Amir at ASR claims Uptone won't sell the ISO regen to him...

[mav52]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

 

Independent of any measurements, how they are taken, with what, or by whom...

I asked about a return privilege because that would allow me to listen to this device with my DAC, in my system and return it if the rather impressive claims are not met.

 

As one person noted, there is nothing on the web site stating a return is allowed.  That suggests a lack of confidence in the product.

 

 

I guess you didn't read this.

 

https://uptoneaudio.com/products/iso-regen

"As with all UpTone products, the ISO REGEN is sold with a 30-day, money-back, satisfaction guarantee. So just buy it and try it! "

[mav52]

6 hours ago, firedog said:

Alex specifically stated he is willing to have third parties evaluate his product and named some of them. 

He said he isn't willing to sell his product to Amir as he feels Amir made out of line (my phrasing) comments about Alex on his forum.  He also said he doesn't care if a third party sends Amir an IsoRegen.

So your point seems moot. 

 

"Results are results". The question remains, how were they arrived at and what do they mean, if anything. The answer to that question isn't always clear 

I guess we will never know.

[cpvniii]

22 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

Hogwash Fitz.  This has zero to do with measurements (some of which I already posted).  I explained to Amir why I want nothing to do with him, his agenda, his nastiness, or his money.

(for those who want to know, my reply is here: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?23015-Who-s-buying-the-UpTone-Audio-ISO-REGEN&p=453954&viewfull=1#post453954)

 

I don't care if he gets a ISO REGEN from someone else.  It just won't be from me.

 

By the way, I don't hear any drumbeats for measurements of products and devices from all sorts of other firms, either at WBF or at that ASR graveyard Amir presides over with his sycophants.

Superdad: Few have ever cranked up a going concern from nothing and grown it over a number of years, iterations, new product development and roll out, managing cash flow, distribution, taxes etc. I have used your product and I like it. I can here the difference. I own 4 Dacs and all of them sound better "to me".But my real point here is a rather simple but an oft overlooked one.

The real power in any business is to be at a point where you can choose who you will do business with.

Congratulations. You are there. I wouldn't do business with anyone who wished me and my company harm.

It doesn't matter who is right and who is wrong. That is 3rd grade stuff. What truly matters in life is what is right....and what is wrong. And furthermore, just because someone has the right to be an ass doesn't mean it is the right thing to do. Carry on.

[skatbelt]

@Superdad / Alex please opt out of this thread. A lot of people are making a fool out of themselves and if you keep reacting you will only add fuel to the fire. Save your energy for all the good stuff you and John have been doing. I am sure that 99% of this community is in your camp anyway!

[Jud]

18 minutes ago, jabbr said:

 

So, assuming this is valid with a larger number of evaluators, a proper measurement would be able to distinguish something that is audible. eg if there are phase error differences that would lend support to the proposition that altering phase error is audible.

 

That's what the ideal state would be - if measurements such as you and John have proposed (or that @PeterStmay have already done or be contemplating) would turn out to correspond to the blind test preference.

[cpvniii]

14 hours ago, Keith_W said:

How ugly this thread has become. It only requires the same protagonists to jump in and all hell breaks loose. This kind of comment: 
 

 

 

... has no place in a community of polite hobbyists. It is nothing more than a groundless vicious personal attack. Even if measurements were available that shows the product doing nothing, it would merely change the remark from a groundless personal attack to a mere personal attack. I would urge the poster to retract his statement and apologize. 

 

I respect both Alex and Amir, but in this case I have to support Alex's right to choose whom he sells his equipment to. As for Amir - whether or not you agree with him, or what he does, he is always polite and courteous, even to his critics. I just wish that some of his supporters behaved in the same way. 

Oh....it is maybe worse at What's Best Forum.

[Superdad]

30 minutes ago, skatbelt said:

@Superdad / Alex please opt out of this thread. A lot of people are making a fool out of themselves and if you keep reacting you will only add fuel to the fire. Save your energy for all the good stuff you and John have been doing. I am sure that 99% of this community is in your camp anyway!

 

Thank you.  You are quite right.  I already said my peace this morning and yesterday here.  So this thread can carry on in whatever direction it pleases.  

Good day everyone...

[jabbr]

35 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

That's what the ideal state would be - if measurements such as you and John have proposed (or that @PeterStmay have already done or be contemplating) would turn out to correspond to the blind test preference.

If the measurements don't correspond to a valid audible difference then they are irrelevant for our purposes here. 

[Daudio]

59 minutes ago, jabbr said:

So, assuming this is valid with a larger number of evaluators

 

I have seen it valid on the previous model; much larger number of evaluators.

 

 

59 minutes ago, jabbr said:

a proper measurement would be able to distinguish something that is audible

 

I suggest that "suggest" is a better word here 

 

[STC]

9 minutes ago, jabbr said:

valid audible difference

 

but to validate audible difference requires taking blind tests which are flawed according some ( not me ). 

 

It is is is no win situation. Anyway, reading from Superdad's reply he admitted the measurements would shows spikes in jitter. Can that change the sound? Or can Amir explain why the superior eye test not showing the spikes. 

 

Again, it all about flavor vs accuracy. 

[Ralf11]

2 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

I am starting to think that the measurements this crowd needs is of their eyesight!  From the very first day the ISO REGEN product page went up, my 30-day, money-back-satisfaction guarantee has been right there in bold type in at the top of the page.  

We don't even charge any restock fee as others do, and mostly I look the other way when someone forgets to include all the items or scratches the case of the device.  (We hardly ever get returns so its not a big deal.)

 

 

Good grief.

 

 

I am glad you added that to your web site.

 

 

[plissken]

1 hour ago, mav52 said:

I guess you didn't read this.

 

https://uptoneaudio.com/products/iso-regen

"As with all UpTone products, the ISO REGEN is sold with a 30-day, money-back, satisfaction guarantee. So just buy it and try it! "

 

I found the problem:

 

google "30-day site:uptoneaudio.com" (without the quotes) Look at the number of absolute results that come back. 

 

The standard of practice is to have  site map, at the least, at the bottom of the page that would include items like support, contact us, returns, etc... So when I mentioned there was no verbiage on returns, I was indeed correct. 

 

I've been on the site in the past and couldn't find anything about a trial period. It also bears repeating, I'm always up for a get together and try some permutations out. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, plissken said:

The standard of practice is to have  site map, at the least, at the bottom of the page that would include items like support, contact us, returns, etc... 

 

I've been on the site in the past and couldn't find anything about a trial period. It also bears repeating, I'm always up for a get together and try some permutations out. 

 

Wow, when you have it out for someone you really dig deep :~)

[plissken]

5 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Wow, when you have it out for someone you really dig deep :~)

 

Yep. I have no idea where I pull all these crazy concepts from....

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, plissken said:

 

Yep. I have no idea where I pull all these crazy concepts from....

 

 

Perhaps, you misunderstood what I was getting at. The concept isn't crazy, but it's so far away form the context of this conversation and you also raise it as if to push off responsibility on to Alex, for something you didn't find on your own. In other words, it's a sideshow that would only be brought up by someone who wasn't a fan of someone else. 

[plissken]

8 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Perhaps, you misunderstood what I was getting at. The concept isn't crazy, but it's so far away form the context of this conversation and you also raise it as if to push off responsibility on to Alex, for something you didn't find on your own. In other words, it's a sideshow that would only be brought up by someone who wasn't a fan of someone else. 

 

No, I'm pointing out that a online retailer is simply missing some site basics. I'm not pushing anything off. I tried the Schitt Wyrd because they list the returns policy for each product on the respective page. It didn't do anything for my Emotiva Stealth DC-1 so it went back. Same with the AQ Jitterbug. I'm thinking the DC-1 isn't powered by the USB bus and the C-Media in it can be externally powered. 

 

I wanted to try the Uptone Regen awhile ago but didn't see anything about what happens if it didn't do anything for me. Yes I could have called the manufacturer or just deal with an outfit that makes that conspicuous. 

 

Kudos to Alex/Uptone putting the 30 day MBG on their product page BTW. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

5 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

No, I'm pointing out that a online retailer is simply missing some site basics. I'm not pushing anything off. I tried the Schitt Wyrd because they list the returns policy for each product on the respective page. It didn't do anything for my Emotiva Stealth DC-1 so it went back. Same with the AQ Jitterbug. I'm thinking the DC-1 isn't powered by the USB bus and the C-Media in it can be externally powered. 

 

I wanted to try the Uptone Regen awhile ago but didn't see anything about what happens if it didn't do anything for me. Yes I could have called the manufacturer or just deal with an outfit that makes that conspicuous. 

 

Kudos to Alex/Uptone putting the 30 day MBG on their product page BTW. 

 

Cool. No worries. 

[sdolezalek]

One of the things I find quite amusing about this whole thread is that, if my memory serves me correctly, a lot of the folks who are taking the "there is no difference unless I can measure it -- science is absolute" stance here are the same ones who have expressed strong dopubts about Climate Change in prior posts on CA.  I guess "opinions" are ok in other areas of science, but audio is such a settled science that there can't possibly be an improvement we can't readily measure...

[Jud]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

 

I am glad you added that to your web site.

 

 

 

If by "adding" you mean "posted prominently on the product page ever since the page first appeared," then you are correct.

[Jud]

8 minutes ago, sdolezalek said:

One of the things I find quite amusing about this whole thread is that, if my memory serves me correctly, a lot of the folks who are taking the "there is no difference unless I can measure it -- science is absolute" stance here are the same ones who have expressed strong dopubts about Climate Change in prior posts on CA.  I guess "opinions" are ok in other areas of science, but audio is such a settled science that there can't possibly be an improvement we can't readily measure...

 

I am not certain your memory serves you correctly.  On the other hand, it's quite possible I'm the one with the faulty memory.

[sdolezalek]

1 minute ago, Jud said:

 

I am not certain your memory serves you correctly.  On the other hand, it's quite possible I'm the one with the faulty memory.

It isn't a 100% alignement, but you for example, if I remember correctly, are willing to accept the consensus of climate science and stepped up here to say that you clearly hear a difference that the "measurement" addicts seem to suggest cannot exist.  But the folks I was referring to were those on the other side of the equation; skeptics on climate but absolutists here about the science/measurement telling all.

 

My own view is that unless we pay attention to both (personal observation and science) either one alone can lead us astray. 

[Jud]

Just now, sdolezalek said:

stepped up here to say that you clearly hear a difference that the "measurement" addicts seem to suggest cannot exist.

 

Importantly, I clearly heard it in a blind test.

 

Several folks pushing for measurements in this thread have, in other threads involving measured differences, said the real acid test would be the ability to tell a difference in a blind test.  Here we have that.

 

I understand (and have already noted I agree) that the ideal situation is valid listening tests and measurements confirming each other, since that gives us a path toward real reproducible improvement.

[wgscott]

50 minutes ago, sdolezalek said:

One of the things I find quite amusing about this whole thread is that, if my memory serves me correctly, a lot of the folks who are taking the "there is no difference unless I can measure it -- science is absolute" stance here are the same ones who have expressed strong dopubts about Climate Change in prior posts on CA.  I guess "opinions" are ok in other areas of science, but audio is such a settled science that there can't possibly be an improvement we can't readily measure...

 

Don't know if I am included in this, but if so, your memory couldn't have served you more incorrectly.

 

I've never come across an audio phenomenon that I could hear but not measure, although I have seen plenty of measurable differences I was unable to hear.

 

My belief in the veracity of climate change claims is based upon the data, i.e, multitudes of independent and objective measurements.  The so-called climate skeptics seem to base most of their claims on ad homonym attacks, much like audiophile subjectivists, and tend to be on the take from fossil fuel companies, perhaps in analogy to some subjectivist reviewers.

 

I have no opinion one way or the other about USB doohickies, but by default I would tend toward the null hypothesis until presented with evidence to the contrary.

[pkane2001]

12 minutes ago, sdolezalek said:

you clearly hear a difference that the "measurement" addicts seem to suggest cannot exist

 

What baffles me to no end is how so many folks get convinced that measurement couldn't possibly be useful in predicting audio performance. I'm sure that some snake oil peddlers would like you to believe that. But objective, repeatable measurement is key to testing the performance of any electronic device. This is overwhelmingly the practice of all competent electronics engineers and designers.... except, it seems, in hi-end audio.

 

If the device 'cannot be measured' or 'the measurements don't demonstrate what it does' then how do you know that it does anything positive to the signal? To me, this is a warning sign that the manufacturer or the designer don't know what they are doing or trying to hide something. Especially if they tell me that I wouldn't understand even if they tried to explain it. Try me: I'm not that dense.

 

Being able to pick the device out in a blind test is a good start, but that only proves there is a difference. Whether the difference is for the better or worse will often depend on the preferences of the listener.

 

My approach is to research a device before I buy it. I want to understand what it does, how it does it, and whether there is some objective proof (in the form of measurements) that the device achieves these goals. Obviously, I also would like to hear that others found that the device works, producing the advertised effect. Does this make me a "measurement addict"? So be it.

[jacquesr]

On 2017-06-02 at 7:20 PM, Superdad said:

 

Hogwash Fitz.  This has zero to do with measurements (some of which I already posted).  I explained to Amir why I want nothing to do with him, his agenda, his nastiness, or his money.

(for those who want to know, my reply is here: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?23015-Who-s-buying-the-UpTone-Audio-ISO-REGEN&p=453954&viewfull=1#post453954)

 

I don't care if he gets a ISO REGEN from someone else.  It just won't be from me.

 

By the way, I don't hear any drumbeats for measurements of products and devices from all sorts of other firms, either at WBF or at that ASR graveyard Amir presides over with his sycophants.

Wow Alex. Thanks a lot - I learned a bunch of new words in just one posts.

You know words. You have the best words.

Just like this guy: