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Article: Guest Editorial: Why did audio stop being about audio?

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1 hour ago, Jud said:

What I'm saying in simple terms is that your willingness to make confident statements about all kinds of topics makes it difficult for me to determine whether you really are knowledgeable about many of them.

You'll have to be specific

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6 hours ago, kennyb123 said:


I would do it - providing that I could somehow switch off my innate instinct to feel pressure/stress when test results matter.

 

So the everything matters mantra doesn't include blind evaluation. That gets put out the door.

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6 hours ago, kennyb123 said:


You mentioned seeing problems at level 1 only in one particular situation.  Have any of the devices connected to your networks been extra sensitive to noise?  Or has it just been the typical networking gear you’d find in a typical office or data center?

 

Everything I've deployed, barring config error, or manufacturer defects, has worked. I'm mainly working with HPE and Cisco at the moment. 7000 plus ports to all kinds of devices. Both wired and wireless.

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6 hours ago, kennyb123 said:


And there we have the crux of why our sides are so far apart.  
 

I once worked for a company that had a very simple motto:  “we exist to delight our customers”.  At the end of the day that’s all that really mattered. 
 

 

Gwyneth Paltrows Goop company comes to mind. 

6 hours ago, kennyb123 said:

An awful lot of people are going to take the opposite view that UpTone has more than demonstrated their credibility by how willing folks have been to spend their hard-earned dollars on a switch that is very expensive relative to the generic switches on the market.  How a product is received by the target market  is viewed by many as an excellent measure of credibility.

 

Had the EtherRegen flopped with their target market, might you have used that as grounds to challenge their credibility?  If so then it’s only fair that it work both ways.

Gwyneth Paltrows Goop company comes to mind. 

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2 hours ago, kennyb123 said:

We are talking past each other because you care only that technical claims can be proven.  I only care that my ears and others whom I trust can confirm the claims that have been made.

 

The plural of anecdotal is not data.

 

Ask almost any 5 year old about Santa.

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12 hours ago, esldude said:

How many forum threads on this site (and others) devolve into heated exchanges about whether people actually hear what they say they hear? Without “proof”, listeners are often mocked, insulted and their experiences discredited.


Challenges range from assuming the listener has been influenced by expectation bias (I believe it will sound good, so it does sound good) to faulting his unwillingness to rely on measurements or blind testing.

 

I really dislike this whole start to the opinion piece. 

 

What causes the heated discussion is different people accept different kinds of proof.  I like the truth.  I bet very nearly everyone here does.  But they arrive at it differently.  Some approaches are incompatible with others.  And with many audio matters it is true someone is right and someone is wrong.  No one likes being told they are wrong.  Hard to agree to the truth if incompatible proof is accepted by various groups. 

 

So here is a good example from the same opinion:

Some will say measurements make their case open and shut. But there are too many examples of how measurements fall well short of telling the whole story. There are tube amps with 3% - 5% distortion that sound better to many than amps with far better measurements. Are those products a scam? Vinyl doesn’t measure nearly as well as digital and yet many strongly prefer its sound. Should fans of vinyl be told that turntable, tonearm and cartridge makers are scamming them as well?

 

Are there really tube amps with 3% or more distortion that sound better than great measuring amps?  Yes I would say yes.  However, there are plenty who will dig in and say if it sounds better it is better.  Which can lead to all kinds of disagreements. I'd say it sounds better because of the distortion.  A fundamental problem with being totally subjectivist is believing your preferences in sound always guide you toward fidelity.  So some will then decide distortion isn't telling us all and something else is going on.  And then you get into some who will take advantage of that with all kinds of crazy explanations via which they prey on people's imagination and hearing.  That is where the real truth can clear that up, but some don't want it cleared up as they see it as an attack on themselves.   It isn't an attack to say someone prefers distortion over clean to me.  Yet more often than not it is taken that way.  This is just a tiny single topic with dozens more that have all the same problems.  

 

Now I'll skip over a whole bunch of thinking that I believe most here can fill in on their own if they care to do so. 

 

The last part I dislike in this opinion piece:

 

 

I’m old enough to remember this hobby when people would meet at audio stores to just listen and schmooze. We’ve lost too much of that sense of camaraderie. We may differ on what we like, but we all care about how we experience music.


Whether I’m right or wrong about any of the above, would it hurt to return to the times when people’s disagreements about audio were friendly? Can we stop assailing the reputations of the people who rely on this industry to care for their families and employees? Can we respect the opinions of those who differ with us by not trying to shut them down with ridicule?

 

Though no one is imagine if someone could say, "I remember when we'd sit around the campfire in the evening after a good days hunt.  Have fine meal from the women's gathered food.  We've lost that sense of camaraderie.  I miss those days.   Couldn't we return to those days?  Why do we have to have cars, and houses and grocery stores?  Why can't those city dwellers leave us fine folk alone to live as we please? If our medicine man is okay by us, why do those people have to insist a doctor is better and a medicine man is mostly telling us a story.  We've all experienced what the medicine man does for us. Just respect our opinions. 

 

 

esldude,

 

I just don't think people asking others to accept different kinds of proof is enough for people to get personal with each other. Different kinds of proof just isn't provocative enough.

 

And, as for your last objection, I just don't get it. Any reference to an earlier time is going to bring with it those negative connotations for you? Maybe i misunderstood.

 

Regardless, the last point was my not my primary point so I won't belabor it.

 

Thanks.

 

Joel

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56 minutes ago, plissken said:

You'll have to be specific

 

Sure. You quoted a truth in advertising law to me in this thread. Are we to take it from this that you feel you know something about law?


One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> wi-fi to router -> EtherREGEN -> microRendu -> USPCB -> ISO Regen (powered by LPS-1) -> USPCB -> Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC -> Spectral DMC-12 & DMA-150 -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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3 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Sure. You quoted a truth in advertising law to me in this thread. Are we to take it from this that you feel you know something about law?

 

Only what the FTC site is stipulating:

 

"The FTC looks especially closely at advertising claims that can affect consumers’ health or their pocketbooks – claims about food, over-the-counter drugs, dietary supplements, alcohol, and tobacco and on conduct related to high-tech products "

 

I also like listening to Steve Lehto on YouTube for what that's worth 🙂

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1 minute ago, Jud said:

 

So how many pages has this dragged on now where you avoid saying "I'm not a mindreader so I can't know for a fact they're lying, but I sure as heck will tell you based on my experience and the measurements I've seen that they're wrong"? Why all the twists and turns to avoid that simple distinction, between accusing someone of lying and saying you have good reason to think they are wrong?

 

And if it's simply that you think someone is wrong, why the felt need to say so repeatedly?

 

When they insist they've blocked leakage currents from making it's way to the output of a DAC, but yet they can't show you this..... There's a word I'm looking for that describes this.... Oh yea, it's called a lie. 

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18 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

I don't see Harman, for example, dropping out of the business. In fact, they're a rather large company. And you know I'm also quite scientifically curious about much that is involved with our hobby. So I don't think a small number of people with ideas that might be silly are going to really bother anyone, except those who want to be bothered.

 

Of course. That post was mostly in jest, Jud. I know for a fact that you are curious and willing to consider real evidence. Would be interesting to see how this site contributors break-down on a subjective vs. objective scale. I wouldn't be surprised if it's 100:1 :) 

 

Any AI/data-scientists here that want to do the research?

 

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33 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

When they insist they've blocked leakage currents from making it's way to the output of a DAC, but yet they can't show you this..... There's a word I'm looking for that describes this.... Oh yea, it's called a lie. 

 

When audiophiles will buy beeswax "fuses" or "grounding boxes" filled with rocks and sand, if UpTone simply wished to perpetrate a lie, there'd be far less expensive ways for them to do it.

 

I don't think I've seen the claim that a product of theirs will prevent leakage current at the DAC output specifically, though my impression is a few of their products are designed to prevent leakage current from passing through various points in the circuit.

 

Do you have information that there is no leakage current in audio system circuits, or that a power supply operating in the manner of the UpTone LPS power supplies will create or pass leakage current? Or is your point that this doesn't pass built-in Ethernet transformers? Or that it doesn't audibly affect the analog output?


One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein

Computer, Audirvana -> wi-fi to router -> EtherREGEN -> microRendu -> USPCB -> ISO Regen (powered by LPS-1) -> USPCB -> Pro-Ject Pre Box S2 DAC -> Spectral DMC-12 & DMA-150 -> Vandersteen 3A Signature.

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4 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

As I've said before, it's almost like you think "real" innovation is inversely proportional to "snake oil." If we have more of one we can't have more of the other. I believe you can get all you of both.

 

If the market consistently demands fixes for non-existent problems (USB cables, decrapifiers, linear power supplies, ethernet filters, better sounding fuses, grounding boxes, "improved" DC cables, etc), companies will oblige. As you say the ratio is 100:1 here for subjectivists. The majority that's driving the demand is interested in products solving problems that are mostly imagined rather than seeking real innovation.

 

19 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I have no other way to describe the objectivist interjections at every point, other than a crusade to save people, stop others from making money on what they see is wrong, a fear of the anti-science agenda, hatred of those they don't agree with, and other things. 

 

I'm curious why you keep bringing this up in response to my posts. If you feel that I'm interfering with too many threads here on AS, I'm perfectly willing to go elsewhere. 

 

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19 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I wouldn't be surprised if it's 100:1 either. Not sure what that says about anything, but I'd guess it's a fair assumption.

 

Probably that fears of this place turning into another Hydrogenaudio Forum are unfounded...


Girl, you want it, you take it, you pay the price

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2 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

If the market consistently demands fixes for non-existent problems (USB cables, decrapifiers, linear power supplies, ethernet filters, better sounding fuses, grounding boxes, "improved" DC cables, etc), companies will oblige. As you say the ratio is 100:1 here for subjectivists. The majority that's driving the demand is interested in products solving problems that are mostly imagined rather than seeking real innovation.

 

You can't honestly believe yourself on that can you? Do you really think any of the manufacturers fro which you purchase equipment are going to stop engineering efforts toward innovation and start producing as you call them "decrapifiers?" 

 

If yes, then you're motivated by a fear of losing access to "good" components? I searching for motivation to help me understand.

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

I'm curious why you keep bringing this up in response to my posts. If you feel that I'm interfering with too many threads here on AS, I'm perfectly willing to go elsewhere. 

 

It isn't you specifically.

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

Probably that fears of this place turning into another Hydrogenaudio Forum are unfounded...

 

Correct, those fears are unfounded. 


Founder of Audiophile Style

Announcing Polestar | Quick Community Reviews and Ratings

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3 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

You can't honestly believe yourself on that can you? Do you really think any of the manufacturers fro which you purchase equipment are going to stop engineering efforts toward innovation and start producing as you call them "decrapifiers?" 

 

I can honestly say that I believe this wholeheartedly. Innovation has slowed down to a crawl with much junk and unnecessary devices/enhancements being introduced all the time. As Mans said, true innovation is very hard to find in the noise.

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10 minutes ago, mansr said:

Think of it as signal to noise ratio. In today's hi-fi market, there is so much noise (snake oil) that it is difficult to find the signal (honest products that simply do what they say for a reasonable price). There's a hi-fi store a couple of blocks from my house. They sell only snake oil interconnects (AudioQuest and such), and the salesmen say silly things about silver. This isn't even a "high end" store. If I need an interconnect, my options are to buy bulk cable and mount connectors myself, or I can take my chances on Amazon with the risk of being scammed in the other direction (cheap crap that falls apart if you look at it the wrong way). Do you find this situation desirable? I do not.

 

The situation is probably different around the world. I Minneapolis I can go to a store to get cables at all price points and at all levels of what yo'd call real engineering to snake oil. This isn't a big city with a burgeoning HiFi market either. 

 

Online "anyone" can get cables you'd consider "good" without much risk. Amazon is one place, but monoprice is also good. 

 

I don' think it's as dire as you purport above. 

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

I can honestly say that I believe this wholeheartedly. Innovation has slowed down to a crawl with much junk and unnecessary devices/enhancements being introduced all the time. As Mans said, true innovation is very hard to find in the noise.

 

I can respect that if it's what you truly believe. I don't believe there is evidence to support it, but that's OK. 

 

Do you know when innovation in HiFi proceeded at a faster pace?


Founder of Audiophile Style

Announcing Polestar | Quick Community Reviews and Ratings

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