MQA is Vaporware

[rickca]

26 minutes ago, MikeyFresh said:

He is there due to his deep ties to the record labels

When Mike Jbara moves on to his next job we'll know that MQA is toast.  I don't think he would be fired ... look at the long list of partners who decided to implement MQA.  But if the potential monetary rewards of his position start to lag, I'd imagine he would look for another challenge.  I'm trying to be polite. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

26 minutes ago, Paul R said:

Here is where I get a little lost.  MQA is, and always has been about making money.

I'm all for making money on one's work, but I don't want to pay and get nothing in return or even pay to have something worse than I have now.

 

I'm willing to accept trade-offs that actually trade something of value. I originally liked MQA because I thought it had the chance of getting the labels to remaster more content that would otherwise be left collecting dust. I accepted this trade off because I and other consumers would actually get something unavailable without MQA. This had nothing to do with the technology of MQA but rather because of it labels would remaster content for sound quality. In a sense, a ton of white glove treatment for albums that needed it. 

 

Kind of like I was willing to accept DRM and inconvenience of SACD because I thought at the time that labels would remaster albums etc... The reality was much more like the MQA reality. Right-click convert to MQA / SACD from whatever the original source is/was.

 

Free, open and flexible > right-click > convert to > proprietary, restricted, and  rigid. 

 

 

 

[rickca]

11 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I originally liked MQA because I thought it had the chance of getting the labels to remaster more content that would otherwise be left collecting dust.

Are there actually albums that have become available as MQA that are not available as high res as well?

[The Computer Audiophile]

13 minutes ago, rickca said:

Are there actually albums that have become available as MQA that are not available as high res as well?

 Ah yes, the MQA album (vinyl) https://www.stereophile.com/content/recording-april-2018-fairytales-original-master-edition-mqa

 

Oh wait, not that type of album. I'm unsure of the answer to your question but if I had to guess based on my experience I'd say there isn't an album available in MQA only that wasn't intentionally pulled form the market like the 2L stuff. 

[Hugo9000]

@The Computer Audiophile With regard to SACD, Sony gave "white glove" treatment to 54 RCA Living Stereo releases on Hybrid SACD.  There were supposedly plans to continue the series, but sales were inadequate or whoever at Sony loved classical music died or otherwise moved on, or it was a casualty of the Sony-Toshiba War for HD Video.  I think the last batch of titles in the Living Stereo SACD project were released in late 2006, so it's likely that Sony decided to divert funds from that project to help bankroll the push for Blu-ray over Toshiba's HD DVD.  I don't believe any other older (originally analogue) recordings from any other labels received any special treatment, but since SACD was a Sony format, it made sense for them to use their most prestigious back-catalogue items to promote it.

 

Of course, other labels used the format to release completely new recordings, with the benefit of multichannel.  Most are Hybrid SACD, so the benefits of superior mastering translate to better than average quality sonics on the CD layer, which owners could rip to hard drives just like any regular CD.  So there's that haha  Of course every collector of SACDs is aware that not all were pure DSD on the digital end, many or most were converted from some form of PCM.

 

At any rate, I personally wouldn't compare Sony to MQA, as Sony has at least provided some actual value to music lovers through the decades with technology, music, and audio equipment.  MQA has provided nothing but empty promises (white glove, documenting and analyzing the original equipment chain and applying individualized corrections, etc.) and dishonest realities.

 

 

[KeenObserver]

Seems like Lee got flustered and left the room.

[The Computer Audiophile]

12 minutes ago, Hugo9000 said:

@The Computer Audiophile With regard to SACD, Sony gave "white glove" treatment to 54 RCA Living Stereo releases on Hybrid SACD.  There were supposedly plans to continue the series, but sales were inadequate or whoever at Sony loved classical music died or otherwise moved on, or it was a casualty of the Sony-Toshiba War for HD Video.  I think the last batch of titles in the Living Stereo SACD project were released in late 2006, so it's likely that Sony decided to divert funds from that project to help bankroll the push for Blu-ray over Toshiba's HD DVD.  I don't believe any other older (originally analogue) recordings from any other labels received any special treatment, but since SACD was a Sony format, it made sense for them to use their most prestigious back-catalogue items to promote it.

 

Of course, other labels used the format to release completely new recordings, with the benefit of multichannel.  Most are Hybrid SACD, so the benefits of superior mastering translate to better than average quality sonics on the CD layer, which owners could rip to hard drives just like any regular CD.  So there's that haha  Of course every collector of SACDs is aware that not all were pure DSD on the digital end, many or most were converted from some form of PCM.

 

At any rate, I personally wouldn't compare Sony to MQA, as Sony has at least provided some actual value to music lovers through the decades with technology, music, and audio equipment.  MQA has provided nothing but empty promises (white glove, documenting and analyzing the original equipment chain and applying individualized corrections, etc.) and dishonest realities.

 

 

Thanks for the comments. I don't disagree and I shouldn't have made it seem like I equate SACD to MQA. I believe there are many similarities in how it turned out and how many unscrupulous grifters converted content into SACDs that had no business being on SACDs (all the 44.1 PCM conversions). 

 

 

[new_media]

1 hour ago, rickca said:

Are there actually albums that have become available as MQA that are not available as high res as well?

 

Lemonade by Beyoncé is available in MQA on Tidal. As far as I know, the only lossless releases are on CD and 16/44 FLAC, also on Tidal.

 

I seem to remember Icky Thump being available in MQA as well, but it isn't currently available so maybe I'm mistaken. It has never had a hi-res release AFAIK.

 

ETA: Looks like I remember correctly, but it has been removed. Also looks like the MQA was based on the redbook master anyway. https://community.roonlabs.com/t/tidal-master-mqa-icky-thump-album-not-24bit/24010

 

[firedog]

9 hours ago, Lee Scoggins said:

 

What a crock!  There was no bad behavior at RMAF (well, outside of Derek's unnecessary desk pounding but he's not part of MQA).  Chris presented some very biased slides under the guise of being objective and the MQA team called him on some key points.  He then got flustered and left the room before there could be any Q&A discussion.

I must have watched a different video. Your synopsis has little connection to the reality of the tape.

[mansr]

7 hours ago, new_media said:

Lemonade by Beyoncé is available in MQA on Tidal. As far as I know, the only lossless releases are on CD and 16/44 FLAC, also on Tidal.

That album was mastered at 44.1 kHz, which is also the source of the MQA version. There probably exists a true 24-bit "crown jewel" deep in a vault somewhere.

[danadam]

22 hours ago, Lee Scoggins said:

Your tinnitus may be impacting the frequency range but recent research suggests we hear timing distortions down to 5 microseconds well into our 70s.  Maybe you are doing okay on hearing the timing elements.

5 µs, so still well within the limits of what RBCD is capable of.

[new_media]

56 minutes ago, mansr said:

That album was mastered at 44.1 kHz, which is also the source of the MQA version. There probably exists a true 24-bit "crown jewel" deep in a vault somewhere.

The same with Icky Thump, I assume. But knowing Jack White, the studio master may be on an old 4-track he picked up at a garage sale.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Looks like the misinformation is just passed right along. Here's a snippet from theCary Audio press release today.

 

 

 

 

CARY AUDIO AND QOBUZ

 

RALEIGH, NORTH CAROLINA

FEBRUARY 25, 2019

 

 ...

 

Now with Qobuz, the DMS-550 and DMS-600 offer two ways to stream high resolution music. Qobuz offers up to 24 bit/192kHz FLAC while TIDAL offers up to 24 bit/384kHz via MQA. Both the DMS-550 and DMS-600 include full MQA Certification with the latest generation decoders, Roon Ready, AptX™ HD Bluetooth, Airplay, Qobuz, TIDAL, Spotify, vTuner, and so much more. More choices mean more enjoyment!

 

...

 

[randyhat]

I happen to agree with the last sentence of the Cary promo.  "More choices mean more enjoyment".  

[Rt66indierock]

1 hour ago, new_media said:

The same with Icky Thump, I assume. But knowing Jack White, the studio master may be on an old 4-track he picked up at a garage sale.

Jack normally used an 8-track machine but for Icky Thump he used a 16-track machine.

[mansr]

15 minutes ago, Rt66indierock said:

Jack normally used an 8-track machine but for Icky Thump he used a 16-track machine.

One track per bit?

[Jud]

18 hours ago, Lee Scoggins said:

 

What a crock!  There was no bad behavior at RMAF (well, outside of Derek's unnecessary desk pounding but he's not part of MQA).  Chris presented some very biased slides under the guise of being objective and the MQA team called him on some key points.  He then got flustered and left the room before there could be any Q&A discussion.

 

"Who you gonna believe, me or your lyin' eyes?" 🙄

 

Examples of "very biased" slides: Actual measurements showing added noise from MQA (which has to be the case if you understand the MQA filtering); a slide mentioning the speed of the coming 5G standard.

 

That you would consider such plain factual material "very biased" is telling with regard to your willingness to change your thinking when presented with facts.  

[mansr]

Can we go back to bashing Lee MQA now?

[randyhat]

Better idea...just listen to some music.  Forget for awhile about this pissing match, MQA, Hi-Res, charts and graphs....and enjoy listening to music and forget about bashing anything.

[Rt66indierock]

1 hour ago, mansr said:

One track per bit?

 

A 16 track analog recording machine would have a signal to noise ratio of between 70 and 84 dB so 12 ish to 14 bits.

[Rt66indierock]

9 minutes ago, randyhat said:

Better idea...just listen to some music.  Forget for awhile about this pissing match, MQA, Hi-Res, charts and graphs....and enjoy listening to music and forget about bashing anything.

 

I didn't listen when many asked please stop and give it a year. Andy Quint asked for even more time. My late friend Charlie Hansen wanted to hit MQA with everything we got in 2017. I disagreed and said we are going to keep the pressure on MQA and see what breaks. And I want it crystal clear to anyone considering streaming MQA that there will be bad publicity at their launch.

 

PS I've been listening to a lot music as well.

[Jud]

2 hours ago, randyhat said:

I happen to agree with the last sentence of the Cary promo.  "More choices mean more enjoyment".  

 

I would say that you have the opportunity to reproduce the sonic effect of MQA in a non-proprietary manner, whereas it is very possible that if MQA is successful, your choice will be reduced to MQA and MQA only.  Therefore, my conclusion at least is that if you want choices, the best thing to do is not to provide economic support to MQA.

[Ralf11]

Better idea...just listen to some DRM.  Forget for awhile about consumer protection, artistic integrity, MQA, Hi-Res, charts and graphs....and enjoy listening to the money pouring out of your pockets and forget about bashing anything.

[randyhat]

21 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

Better idea...just listen to some DRM.  Forget for awhile about consumer protection, artistic integrity, MQA, Hi-Res, charts and graphs....and enjoy listening to the money pouring out of your pockets and forget about bashing anything.

 

Whatever give you joy.

[KeenObserver]

3 hours ago, mansr said:

Can we go back to bashing Lee MQA now?

 

Funny how every time anyone begins to look closely at MQA the conversation gets sidetracked.

 

But then, that's market shaping in the age of the internet.