A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[davide256]

40 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

There is an index of helpful posts in the first post on page 1. Scroll down and look at the Audiolinux section.

There is no mention of loading music into memory, all references are to load AL into memory/associated helper applications. It would be interesting to see

added but I suspect it would require another 1-2GB of RAM for higher rate DSD files.

[auricgoldfinger]

Here is a link to my review of the new Linear Solution Reference 1 linear power supply:

 

 

And now, back to your regularly scheduled NUC programming.

[BigAlMc]

12 minutes ago, rickca said:

Nope.  I've sent Nuno notes that say precisely the same thing.

 

Thanks Rick,

 

Now back to the NUC show ?

 

Cheers,

Alan

[tapatrick]

52 minutes ago, Chopin75 said:

Ok, sorry bur I am still very confused about this AL running RAM. U mean the entire OS is somehow loaded into RAM, or the software player is loaded into RAM and then also playing the entire music file loaded in RAM? Or just the music file in RAM? How much RAM would one need for that? Sorry if this has been discussed but it is really hard to trace back with 1000s of responses on multiple topics.

Thanks @austinpop for your ongoing cataloguing as it’s hard to keep up these days! 

 

@chopin75 From Audiolinux website. It’s worth studying the home page as there is a wealth of info there. 

 

“From version 1.9.7 you can load the entire system to RAM as an option. For this you need at least 16GB RAM (8 GB for AudioLinux headless). There is the option to save the entire system in "ram mode" “

 

4gb is fine for a headless ramboot endpoint. 

[Johnseye]

4 hours ago, rickca said:

John, can you please remind me what software you're running on these machines?

 

Headless AL/NUC is running RoonBridge and LXQt AL/ITX sCLK is running Roon Server?  And previously LXQt AL/ITX sCLK was running Roon with your DAC directly attached?  Or are you using HQPlayer in this mix?

 

mITX is runing Audiolinux lxqt with Roon Core and HQPlayer Desktop.  I will be trying it with Audiolinux headless, Roon Core and HQPlayer Embedded.

 

NUC is running Headless Audiolinux with HQPlayer NAA.  I have also run it with Roon Bridge and Jussi's HQPlayer NAA.  All in RAM.  Jussi's version is very close to Audiolinux in SQ.  I need to put more time in comparing the two.  Roon Bridge sounds a little thin by comparison.

 

All PCM is upsampled to 352 or 384 and DSD to 512.

[austinpop]

12 minutes ago, davide256 said:

There is no mention of loading music into memory, all references are to load AL into memory/associated helper applications. It would be interesting to see

added but I suspect it would require another 1-2GB of RAM for higher rate DSD files.

 

Hi Dave,

 

While it's possible that some folks have tried to bake music files into the ramroot image, that isn't the way I (or Roy) run. I have a 1TB-ish library, and my Roon DB is about 1.5GB. I've only explored AL with music on a local SSD, or on NAS. Roy, to my knowledge, is consistently using music on the NAS in his NUC-related posts.  I'm not sure about @lmitche, but I'm pretty sure he uses a persistent store of some kind.

 

So in conclusion, the positive reports of AL on various HW are related to the kernel and application loaded into memory - not necessarily music files.

[austinpop]

I just want to remind people that maintaining the index to this thread is a manual task that I have chosen to take on - as a labor of love!

 

It's a best-effort attempt to catalog the various topics that have been covered over the last 2 years. The catalog doesn't drive the discussion, but the other way around. I try to watch out for posts that are particularly useful to add to the index, but I can only do so much.

 

I know from time to time, people express disappointment that the index isn't "good enough," but to that I'd say:

1. it's better than no index!
2. I would welcome contributions of time and effort to help me.

One of the easiest things we can do collectively is that any time you see a post that merits inclusion in the index, drop me a PM. These posts usually garner a high count of upvotes, so they're usually easy to spot.

 

In fact, I've asked Chris @The Computer Audiophile if it's possible to automatically create a sorted list of posts by some criteria (# of upvotes is the most obvious), but it would take work on the back end platform. Until then, any help would be appreciated.

 

And please hold your criticism until you look at the indexes of other threads on CA. Right, what indexes?

[lmitche]

16 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Hi Dave,

 

While it's possible that some folks have tried to bake music files into the ramroot image, that isn't the way I (or Roy) run. I have a 1TB-ish library, and my Roon DB is about 1.5GB. I've only explored AL with music on a local SSD, or on NAS. Roy, to my knowledge, is consistently using music on the NAS in his NUC-related posts.  I'm not sure about @lmitche, but I'm pretty sure he uses a persistent store of some kind.

 

So in conclusion, the positive reports of AL on various HW are related to the kernel and application loaded into memory - not necessarily music files.

My music is on a usb enclosed 4tb hdd attached to the server machine.

[sig8]

42 minutes ago, lmitche said:

My music is on a usb enclosed 4tb hdd attached to the server machine.

Larry: Until yesterday, i had my music on 4tb external Startec USB enclosure. I removed that and used a NAS to serve music files, with AL in RAM, it sounded better, you might want to try.

[jean-michel6]

On 11/23/2018 at 9:50 PM, Dev said:

Roon Core/Roon Bridge vs LMS/Squeezelite vs Roon Core/Squeezelite:

 

With the bigger buffer size (I can only set to 1Gb since my NUC is fitted with 4Gb at the moment), the LMS/Squeezelite just sounds so much better than the Roon Core/Bridge combo. Bigger soundstage, more air around vocals, more of everything. This is without up-sampling anything. Just native resolution directly to the DAC. In all the test the server was NUC8i7BEH and NUC7CJYH as the streamer all running AL.

 

Later moving to RoonCore/Squeezelite combo (thanks to @austinpop), it sounds about the same as LMS/Squeezelite combo. With much better user interface of Roon and far better SQ of the squeezelite, you have the best of both the world but keep in mind PCM is limited to 192KHz and DSD to 64. Also, as @austinpop has noted earlier, sometime it skips to the next song. It didn't happen with LMS/Squeezelite combo.

 

I am yet to throw in HQP in the mix. My earlier experiment with HQP vs Roon, Roon again fell short, even without employing up-sampling but as far a audio memory serves, the LMS(or Roon)/Squeezelite is the best combo so far I have heard in my system.

 

Thank you , very interesting results which confirm the results of Rajiv but in a dual pc setup. 

Were are located the music file library in your system ?

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, sig8 said:

Larry: Until yesterday, i had my music on 4tb external Startec USB enclosure. I removed that and used a NAS to serve music files, with AL in RAM, it sounded better, you might want to try.

Hi Sig8, what do you have between the Nas and the streamer?

 

 

 

 

[sig8]

7 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Hi Sig8, what do you have between the Nas and the streamer?

 

 

 

 

Just a Netgear FS105NA switch powered by SR7. Waiting for better switch. Improvement was not huge, but some, worth taking one more thing out from server. It has only three thing connected, NAS, server, and router.

[MrUnderhill]

2 hours ago, sig8 said:

Larry: Until yesterday, i had my music on 4tb external Startec USB enclosure. I removed that and used a NAS to serve music files, with AL in RAM, it sounded better, you might want to try.

There is a logic to this.

 

My files are on 4 512GB USB sticks attached to a StarTech USB extender, I will try streaming from my Synology NAS.

 

Thx,

 

M

[Dev]

59 minutes ago, jean-michel6 said:

Thank you , very interesting results which confirm the results of Rajiv but in a dual pc setup. 

Were are located the music file library in your system ?

 

My setup in this regard is a bit unorthodox ? I use a mini-itx with JCAT Femto NET card and a 4tb 2.5" hdd attached, running AL and powered by LPS. This box acts a NAS as well as an audiophile switch. The JCAT ports are bridged and connected to the streamer and server.

 

[greenleo]

4 hours ago, davide256 said:

There is no mention of loading music into memory, all references are to load AL into memory/associated helper applications. It would be interesting to see

added but I suspect it would require another 1-2GB of RAM for higher rate DSD files.

If the AL is not using as the server but an NAA, I doubt a music file is totally loaded into the RAM.  On the other hand, if AL is using as a server and local access of the files is utilized, then by making the partition in the USB disk bigger, the RAM in the computer bigger that may hold the complete partition, probably the music files may be loaded into the RAM as well.

 

I've never tried this before.  You may ask Piero directly as he participates in this thread as well.

[Dev]

On 11/23/2018 at 12:50 PM, Dev said:

Roon Core/Roon Bridge vs LMS/Squeezelite vs Roon Core/Squeezelite:

 

With the bigger buffer size (I can only set to 1Gb since my NUC is fitted with 4Gb at the moment), the LMS/Squeezelite just sounds so much better than the Roon Core/Bridge combo. Bigger soundstage, more air around vocals, more of everything. This is without up-sampling anything. Just native resolution directly to the DAC. In all the test the server was NUC8i7BEH and NUC7CJYH as the streamer all running AL.

 

Later moving to RoonCore/Squeezelite combo (thanks to @austinpop), it sounds about the same as LMS/Squeezelite combo. With much better user interface of Roon and far better SQ of the squeezelite, you have the best of both the world but keep in mind PCM is limited to 192KHz and DSD to 64. Also, as @austinpop has noted earlier, sometime it skips to the next song. It didn't happen with LMS/Squeezelite combo.

 

I am yet to throw in HQP in the mix. My earlier experiment with HQP vs Roon, Roon again fell short, even without employing up-sampling but as far a audio memory serves, the LMS(or Roon)/Squeezelite is the best combo so far I have heard in my system.

 

 

Roon/Squeezelite vs LMS/Squeezelite:

 

I decided to do some careful listening this morning between the Roon and LMS, in which Squeezelite was running on the streamer end. After back-n-forth with certain tracks, I preferred LMS. It has bit more airy sound compared to Roon which has slightly thicker color - this was done without any up-sampling and raw bits straight to the PSA DS. Later I decided to try on the Purestream which is optimized for DSD256 playback. Since Roon maxes out at dsd64, I could only compare it with LMS doing dsd256, both using clans-7 sdm filter. This is where LMS made a bigger difference than Roon. I think I will stick with LMS for now but I will dearly miss the usability of Roon - as a long time Roon user, LMS interface sucks big time.

 

All this while my server running AL in standard mode. While I didn't dare to run the server NUC in extreme mode (the stock fan cooling may not be up to it), switching to ramroot on the server made an unexpected incremental bump in SQ - I would say its not subtle and made bad recordings more enjoyable ?

[davide256]

23 minutes ago, greenleo said:

If the AL is not using as the server but an NAA, I doubt a music file is totally loaded into the RAM.  On the other hand, if AL is using as a server and local access of the files is utilized, then by making the partition in the USB disk bigger, the RAM in the computer bigger that may hold the complete partition, probably the music files may be loaded into the RAM as well.

 

I've never tried this before.  You may ask Piero directly as he participates in this thread as well.

Thought about this.

 

You don't need to load an entire track to RAM, if the computer is powerful enough to interleave audio data processing and  audio file read faster than the real time audio rate. At that point you just need sufficient RAM for the "chunk size" read and for output buffer to cover any expected processing/file read variability during track play.

 

[sig8]

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

Hi Sig8, what do you have between the Nas and the streamer?

Also a network isolator on the cable connected between the server and switch.

[lmitche]

2 hours ago, sig8 said:

Just a Netgear FS105NA switch powered by SR7. Waiting for better switch. Improvement was not huge, but some, worth taking one more thing out from server. It has only three thing connected, NAS, server, and router.

Ok, so you had three things connected to the server before and swapped the USB connection to the Startech enclosure for the Ethernet connection to the NAS? So now you have all three connections bridged? Where does the switch connect, the router? How do you have three Ethernet ports on the server?

[greenleo]

19 minutes ago, davide256 said:

Thought about this.

 

You don't need to load an entire track to RAM, if the computer is powerful enough to interleave audio data processing and  audio file read faster than the real time audio rate. At that point you just need sufficient RAM for the "chunk size" read and for output buffer to cover any expected processing/file read variability during track play.

 

The computer is always powerful to interleave audio data processing and audio file read faster than the real time audio rate nowadays.  

 

I think it's you want to know if loading music to the memory is possible.  Technically, any access of local HDD is loaded into the RAM first.  But this is a stupid answer to your question.

[Dev]

1 minute ago, greenleo said:

I think it's you want to know if loading music to the memory is possible.  Technically, any access of local HDD is loaded into the RAM first. 

 

You want to avoid local HDD access during playback and hence avoid page faults as much as possible. The page faults increases latency. Playback s/w like Roon accesses local storage during playback all the time.

[sig8]

9 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Ok, so you had three things connected to the server before and swapped the USB connection to the Startech enclosure for the Ethernet connection to the NAS? So now you have all three connections bridged? Where does the switch connect, the router?

No, I only removed the external USB from the server. I already had the USB-to-RJ45 adapter connected from server to the switch. Switch has total three cables; a cable from server, a cable from NAS, and one cable from the router. On the cable with USB-to-RJ45, I have a network isolater before it connects to switch. At this point my server has just one cable connected to the USB port for ethernet, and one USB out to the DAC, nothing else, except power cables off course.

[the_doc735]

6 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

 

I'm running out of patience with Innuos. in the 15 months I've been in the Innuos ecosystem they've yet to do anything that lifted my SQ - unless you count suggesting I buy the Statement at twice the price. Innuos have suggested they might do something, sometime. Now 15 months later and better library management is all that's offered does not reconcile with my expectations as a flagship customer.

Get a NUC?

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, Dev said:

 

Roon/Squeezelite vs LMS/Squeezelite:

 

I decided to do some careful listening this morning between the Roon and LMS, in which Squeezelite was running on the streamer end. After back-n-forth with certain tracks, I preferred LMS. It has bit more airy sound compared to Roon which has slightly thicker color - this was done without any up-sampling and raw bits straight to the PSA DS. Later I decided to try on the Purestream which is optimized for DSD256 playback. Since Roon maxes out at dsd64, I could only compare it with LMS doing dsd256, both using clans-7 sdm filter. This is where LMS made a bigger difference than Roon. I think I will stick with LMS for now but I will dearly miss the usability of Roon - as a long time Roon user, LMS interface sucks big time.

 

All this while my server running AL in standard mode. While I didn't dare to run the server NUC in extreme mode (the stock fan cooling may not be up to it), switching to ramroot on the server made an unexpected incremental bump in SQ - I would say its not subtle and made bad recordings more enjoyable ?

 

Hi Dev,

 

Very interesting. And I think I agree with you - even with both using squeezelite as the player, LMS seems to sound just a tad more open and relaxed than Roon.

 

My issue is with Roon/squeezelite is the occurrence of skipping. Sometimes it happens 5 seconds into a song - other times not at all. Also, I notice sometimes the track transitions are not gapless. I still have a few things to try:

1. Piero's suggested priority tweaks for rtirq and rtapp
2. playing with the -a parameter. I use "-a 16:4::" I'll see if I can change the behavior by varying these.
   • I did try "-a 499:4::" as to mimic the settings @bibo01 posted. It changed the sound. 16 sounded better. 499 seemed to smooth out the transients. I want to see if a small change can help with the skipping, without affecting the SQ.
   • Bizarre - the things that matter!

Beyond this, it may just be that Roon's LMS emulation is not ready for prime time.

[Chopin75]

1 hour ago, greenleo said:

If the AL is not using as the server but an NAA, I doubt a music file is totally loaded into the RAM.  On the other hand, if AL is using as a server and local access of the files is utilized, then by making the partition in the USB disk bigger, the RAM in the computer bigger that may hold the complete partition, probably the music files may be loaded into the RAM as well.

 

I've never tried this before.  You may ask Piero directly as he participates in this thread as well.

Oh yah, I meant mainly if audiolinux is running as OS in a harddrive where the music is also stored and so the music files can be loaded into RAM but it likely means the music player also needs to be inside the same linux OS? Not sure, since from the audiolinux web and here it talks mainly about Roon and NAA and NAS which means the music files are being processed off site somewhere else so the music files won’t be loaded into the same RAM where the Audiolinux is also loaded? The website stated HQplayer can be embedded in the AL, I presume meaning it is also in the same linux OS, as opposed to  off site via NAA, am I correct?