Article: Guest Editorial: Why did audio stop being about audio?

[Ralf11]

4 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

 

behaving like schoolyard bullies

 

 

do you mean like calling someone you disagree with a narcissist?

[The Computer Audiophile]

Sometimes I wish everyone would get a thicker skin and not be outraged so easily. We have a global community with countless different native languages and personal backgrounds from tons of cultures. Perhaps we should also give people a break and the benefit of the doubt. 
 

 

[kennyb123]

3 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

Until you recognize to what degree this gap exists for both sides, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

 

Most certainly there's been incivility from both sides.  I've been guilty of it myself.  But I only see one side instigating it - and doing so repeatedly.  

 

But maybe you can change my mind..

 

Can you point me to thread or two that's been started by a person on the objectivist side that has been disrupted by one or more persons on the subjectivist side?

 

I can point you to a signature line that begins with the words "The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge..." and then goes on to demand their purchasing decisions.  Can you point me to a signature line from someone on the subjectivist side that demeans the other side this way?

 

I wish I could point you to the posts that Chris had to delete in the "Mains Power Cord.." thread.  I'd love to see evidence of the subjectivist side behaving as uncivilized  - but those posts have probably been deleted too.

 

Actually these were just rhetorical arguments... no need to respond to this.  

[Ralf11]

it sounds like you don't like people to quote top notch engineers in the audio field

 

 

[esldude]

4 hours ago, emcdade said:

Measurements of speakers falls into the same camp for me of:  the measurements only correlate to part of the experience.

 

A Martin Logan Electrostat may measure flat as can be across it's frequency response the same as a dynamic driver speaker could, identically even.  But the way ESL's present the music with their technology is so fundamentally different that it ends up being a completely different experience altogether, despite an identical tonal balance.

 

 

Actually they don't measure close to the same at all.  In a myriad of ways.  So the measurements agree with the listening in this case.  I'm not claiming speaker measurements are a solved problem, but they'll detect an ESL from any box speaker. 

[kennyb123]

10 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

do you mean like calling someone you disagree with a narcissist?

 

I wouldn't have been very nice of me had I called a specific individual a narcissist.  I don't think there's anything wrong with suggesting that certain displayed behaviors might be consistent with how one would expect a narcissist to behave (devaluation of others. anti-social behavior, consistent anger, grandiosity, etc).

[Ralf11]

certain displayed behaviors might be consistent with how one would expect a narcissist to behave - such as denigration of other peoples hearing, their audio system?

 

or believing that one's own hearing is so superior that it allows the slightest detail to emerge in a cloud of grandiosity?

[STC]

7 minutes ago, esldude said:

Actually they don't measure close to the same at all.  In a myriad of ways.  So the measurements agree with the listening in this case.  I'm not claiming speaker measurements are a solved problem, but they'll detect an ESL from any box speaker. 

That is getting harder to do. The Macintosh XRT line array:column speakers are hard to distinguish from the line array electrostatics. 

[STC]

12 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

it sounds like you don't like people to quote top notch engineers in the audio field

 

 

High fidelity reproduction requires experts in different field of audio. Unfortunately even among the best of them there seemed to be disagreement. 

[wgscott]

I think the analogy to religious belief is spot-on.

 

In my own experience, I have received threats of death or grievous bodily harm from two sets of people:

 

(1) Christian fundamentalists, in response to scientific publications regarding theories of the origin of life in journals like Nature, Science and Cell.

 

(2) Audiophiles, in response to things I have posted here.

 

The conclusion is inescapable.

 

 

[kennyb123]

14 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

certain displayed behaviors might be consistent with how one would expect a narcissist to behave - such as denigration of other peoples hearing, their audio system?

 

or believing that one's own hearing is so superior that it allows the slightest detail to emerge in a cloud of grandiosity?

 

I don't think it's appropriate to denigrate a system or another's hearing -- but I don't see it as being totally out of bounds to suggest those as possible reasons why someone might not be hearing what others hear.  I've said before that until a few years my own system hadn't advanced far enough to allow me to hear what many others were reporting.  It still has a ways to go.  This was a fun way to gauge my progress:  https://www.audioaficionado.org/showthread.php?t=46837

 

[Solstice380]

29 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

it sounds like you don't like people to quote top notch engineers in the audio field

 

 

 

If you don't have personal experience and knowledge, you are a poser.  It's what we call hearsay.  Posers (ooops quoters) call it something about a "higher authority".  Those guys who wrote the books actually had the experience.

[Ralf11]

with the exception of Robert harley and his book

[The Computer Audiophile]

... and away we go

[esldude]

45 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

 

Most certainly there's been incivility from both sides.  I've been guilty of it myself.  But I only see one side instigating it - and doing so repeatedly.  

 

But maybe you can change my mind..

 

Can you point me to thread or two that's been started by a person on the objectivist side that has been disrupted by one or more persons on the subjectivist side?

 

I can point you to a signature line that begins with the words "The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge..." and then goes on to demand their purchasing decisions.  Can you point me to a signature line from someone on the subjectivist side that demeans the other side this way?

 

I wish I could point you to the posts that Chris had to delete in the "Mains Power Cord.." thread.  I'd love to see evidence of the subjectivist side behaving as uncivilized  - but those posts have probably been deleted too.

 

Actually these were just rhetorical arguments... no need to respond to this.  

I've had at least a couple or maybe a few such threads.  I specifically asked for the limits on the discussion to keep the discussion cleaner.  And a subjectivist or two just couldn't seem to stand it.  One such thread nearly 1/3 of the thread was a back and forth just trying to get one particular person to let it go in this one case.  The complaint was like all objectivists I was trying to eradicate subjectivism and ruin high end audio.  That complaint didn't even fit the topic of the thread that I could see.  

 

I regularly stay out of some topics due to the desires of the OP.  Just as a matter of courtesy. 

[thyname]

1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

... and away we go

Inevitable 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Let’s all try to be civilized human being talking about entertainment. 
 

 

[kennyb123]

15 minutes ago, wgscott said:

I think the analogy to religious belief is spot-on.

 

In my own experience, I have received threats of death or grievous bodily harm from two sets of people:

 

(1) Christian fundamentalists, in response to scientific publications regarding theories of the origin of life in journals like Nature, Science and Cell.

 

(2) Audiophiles, in response to things I have posted here.

 

The conclusion is inescapable.

 

 

As a Christian I must say that the one group of Christians I avoid getting into it with are the “young earth” proponents - so I got a chuckle out of what you wrote.

 

I’m not exactly sure if I’ve ever met a Christian fundamentalist though but this group comes awfully close per their strict interpretation that “day” in Genesis must be a literal 24 hour day.  I’m in the “day age” camp myself.

[esldude]

How many forum threads on this site (and others) devolve into heated exchanges about whether people actually hear what they say they hear? Without “proof”, listeners are often mocked, insulted and their experiences discredited.

Challenges range from assuming the listener has been influenced by expectation bias (I believe it will sound good, so it does sound good) to faulting his unwillingness to rely on measurements or blind testing.

 

I really dislike this whole start to the opinion piece. 

 

What causes the heated discussion is different people accept different kinds of proof.  I like the truth.  I bet very nearly everyone here does.  But they arrive at it differently.  Some approaches are incompatible with others.  And with many audio matters it is true someone is right and someone is wrong.  No one likes being told they are wrong.  Hard to agree to the truth if incompatible proof is accepted by various groups. 

 

So here is a good example from the same opinion:

Some will say measurements make their case open and shut. But there are too many examples of how measurements fall well short of telling the whole story. There are tube amps with 3% - 5% distortion that sound better to many than amps with far better measurements. Are those products a scam? Vinyl doesn’t measure nearly as well as digital and yet many strongly prefer its sound. Should fans of vinyl be told that turntable, tonearm and cartridge makers are scamming them as well?

 

Are there really tube amps with 3% or more distortion that sound better than great measuring amps?  Yes I would say yes.  However, there are plenty who will dig in and say if it sounds better it is better.  Which can lead to all kinds of disagreements. I'd say it sounds better because of the distortion.  A fundamental problem with being totally subjectivist is believing your preferences in sound always guide you toward fidelity.  So some will then decide distortion isn't telling us all and something else is going on.  And then you get into some who will take advantage of that with all kinds of crazy explanations via which they prey on people's imagination and hearing.  That is where the real truth can clear that up, but some don't want it cleared up as they see it as an attack on themselves.   It isn't an attack to say someone prefers distortion over clean to me.  Yet more often than not it is taken that way.  This is just a tiny single topic with dozens more that have all the same problems.  

 

Now I'll skip over a whole bunch of thinking that I believe most here can fill in on their own if they care to do so. 

 

The last part I dislike in this opinion piece:

 

 

I’m old enough to remember this hobby when people would meet at audio stores to just listen and schmooze. We’ve lost too much of that sense of camaraderie. We may differ on what we like, but we all care about how we experience music.

Whether I’m right or wrong about any of the above, would it hurt to return to the times when people’s disagreements about audio were friendly? Can we stop assailing the reputations of the people who rely on this industry to care for their families and employees? Can we respect the opinions of those who differ with us by not trying to shut them down with ridicule?

 

Though no one is imagine if someone could say, "I remember when we'd sit around the campfire in the evening after a good days hunt.  Have fine meal from the women's gathered food.  We've lost that sense of camaraderie.  I miss those days.   Couldn't we return to those days?  Why do we have to have cars, and houses and grocery stores?  Why can't those city dwellers leave us fine folk alone to live as we please? If our medicine man is okay by us, why do those people have to insist a doctor is better and a medicine man is mostly telling us a story.  We've all experienced what the medicine man does for us. Just respect our opinions. 

 

 

[Ralf11]

18 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Let’s all try to be civilized human being talking about entertainment. 
 

 

 

day-age works - i.e. it is outside the facts and so cannot be falsified (which is pretty much what faith is)

 

a literal day is ... entertainment

[pkane2001]

1 hour ago, kennyb123 said:

Can you point me to thread or two that's been started by a person on the objectivist side that has been disrupted by one or more persons on the subjectivist side?

 

I don't like pointing fingers, but there's this recent thread about a new ethernet switch that a gentleman involved in this very thread decided to join to try to push a subjectivist point of view ...on a decidedly objectivist-minded forum. It wasn't a good showing for him. The whole thing got very nasty.

 

1 hour ago, kennyb123 said:

I can point you to a signature line that begins with the words "The overwhelming majority [of audiophiles] have very little knowledge..." and then goes on to demand their purchasing decisions. 

 

So all objectivists are angry, bitter, evil people because one of them put something you don't like in his signature?

 

[Rt66indierock]

2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

If that's what you believe then you're a larger problem than purely objectivists. For the most part they don't care about personal preference. You seem to have a problem with someone saying it "sounds good" when it measures bad. Who cares if something sounds good to someone. 

 

 

Evidence please. Schedule please. Perhaps you can share it via Google docs. 

 

 

 

Your work involves creating memes?

 

I'm half measurement and half going through my reference albums and recordings. Show me something that measures bad on a Rohde & Schwarz or Audio Precision analyzer and sounds good. It may not sound great, but I've haven't  found  stuff that measures good actually sounds bad. 

 

I've found over the years just my reference albums cause most high equipment fail and my reference recordings get almost everything else. "All the young dudes" is surprisingly hard on high end equipment. How often do you hear "Pet Sounds" at shows? There are reasons you don't.

 

Pretty balanced I would say. 

 

There is little reason to design poorly measuring equipment today. Funny that stuff that measures bad won't play my reference albums and hasn't since I created the list in the eighties.

 

I sometimes introduce myself then ask which audio analyser they use.  I get some interesting answers but more folks this year give a model and we talk about results and issues like ESS "humps". 

 

That the pendulum is swinging away from purely subjective reviews look at the traffic to Audio Science Review. 

 

I spend some time on golf sites to keep things on track. It's why Andy Quint noted I have a lot of sheep pictures.  Golf has an easy authority hierarchy. What kind and how many tournaments have you won? Nine wins will generally put me at near the top of any gold discussion.

[emcdade]

1 hour ago, esldude said:

Actually they don't measure close to the same at all.  In a myriad of ways.  So the measurements agree with the listening in this case.  I'm not claiming speaker measurements are a solved problem, but they'll detect an ESL from any box speaker. 

That’s an ad hominem.  The most frustrating of the replies.

 

There isn’t a measurement I know of that gets to the mechanics of speaker design and whether you prefer the box less (and balls-less imo) sound of an ESL vs. a sometimes boxy but more dynamic sound of drivers moving air.  I’m not talking spinorama stuff or the poor off axis response ESL’s are known for.

[plissken]

2 hours ago, kennyb123 said:

It's been my impression those who believe the facts support their worldview have an underlying confidence that their side will prevail.

 

That's an interesting position:

 

I shoot a 3 part video series about Vlan, SVI, IVR, Trunking, IP Routing, undefined traffic routing, IP Default Gateway. And people love it. It had direct and immediate application to enthusiasts here wanting to segment of their network for vertical applications like putting their audio in it's own cordoned off broadcast domain.

 

But when I push back against cabling and hardware that have nothing to do with audio other than delivering data I all the sudden don't know what the hell I'm talking about. 

[Ralf11]

https://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/04/dishonesty-of-sighted-audio-product.html