Article: Guest Editorial: Why did audio stop being about audio?

[plissken]

Just now, The Computer Audiophile said:

A couple things come to mind here. 
 

0. Is this the backhanded compliment I think it is?don’t have enough time to speak for myself. 

 

Sorry, can't help myself. If it is I'll upvote the post. 

[rickca]

2 hours ago, plissken said:

Taking money for a product that is a data product and not an audio product is happening.

Aren't all digital audio components data products?

[plissken]

1 minute ago, rickca said:

Aren't all digital audio components data products?

 

Ethernet cabling and Switches are strictly data products. They don't care a wit for what's in the packet. They're just their to reliably transport frames/packets to the best of their ability. 

 

They simply aren't audio products. 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

36 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

Well the cheap attempts at discrediting are already underway. I'm either jealous, fearful, or something else at play.

 

But it couldn't be competency. Oh wait:

 

 

So I'm the guy to go to help for on this stuff but anything else I take a position on because it's my bread and butter is suspect. 

 

Can't win for losing here folks. 

 

 

This has absolutely nothing to do with your area of expertise. The article is about the way people respond and reasons for such heated responses to meaningless personal opinions. 
 

Your responses are way out of proportion in my opinion. I can’t figure out why you are so into this battle with people who are having a good time on their own. Why must you piss in their punch bowl?

 

I like to understand those who I communicate with because it helps me learn and see other sides to issues. When I read your posts I keep thinking about that meme about “someone is wrong on the Internet. I can’t go to bed.” That’s the best case. The other possibilities are what I’ve mentioned, fear, jealousy, hatred, or something else. 
 

Nobody spends this much time and dedicates this much emotional capital for no reason. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

Ethernet cabling and Switches are strictly data products. They don't care a wit for what's in the packet. They're just their to reliably transport frames/packets to the best of their ability. 

 

They simply aren't audio products. 

 

Except they do care what’s in the packet. Not in a clocking audio sense, but in many other cases. Try getting a DHCP ACK without looking at a packet. 

[rickca]

4 hours ago, esldude said:

I miss those days.

This whole thing reminds me of Dana Carvey's Grumpy Old Man on SNL.

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, rickca said:

This whole thing reminds me of Dana Carvey's Grumpy Old Man on SNL.

I’ve never seen it but somehow think I know how it goes 😄

[plissken]

Just now, The Computer Audiophile said:

This has absolutely nothing to do with your area of expertise. The article is about the way people respond and reasons for such heated responses to meaningless personal opinions. 
 

Your responses are way out of proportion in my opinion. I can’t figure out why you are so into this battle with people who are having a good time on their own. Why must you piss in their punch bowl?

 

I like to understand those who I communicate with because it helps me learn and see other sides to issues. When I read your posts I keep thinking about that meme about “someone is wrong on the Internet. I can’t go to bed.” That’s the best case. The other possibilities are what I’ve mentioned, fear, jealousy, hatred, or something else. 
 

Nobody spends this much time and dedicates this much emotional capital for no reason. 

 

We seem to be spending the same amount of time on this topic however.

 

What emotional capital? 

 

What fear?

 

What jealousy?

 

What hatred? Manufacturers make claims that it's within my ability to logically rebut. 

 

Again. This niche is simply something that is my day to day bread and butter. So the expenditure is nominal from my POV. I'm just as happy helping you parse a log file, answer questions about networking, shoot some tutorials, or offer rebuttal to outlandish manufacturer claims. It's all the same basket from where I'm standing. 

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, plissken said:

We seem to be spending the same amount of time on this topic however.

This is how I feed my family. 

[rickca]

2 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I’ve never seen it but somehow think I know how it goes 😄

https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/cast/dana-carvey-14886/character/grumpy-old-man-73276

[The Computer Audiophile]

@plissken I should add that I highly respect your knowledge and willingness to help me on matters with which you’re well versed to say the least. 
 

 

[plissken]

27 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Except they do care what’s in the packet. Not in a clocking audio sense, but in many other cases. Try getting a DHCP ACK without looking at a packet. 

 

I'm pretty sure you can't hear a DORA handshake. 

 

Also I need to point out:

 

Switches indeed do not care about what's in the packet. They are L2 frame.

 

A client sits on a switch port in a Vlan (broadcast domain). A DHCP server can sit on that same vlan and when the switch sees it's IP address it will build out it's layer 2 table with a MAC to IP mapping. 

 

The client sends out a broadcast (all F's). Address 224.0.0.12 which is the DHCP multicast address that listens for all F's. At this point DORA happens and if all goes well the client gets an IP address. 

 

The switch was only concerned with the ARP. The session setup after this is solely between the client and the server. They are concerned with whats in the packet.

 

So if you have a L2 only switch you will have to trunk into a either straight up router or a switch that has L3 services that can provide DHCP relay. 

 

When you do ip helper-address and list ip addresses, on a l2/l3 switch you are simply using the routing stack to do a directed broadcast. The L3 switch uses it's routed layer and just like any other ip address routes it to the corresponding server. 

 

 

 

[plissken]

9 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

@plissken I should add that I highly respect your knowledge and willingness to help me on matters with which you’re well versed to say the least. 
 

 

 

And I'm here to tell you that I'm equally well versed on Computer Audio Systems having implemented AVB and AES67. We are talking 150 end points, a layer 2 diameter of 4 in some cases and round trip under 2ms. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, plissken said:

 

And I'm here to tell you that I'm equally well versed on Computer Audio Systems having implemented AVB and AES67. We are talking 150 end points, a layer 2 diameter of 4 in some cases and round trip under 2ms. 

That would make a really cool article. I know I’d love to read it. 
 

But, the issue addressed in the OP’s article wasn’t about expertise. 

[wgscott]

It seems like it is faux outrage about imaginary persecution perpetrated by godless atheist objectivists.

[kennyb123]

32 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

What emotional capital? 

 

What fear?

 

What jealousy?

 

What hatred? Manufacturers make claims that it's within my ability to logically rebut. 

 

 

If Uptone is right about the EtherRegen, doesn’t that mean that John Swenson has proven that he has a better understanding of the harm noise in networks can do to audio systems than you do?  And isn’t your credibility already being harmed due to the fact that so many have reported being delighted by the improvement John’s invention has brought them?  Might calling them liars be what you feel is needed to maintain your credibility as a networking guru? 

[kennyb123]

9 minutes ago, wgscott said:

It seems like it is faux outrage about imaginary persecution perpetrated by godless atheist objectivists.

Please stop.  This is the second time you made me laugh out loud.  How can I continue maintaining my us vs them posture when you shatter my stereotypes this way? 😀

[esldude]

14 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

Never mind the formatting was messed up on this one. 

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14 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

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[ARQuint]

32 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

A couple things come to mind here. 
 

0. Is this the backhanded compliment I think it is?
 

1. I like to let people speak for themselves, for the main reason that I don’t like people to speak for me. I believe my response above was related to a general series of comments not mentioning any entity specifically. Alex thought it was him and stepped in to speak for himself. 
 

2. Some behavior is indefensible. 
 

3. It’s much easier to talk about specifics than generalities, so I’d hate to guess what you’re specifically addressing. 
 

4. A couple people You mentioned lost privileges to use AS due to egregious rule violations. I suppose I could speak for them but then why have rules in the first place and I don’t have enough time to speak for myself. 

 

It's not supposed to be a backhanded compliment - it's meant to be a regular, standard-issue compliment. It's admirable when you call out ad hominem attacks for what they are.

 

They are not, it seems to me, just an assault on someone's professional worth but an attempt to inflame and provoke. Lavorgna? He's a pretty excitable guy, but Lee S? He's really a gentle and thoughtful person who tried to engage in a serious discussion about the merits of you-know-what, and it took a lot of effort on the part of a dedicated few to get him unhinged enough to emit a bad word. If you'd given the sort of dressing-down to several of the worst bullies at the time that you gave to Plissken here, maybe there could be more discussions that stay useful for longer on any number of controversial subjects. As there are, by the way, on plenty of AS threads.

 

So, by all means, keep up what Cogley and crenca would refer to as "finger-wagging." It's what separates us from the the beasts of the forest.

 

Andy

[kennyb123]

28 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

And I'm here to tell you that I'm equally well versed on Computer Audio Systems having implemented AVB and AES67. We are talking 150 end points, a layer 2 diameter of 4 in some cases and round trip under 2ms. 

Wouldn’t noise be something passing along via layer 1?  

[plissken]

1 minute ago, kennyb123 said:

Wouldn’t noise be something passing along via layer 1?  

 

Because Ethernet RJE is heavily isolated it's all transformer coupled at both ends. Also the Ethernet clock is based at 25Mhz. WAAAAY outside of human hearing.  And if I'm doing optics there's no leakage currents. 

 

I've yet to see 60hz mains noise on properly implemented networks. 

 

There is one situation that can cause problems and that is with shielded cabling tied to switch. You can get ground loop hum. UTP is recommended. 

 

BTW my posts in this thread are typical of my posting style. People are often frustrated with the questions that I ask. Look at how some manufactures either squirm, ad hom attack, or on some forums disappear for 18 months after mistakenly saying something they couldn't take back. 

 

[wgscott]

9 minutes ago, esldude said:

 

 

You don't say?

[kennyb123]

3 minutes ago, esldude said:

No, not related to plissken's credibility.

I’m pretty sure that he’s claimed that his years of experience in networking has informed his view that there’s no benefit an audiophile switch can do over any regular switch (my paraphrase - I can dig up quotes if needed).  He’s staked his reputation on this claim.  

[rickca]

Windows and Linux sound different.  I think that's accepted by anyone who has experimented with both.  Tuning either OS can change the sound quality significantly.  None of this stuff has been measured AFAIK.  

 

 

[plissken]

3 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

I’m pretty sure that he’s claimed that his years of experience in networking has informed his view that there’s no benefit an audiophile switch can do over any regular switch (my paraphrase - I can dig up quotes if needed).  He’s staked his reputation on this claim.  

 

Indeed I have. Do you know anyone that will sit and listen to some music without knowing what switch is in play?