Amir at ASR claims Uptone won't sell the ISO regen to him...

[mansr]

4 minutes ago, Superdad said:

That means a lot in the face of the barrage that my act of cancelling Amir's order (for personal reasons) has caused

You know, you could have spared yourself all that grief by simply selling Amir the damn thing.

[mansr]

39 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

This is for those who like challenges.

 

 

This is 15 minutes long, the phosphor of the scope never deleting. Btw mind the horizontal scale which is meant to show the length of the audio word (so this is the output of Jabbr's DAC, so to speak).

 

The below shows that this is 13ps of p-p jitter but it's a moot thing because I use the trace width to measure, and the width is 13ps "thick" and can't be more thin. Call it scope limits. But this should really be well under 1ps p-p.

 

 

Btw this is not from USB isolation; this is the internal isolation in I2S.

One of these days I will make some plots from USB itself, behind the USB isolation (our own).

 

People, if this would be so easy to measure, why don't we see these plots anywhere from manufacturers ?

Answer : not per se because the outcome is bad. But the gear is expensive ...

 

Here's a bonus :

 

 

210ps p-p of jitter. What changed ? this is without in-DAC isolation ... (this is data impeded jitter)

What exactly is being measured in those graphs? What scope are you using?

[jabbr]

24 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

I would be careful with this.

The FPGA shows how much jitter ?

 

We can measure that

 

So there is this whole field of digital phase comparison needed for phase array radars, GPS systems, SDR (software defined radar) and these are one of the main drivers of high end FPGA. 

 

In any case John Miles is a real guy who made a real system that's been tested against everything from HP née Agilent nee Keysight and got picked up by Microsemi so at least some people think he knows what he's doing

 

 

[rickca]

14 minutes ago, Superdad said:

I'll call this lost weekend something else

None of your customers consider this a lost weekend.  You're doing what we want.

[Superdad]

19 minutes ago, mansr said:

You know, you could have spared yourself all that grief by simply selling Amir the damn thing.

 

When I was in grade school I knew I would get teased and beat up later on--but I still did not give the bully my lunch money.

 

(Besides, this thread seems to be great for sales! )

[pam1975]

@superdad I bought one product from you a while ago, that's it. I'm not a cult follower. But you are a class act in the way you run your business. I can just tell from every thread I've seen you participate to even though I only exchanged emails with you twice.

I've run a business myself for 20 years and I fired 2 clients in my career because they were jerks. Very polite jerks mind you. Every time they shook my mind I had to count my fingers to make sure they were still there.

As a business man, you are entitled to do business with whomever you want and whatever names other people call you, let it slide. Maybe you are dick in real life. Or maybe they are, but they just don't know it. Leadership is about knowing when to shut up. You've stated your stance, move on - really nothing more to add at this point, right?

 

Now, about making $$, GOOD ON YOU! you are running a business, not some sort of not for profit.

 

as a french dude and an engineer for that matter, I'm just glad one cannot "measure" wine and I still have my taste as the main way of qualifying how I feel about one grand cru vs the other. And to date that is still the way every sommelier on this planet works.

 

I wish you keep up the 70 hour workweek for as long as possible and make more dough for the family. 

[jabbr]

3 hours ago, lmitche said:

That's right, I forgot that for some they need to see one of these: 

Before they trust their ears.  Have fun with that!

If you aren't going to trust your ears you need one of these:

and 

 

[plissken]

2 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

 Is the marketplace not filled with audio companies offering rafts of afforable-to-pricey add-ons, cables, sources, DACs, etc. for which no measurements are offered and for which far more outrageous claims of SQ improvement are made? Where is your outrage over them? 

 

 

 

You may want to take a look at the two threads where I tested $699 3 foot Ethernet and $340 12 foot Ethernet cable.

 

What DAC can I order, in conjunction with a regenerator, to hear this?

[Daudio]

1 hour ago, jabbr said:

and 

 

Uh, oh, could it be another "My meter is Bigger then Yours" battle brewing ? 

[christopher3393]

33 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

You may want to take a look at the two threads where I tested $699 3 foot Ethernet and $340 12 foot Ethernet cable.

 

What DAC can I order, in conjunction with a regenerator, to hear this?

 

...admit it... 

 

 

 

 

[wgscott]

What would be of great benefit would be to depersonalize this issue.

 

If folks could agree to do that, then the next step would be to determine what measurement or set of measurements both "sides" of the debate could agree in advance would be decisive either way.

 

The third step would be to find some competent, neutral party that has access to the equipment, to cary out the experiments.

[Fitzcaraldo215]

26 minutes ago, wgscott said:

What would be of great benefit would be to depersonalize this issue.

 

If folks could agree to do that, then the next step would be to determine what measurement or set of measurements both "sides" of the debate could agree in advance would be decisive either way.

 

The third step would be to find some competent, neutral party that has access to the equipment, to cary out the experiments.

Quite logical and rational.  Except, that is not the issue here.  Is it ever at CA?  Amir wishes to purchase and to make measurements of the ISO, as he did with the original Regen.  Alex says he will not sell to Amir for undisclosed PERSONAL reasons, simultaneously claiming he is OK with measurements of any kind.  

 

So, the disconnect is not a logical one and is seemingly more complex, based on secret inside information, difficult as that may be to fathom.  

 

So, kids, stay close to your radios.  Will Amir snatch an ISO Regen and submit it to his torturous measurements?  Or, will Sir Alex, and his noble Squire Swenson, save the galaxy from the evil bully and troublemaker?

 

[Ralf11]

5 hours ago, mav52 said:

Got to agree.  If a manufacturer has confidence in their product, what better way than have a third party with the necessary instruments "check it out".   Results are just that, results.

 

Independent of any measurements, how they are taken, with what, or by whom...

I asked about a return privilege because that would allow me to listen to this device with my DAC, in my system and return it if the rather impressive claims are not met.

 

As one person noted, there is nothing on the web site stating a return is allowed.  That suggests a lack of confidence in the product.

 

 

[Daudio]

22 minutes ago, Fitzcaraldo215 said:

Alex says he will not sell to Amir for undisclosed PERSONAL reasons

 

Careful, you're getting too presidential there, and not helping anything   Alex clearly stated his reasons a number of times, in this thread !!

 

It pays to pay attention 

[Tone Deaf]

27 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

As one person noted, there is nothing on the web site stating a return is allowed.  That suggests a lack of confidence in the product.

 

 

Not quite true.  Pretty clear for the ISO Regen.

 

https://uptoneaudio.com/products/iso-regen

"As with all UpTone products, the ISO REGEN is sold with a 30-day, money-back, satisfaction guarantee. So just buy it and try it! "

[k-man]

4 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

If I remember correctly, he sells Berkeley Audio Design.

I checked Amir's website (the one other than ASR) to see which companies he represents. As ambiguous as a M Night Shyamalan movie. 

 

[Superdad]

22 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

As one person noted, there is nothing on the web site stating a return is allowed.

 

I am starting to think that the measurements this crowd needs is of their eyesight!  From the very first day the ISO REGEN product page went up, my 30-day, money-back-satisfaction guarantee has been right there in bold type in at the top of the page.  

We don't even charge any restock fee as others do, and mostly I look the other way when someone forgets to include all the items or scratches the case of the device.  (We hardly ever get returns so its not a big deal.)

 

22 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 That suggests a lack of confidence in the product.

 

Good grief.

 

[jabbr]

56 minutes ago, wgscott said:

What would be of great benefit would be to depersonalize this issue.

 

If folks could agree to do that, then the next step would be to determine what measurement or set of measurements both "sides" of the debate could agree in advance would be decisive either way.

 

The third step would be to find some competent, neutral party that has access to the equipment, to cary out the experiments.

First step -- absolutely necessary

 

Second step -- Entirely agree -- at the very least we might discuss & agree upon a reasonable set of tests

 

Third step is harder because the person or organization doing the testing needs to be funded and therin lie the issues with impartiality 

[jabbr]

1 hour ago, Daudio said:

 

Uh, oh, could it be another "My meter is Bigger then Yours" battle brewing ? 

Haha just giving a hint at what degree of difficulty these tests might entail  

[mansr]

1 hour ago, wgscott said:

What would be of great benefit would be to depersonalize this issue.

Alex made it personal. He can fix that by selling a device to Amir.

[SWL3600]

It's not that hard. Buy it and if you don't like it, return the damn thing within 30 days. Get your money back and buy some cable elevators or something so we can make fun of you.

[The Computer Audiophile]

27 minutes ago, k-man said:

I checked Amir's website (the one other than ASR) to see which companies he represents. As ambiguous as a M Night Shyamalan movie. 

 

 

Ah thanks for the link. 

 

It seems he is fine making a buck off very expensive products and will not publish measurements of those products (even though he has easy access), but he is more than willing to hurt another's business by publishing mis-measurements on more than one occasion. 

 

This doesn't pass the smell test for those seeking objective, unbiased data without a hidden agenda. 

[Jud]

1 hour ago, wgscott said:

What would be of great benefit would be to depersonalize this issue.

 

If folks could agree to do that, then the next step would be to determine what measurement or set of measurements both "sides" of the debate could agree in advance would be decisive either way.

 

The third step would be to find some competent, neutral party that has access to the equipment, to cary out the experiments.

 

We've already had independent blind testing by two people (I was one) in which the test design most closely resembling the production version of the ISO Regen was decisively chosen in a few minutes of listening.

 

If we don't get analog DAC output measurements (or for that matter digital input measurements) to explain this, then where are we?  Should we conclude the two blind testers confidently deluded themselves so strongly in the same direction (the same direction as two non-blinded listeners, including the designer)?  Or in that case would we credit the blind test results over the lack of confirming measurements and say maybe the thing works, but we're not sure how?

[jabbr]

2 minutes ago, Jud said:

We've already had independent blind testing by two people (I was one) in which the test design most closely resembling the production version of the ISO Regen was decisively chosen in a few minutes of listening.

 

So, assuming this is valid with a larger number of evaluators, a proper measurement would be able to distinguish something that is audible. eg if there are phase error differences that would lend support to the proposition that altering phase error is audible.

[Superdad]

20 minutes ago, mansr said:

Alex made it personal. He can fix that by selling a device to Amir.