurements are offered and for which far more outrageous claims of SQ improvement are made? Where is your outrage over them?

I always avoid naming competitors, but in this context it is pretty obvious to bring up the more than half-dozen each related products by iFi Audio and SOtM. The former's web pages go over-the-top with marketing claims and graphics without offering any measurements, while the latter offers $700 clock boards for or in their USB and streamer devices.  Why aren't your collective heads exploding over those and the principals of those companies?

 

I have an idea as to why, and it has to do with the same business philosophy that has also made my firm successful and won us thousands of loyal and appreciative customers.  Openness, transparency, and honesty.  From top to bottom.  My background and John's background are both well known (and quite traceable in the industry, going back at least 15 years).  John is the rare engineer with both tremendous knowledge of analog and digital circuits (an EE with 33 years at LSI>Avago>Broadcom, designing the power networks at the heart of large custom chips) and the generosity and writing ability to share his knowledge with the audio community.

 

I don't pretend to be an engineer, and he does not pretend to have all the answers.  There are indeed mechanisms at play in digital audio and its interfaces which are both maddeningly convoluted (how does an upstream data clock phase-noise fingerprint survive and modulate the ground plane and circuits deep inside a DAC?) yet fairly easy to hear the impact of.

John is open with his theories about it, and honest about where he has yet to directly measure cause and effect.  The fact is, to actually probe and measure some of these effects requires expensive and specialized phase-noise measurment equipment we do not presently have (Symmetricon/Microsemi, $30K+). (John is designing, and after his move will start building, an advanced variation of the John Miles TimePod--the long ago affordable unit that Microsemi now sells at an outrageous price.)

He has plenty of other modern, heavyweight (literally) spectrum analyzers and scopes, but no, we don't have a $25K Audio Precision set up.  While an AP system would be handy for producing graphs to satisfy skeptics--and can certainly be useful in analog design--it quite frankly is not a terribly useful system for digital development work.  In medicine, the CT scan is not as useful to the researcher as the marketing microscope.  And like the CT scan, an AP analyzer will tell (those who know how to interprete it) some things, but it won't tell how the patient feels or what the music sounds like.

 

Anyway, back to how our very openness and no BS approach seems also to have made us an easy and attractive target for bullies.  I'm sure most of you have heard the old adage, "Familiarity breeds contempt."  Toss in a bit of envy regarding our success (yes, those units add up to $ and my 7-day workweek is paying off--mostly our college and medical bills), and guess bashing me and UpTone is simply too tempting.

 

Then again, all anybody need do to balance it out is to read a few of the hundreds of user raves about what our UltraCap LPS-1 and/or REGENs have done for their musical pleasure.  I know, our detractors think this is all some sort of Jedi mind trick causing mass delusion.  But I don't twist anybody's arm into buying/trying our products. Read our web site and you will see I had to force myself to come up with marketing fluff (I hate that s**t)--its mostly just dry facts about what we put into our designs and why we think it matters (and the web pages are heavily condensed).  And I offer a 30-day money-back guarantee (to whoever upthread who said they could not find that on out site, you need to adjust your reading glasses--it is in the second paragraph of the ISO REGEN page).

 

Anyway, maybe I am taking this whole thread a bit too personally.  The forums always seem to need a thread or two where the folks who don't trust their ears--or who have general frustrations with how hard it is to fathom that stuff we can't see, in digital transmission which is supposed to be perfect--can find an outlet to vent.  

So flame on!  

 

 

 

 

 

[PeterSt]

This is for those who like challenges.

 

 

This is 15 minutes long, the phosphor of the scope never deleting. Btw mind the horizontal scale which is meant to show the length of the audio word (so this is the output of Jabbr's DAC, so to speak).

 

The below shows that this is 13ps of p-p jitter but it's a moot thing because I use the trace width to measure, and the width is 13ps "thick" and can't be more thin. Call it scope limits. But this should really be well under 1ps p-p.

 

 

Btw this is not from USB isolation; this is the internal isolation in I2S.

One of these days I will make some plots from USB itself, behind the USB isolation (our own).

 

People, if this would be so easy to measure, why don't we see these plots anywhere from manufacturers ?

Answer : not per se because the outcome is bad. But the gear is expensive ...

 

Here's a bonus :

 

 

210ps p-p of jitter. What changed ? this is without in-DAC isolation ... (this is data impeded jitter)

[jabbr]

3 minutes ago, Superdad said:

John is designing, and after his move will start building, an advanced variation of the John Miles TimePod--the long ago affordable unit that Microsemi now sells at an outrageous price.)

 

Very nice approach ... in fact ... basically using a digital phase comparator assumed to be on an FPGA in order to create a phase error measurement system. There are several ways to do this, either with an external known clock and also using a known delay. In any case a fruitful approach ... my own interest in the HP 3048a is that the accuracy of any such system needs to be calibrated against a known system ...

 

It will be great when we can replace the current battery if measurements with better measurements more capable of making subtle distinctions.

[kumakuma]

7 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

Wow that's some seriously sadistic torturing of logic there @plissken.  It is also riddled with falsehoods.  Arguing with you and the rest is pointless, so I won't bother to poke at your points.  (In the same way that arguing facts with someone of the opposite political perspective is mostly futile and exasperating.)

 

<snip>

 

Alex, I consider myself an objectivist and I have no interest in your products BUT I have a ton of respect for the way you do business and your work ethic. Keep up the good work! 

[PeterSt]

4 minutes ago, jabbr said:

Very nice approach ... in fact ... basically using a digital phase comparator assumed to be on an FPGA in order to create a phase error measurement system.

 

I would be careful with this.

The FPGA shows how much jitter ?

 

[Superdad]

10 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

Alex, I consider myself an objectivist and I have no interest in your products BUT I have a ton of respect for the way you do business and your work ethic. Keep up the good work! 

 

Thanks very much @kumakuma.  That means a lot in the face of the barrage that my act of cancelling Amir's order (for personal reasons) has caused.  

 

Also appreciated are the viewpoints of engineers @PeterSt and @jabbr.  They know first hand that measuring all--or even much--of what we hear is not a trivial matter.  Even Atkinson, who has had thousands of pieces of equipment across his AP bench has never found even near-complete correlation between his graphs and the music.  It is easier for some types of gear (speakers, amps), but with a lot of digital its like looking for cells in an x-ray.

 

I have to spend the weekend running 100+ ISO REGENs through screening on a protocol analyzer and testing/sorting firmware flash levels on another 80 UltraCap LPS-1 boards.  And I'll be doing that while sending out 150+ $50 rebates (to ISO REGEN buyers who previously purchased both the LPS-1 and the original USB REGEN).

While you called it "work ethic," I'll call this lost weekend something else...

 

Cheers,

--Alex C.