EtherREGEN: The long development thread. [Some Gen2 dev. pics and update starting on page 92.]

[lwr]

+1

2 hours ago, bobfa said:

Alex, am very interested in your reporting on the EtherREGEN progress.  When I see pictures of the board in the LPS-1  I am intrigued by the complexity of managing the super-caps. I am also amazed at what it does for helping the sound in systems.  I look at the JS-2, and it seems "simple".  I know that is also relative. I appreciate it for what it does.  Both of those devices are priced reasonably for what they do.  (more than)

 

I am getting the vibe that the EtherREGEN is more complicated than some folks might have guessed.  I have also seen several other small (and large) electronics manufacturers talk about parts supply issues and quality.  That part alone is tough work.  Designing and developing test equipment is way above and beyond what others do.

 

I for one appreciate the openness of communications from UpTone.  Thank you much for keeping us updated.  I will be saving my "pennies, nickels, dimes, and quarters".

 

Bob

 

[feelingears]

Alex,

 

Here’s another appreciative customer. I know you don’t take pre-orders but I’m ready to fund your first run. I’m sure there are others too!

[nonesup]

Hi.

I am a firm believer in the benefits that for the SQ, has the decrease of noise in the ethernet lines. My opinion as a potential client (perhaps not shared by all), is that within reason, do not skimp on the pieces that add to the EtherRegen, if they consider that they improve the SQ. Naturally that will increase the price, but with the price that our systems already have, I will gladly pay it if the SQ increases.

[jos]

I hope this device will not be too expensive (just a few hundred euro, or so) and sound at least as good as other devices already on the market. If this is the case it will be a hit among audiophiles, I assume. I will certainly never buy the SOtM switch, because it is far to expensive for a downstream device. How about others? For Uptone Audio it’s a chance to make a breakthrough, but only with a very, very competitive price point.

[thyname]

Just a silly question (please delete if inappropriate here): why would this Ethernet Switch would work better than fiber optics converters? Provided the one downstream converter is powered by a nice / clean LPS of course.

[jos]

7 minutes ago, thyname said:

Just a silly question (please delete if inappropriate here): why would this Ethernet Switch would work better than fiber optics converters? Provided the one downstream converter is powered by a nice / clean LPS of course.

Certainly niot a silly question; I think you’re right, it will certainly not be better, but it is just an alternative in case you want or need to stay with a Ethernet connection. The GigaFOILv4 in-line Ethernet filter is a very interesting alternative too, in this respect. So, the new Uptone switch need to be very good and cheap!

[matthias]

On 11/30/2018 at 6:12 AM, Superdad said:

 

100Mbps is more than twice the data rate of even DSD1024!  So no problem. Know of any DACs that run that?  

 

The new Holo Audio Spring2 should be able.

 

Matt

[Superdad]

8 hours ago, nonesup said:

I am a firm believer in the benefits that for the SQ, has the decrease of noise in the ethernet lines. My opinion as a potential client (perhaps not shared by all), is that within reason, do not skimp on the pieces that add to the EtherRegen, if they consider that they improve the SQ. Naturally that will increase the price, but with the price that our systems already have, I will gladly pay it if the SQ increases.

 

Don’t worry, we are not skimping on any elements in the EtherREGEN! (Though I admit to being a bit price conscious, selection between two performance-equivalent parts usually comes down to which is more likely to be available in the required quantities at production time.)

 

1 hour ago, jos said:

I hope this device will not be too expensive (just a few hundred euro, or so) and sound at least as good as other devices already on the market. If this is the case it will be a hit among audiophiles, I assume. I will certainly never buy the SOtM switch, because it is far to expensive for a downstream device. How about others? For Uptone Audio it’s a chance to make a breakthrough, but only with a very, very competitive price point.

 

We have a lot of reasons to believe that EtherREGEN will accomplish the goal of near-complete isolation and quality clocking—using true digital isolator chips, something nobody else is doing.  And while later on we hope to back up our work with measurements showing downstream (post DAC) effect, it really will be up to users to compare and decide if our product amounts to a “breakthrough” as you put it.

 

On the matter of price:

I have stated our desire to keep the retail price in the $495-$595 range (won’t know exactly until the final BoM costs are tallied; we already know that $400 is impossible).  

 

But comparing an UpTone retail price to that of most other manufacturers is really not a fair way to compare value.  And what I mean by that does set aside subjective/objective performance. I am speaking strictly of parts cost versus retail price.

Most firms—with larger staffs, a marketing budget, and dealers/distributors to support—set retail prices at least 5-6x parts cost (sure some go well beyond that, but such is more rare than some cynics would have you believe).  The most I have ever set the retail price for an UpTone product is 2.5x parts cost (that includes custom aluminum enclosure, accessories and packaging—but excluding labor cost).

So there is that... 

 

1 hour ago, thyname said:

Just a silly question (please delete if inappropriate here): why would this Ethernet Switch would work better than fiber optics converters? Provided the one downstream converter is powered by a nice / clean LPS of course.

 

While a fiber media converter will provide complete galvanic isolation from the upstream connections, that is really about all it accomplishes.

There is still much to consider from the fiber back to copper Ethernet and on into whatever critical DAC-connected device you are feeding.  The FMCs we have looked at are filled with cheap noisy regulators, they do nothing to isolate from the processing of the SFP-caged module, there is no isolation after the switch chip (or whatever form of Ethernet processor they happen to employ), no improvement to clocking, and no focus on output signal integrity.

 

EtherREGEN does focus on all those things, plus offers one fiber media port and 4 Gigabit copper ports—in addition to our super-optimized 10/100 “output” port.

 

So we will look forward to reports comparing our switch to FMCs.  We honestly do not know how significant the difference will be for how many of you. But my personal experience with FMCs versus even the special Cisco Catalyst (that @lmitche turned me on to) suggests many folks are in for a treat.

 

1 hour ago, jos said:

Certainly niot a silly question; I think you’re right, it will certainly not be better, but it is just an alternative in case you want or need to stay with a Ethernet connection. The GigaFOILv4 in-line Ethernet filter is a very interesting alternative too, in this respect. So, the new Uptone switch need to be very good and cheap!

 

Those single port GigaFOIL devices, starting at $475 (https://www.djmelectronics.com/ethernet-emi-rfi-filter.html) are fiber-optic based isolators, strictly focused on EMI.  As detailed elsewhere, we are taking a broader approach.  

[octaviars]

6 minutes ago, Superdad said:

EtherREGEN does focus on all those things, plus offers one fiber media port and 4 Gigabit copper ports—in addition to our super-optimized 10/100 “output” port.

 

So we will look forward to reports comparing our switch to FMCs.  We honestly do not know how significant the difference will be for how many of you. But my personal experience with FMCs versus even the special Cisco Catalyst (that @lmitche turned me on to) suggests many folks are in for a treat.

 

I have a Ubiquity router with SFP port that I plan to feed a etherREGEN with, got two 1310nm SFP and Corning Clearcurve single mode fiber waiting for the switch. Connect my NUC with ROCK to one of the gigabit ports and use the clean one to feed my SOtM sMS-200ultra Neo, I hope that this will be a good solution with galvanic isolation from the rest of my network in my house and all of the equipment in my stereo only connected to one power circuit.

[nonesup]

I do not expect it to be of similar quality to other manufacturers. I already have an AQvox switch (which certainly improved the sound), I look for something that is much better than my AQvox. I have high hopes that Etheregen will get it.

[tboooe]

5 hours ago, thyname said:

Just a silly question (please delete if inappropriate here): why would this Ethernet Switch would work better than fiber optics converters? Provided the one downstream converter is powered by a nice / clean LPS of course.

I have used multiple FMC in my system.  Even if you power it with a good LPS, a weakness is still is still the internal electronics of the FMC like the voltage regulator, caps, etc.  This is where I see the Uptone product having an opportunity to be better.

[R1200CL]

2 hours ago, nonesup said:

I do not expect it to be of similar quality to other manufacturers. I already have an AQvox switch (which certainly improved the sound), I look for something that is much better than my AQvox. I have high hopes that Etheregen will get it.

 

You better put that one for sale quicly, as i think it will have zero value very soon ?

Actually I would be surprised if you where able to get even $100 right now. 

[Superdad]

58 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

You better put that one for sale quicly, as i think it will have zero value very soon ?

Actually I would be surprised if you where able to get even $100 right now. 

 

Hi Andreas:

You know I like you.  But you sometimes lack a polite filter for your thoughts.

I am happy to discuss technical differences between products (and the benefits of our from-the-ground up new design versus switches that are just mods of commodity units), but I feel comments such as yours above have no place here in our forum.  Every small manufacturer in the audio business needs to make their own way.  We like to compete, but we also like to keep things friendly and respectful.  I hope you understand.

Thanks,

--Alex C.

[Ralf11]

my question is about "using true digital isolator chips"

 

these are pretty common devices, so (w/o disclosing trade secrets) are you using something special, or is the circuit topology they are embedded in or...??

[Superdad]

12 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

my question is about "using true digital isolator chips"

 

these are pretty common devices, so (w/o disclosing trade secrets) are you using something special, or is the circuit topology they are embedded in or...??

 

Aside from there being many types (some are much better than others, and what you follow them with matters a lot as well), I can tell you that NOBODY else is currently using digital isolators on Ethernet signal lines.  There are reasons for that ('cause its not easy), but now I definitely will stop short of further elaboration. 

[JohnSwenson]

9 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

my question is about "using true digital isolator chips"

 

these are pretty common devices, so (w/o disclosing trade secrets) are you using something special, or is the circuit topology they are embedded in or...??

Let's just say that all of the parts can be had from places like Digikey, but we are using them together in ways not normally considered for these components.

 

Unfortunately many of these components are pretty expensive. The synergy between devices simply does not work with less expensive devices. We are not spending LARGE sums to have custom made components, but the ones we do need are not cheap.

 

John S.

[Blake]

16 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

Aside from there being many types (some are much better than others, and what you follow them with matters a lot as well), I can tell you that NOBODY else is currently using digital isolators on Ethernet signal lines.  There are reasons for that ('cause its not easy), but now I definitely will stop short of further elaboration. 

 

Yes, on the one hand I (selfishly) love how open you are in sharing info with your customers and members of this forum. 

 

On the other hand, if I am being honest, I sometimes feel like a nervous mother hen, worried that you might tip off competitors too soon  ?

 

I have no doubt your competitors will be buying and then dissecting the EtherRegen immediately after its release in order to develop competing products (that cost more... cough, cough), but make those folks wait! 

 

Written with "smiley face" intent.

 

 

[Bones13]

Heh, well we are an impatient lot to be sure.

 

My DLink hub will do for now. I know I won’t overpay for a consumer hub that has been hot rodded with a few caps, and linear power supply.

 

I plan on waiting for the reviews on the etherRegen and the recently released, much more expensive competition. I don’t happen to need an 8 port hub in that location. Mine only feeds the Bricasti, Roku, and Oppo 4K disc player.

 

 

[jos]

4 hours ago, Bones13 said:

Heh, well we are an impatient lot to be sure.

 

My DLink hub will do for now. I know I won’t overpay for a consumer hub that has been hot rodded with a few caps, and linear power supply.

 

I plan on waiting for the reviews on the etherRegen and the recently released, much more expensive competition. I don’t happen to need an 8 port hub in that location. Mine only feeds the Bricasti, Roku, and Oppo 4K disc player.

 

 

In general: 8 Ports will be best.

[jos]

I think the etherREGEN will be our Christmas? present ? from UpTone Audio ?

[Superdad]

40 minutes ago, jos said:

In general: 8 Ports will be best.

 

Best how?  Most people will be feeding the EtherREGEN from some other switch or router in their house that is handling family computers, etc.  While the EtherREGEN will function as a general purpose switch, its ports are most likely to be used for the few audio-centric network connections (music server, NAS, streamer/renderer, etc.).

So for that I think our 6 ports (4 Gigabit copper, 1 Gigabit SFP cage for optical or copper module, and 1 über-special actively isolated port for renderer/DAC) will suit most. 

 

9 minutes ago, jos said:

I think the etherREGEN will be our Christmas? present ? from UpTone Audio ?

 

Oooh, sorry, Santa is going to disappoint you then.   EtherREGEN will not ship until early next year.  But I promise that our very tall elf is working hard on it and I am working to be sure the parts, the case, and everything else will be ready concurrently.

Thanks for your patience. 

 

Hope everyone has a lovely holiday,

--Alex C.

 

P.S. We are about to close for vacation (leaving our teen/college sons home and taking my wife to ski in Banff, Alberta for our 30th wedding anniversary--we honeymooned there in summer 1988!).  Tomorrow (Wednesday, December 12th) is the last day for web orders to be placed (for UltraCap LPS-1.2, ISO REGEN, or bundles of those) and still have them shipped before my trip.  

 

I'll be back in the office on the 26th.  In my absence, please all try to not make too much of a ruckus in this thread--or in my e-mail in-box! 

 

[Middy]

Have a great time all at Uptone .

Happy Xmas 

[pl_svn]

6 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Best how?

I believe @jos was only talking about regular switches, not the EtherRegen: I remember John Swenson said something about those having "coupled transformers" (or something like that) so to avoid magnetic interferences he recommended getting 8 port switches and only plugging devices every other port

 

have a great time with your family, Alex

[jos]

12 minutes ago, pl_svn said:

I believe @jos was only talking about regular switches, not the EtherRegen: I remember John Swenson said something about those having "coupled transformers" (or something like that) so to avoid magnetic interferences he recommended getting 8 port switches and only plugging devices every other port

 

have a great time with your family, Alex

Indeed, thanks for the clarification ?

[baconbrain]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

 

P.S. We are about to close for vacation (leaving our teen/college sons home and taking my wife to ski in Banff, Alberta for our 30th wedding anniversary--we honeymooned there in summer 1988!).  Tomorrow (Wednesday, December 12th) is the last day for web orders to be placed (for UltraCap LPS-1.2, ISO REGEN, or bundles of those) and still have them shipped before my trip.  

 

 

Congrats, my wife and I are only 4 years behind you!