EtherREGEN: The long development thread. [Some Gen2 dev. pics and update starting on page 92.]

[HumanMedia]

2 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

100Mbps is more than twice the data rate of even DSD1024!  So no problem. Know of any DACs that run that?  

Not yet, not yet. But 5 years ago I couldn’t even imagine people would ever be playing DSD512. But in 5 years time maybe the EtherRegen 2.0 will be out then. ?

[Albrecht]

19 hours ago, Superdad said:

As one famous audiophile used to say:

 

AWESOME!!!

[lmitche]

17 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

As one famous audiophile used to say:

 

 

Does anyone know what receiver and turntable were used in the advertisement above?

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

Does anyone know what receiver and turntable were used in the advertisement above?

 

That my friend was a McIntosh 4100:

 

Can't quite make out the turntable, but the arm looks a bit like a Dual.

[jamesg11]

Well, being a Welles nut ... I’m now gonna get 2x ERs.

[Superdad]

6 hours ago, plissken said:

So 50 or 75 doesn't matter when you can pull the Ethernet cable and music still plays.

 

Pliss, please take your tired arguments (everyone has read about your experiment many times) to some other thread.  If you want to unplug your Ethernet cable feel free to do so.

 

The EtherREGEN is about applying active digital isolators and high-speed differential flip-flops to Ethernet signals.  (Something that nobody else is doing. )

 

If you don't want to believe that we are doing something unique and efficacious that is fine.  You can just wait until the product ships and then read the reactions from the users.  And as detailed elsewhere, John is working on a system to quantify and publish proof of what the product accomplishes.  But at the moment we are more concerned with finishing testing and getting into production.

 

Thanks and goodnight,

--Alex C.

[LowMidHigh]

10 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

The audio timing is stored in the PCM data and the DAC unpacks that and applies it there. Before that point there is zero audio clocking data.

 

I can transfer an entire 70 minutes of 16/44.1 audio in 6 seconds over GBe.

 

With JRiver you can transfer the entire album over the wire, unplug the ethernet cable, and listen to the entire thing.

 

I proved to someone that the Ethernet cable can't make a difference when we spun up Tidal, started the playback of an 11 minute song and they couldn't tell me when the cable was pulled out (I did that 30 seconds in). The entire song played back for 10:30 without a cable plugged in and they didn't know and couldn't tell.

 

If jitter is a variance in timing then unplugging the cable is the worst sort of jitter.

If I understand your argument correctly, re-clockering the signal before the DAC is useless. 

 

We'll, a cascade of 2 MC3+USB + REF10 did wonders for my system. And I'm not tinfoil-head. No audiophile cables in my system or questionable modes. If it's not in my face, off the door it goes. 

[Superdad]

32 minutes ago, plissken said:

It's not about belief. It's about proof.

 

You already started your own thread to discuss your theories and your skepticism:

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/54749-has-anyone-actually-seen-the-ethernet-phasenoisenon-linearity-gremlin/

 

Please go back there and continue.  This thread is about a product we are developing.

Since I gave you fair warning, your prior posts [in this thread from today] have been deleted.

 

P.S. to others reading this: Normally I am not heavy-handed in moderating our sponsored forum.  Discussion about many things is fine.

But Plissken is no friend of UpTone’s and over the years he has repeatedly—on CA and on ASR where he posts under a different name—attacked, berated, and insulted us, sometimes in a rather rude and personal manner.  

I truly don’t need the aggravation.

[LowMidHigh]

21 minutes ago, Ultrarunner said:

I really wish Chris would permanently ban him and several others who won’t trust their ears (or can’t hear), and make it their mission to mock audiophiles. I don’t post much, and avoid a number of threads because of these people. I’m sure there are plenty of others who would participate more without them. 

I don't care for the man, he conducts himself poorly. Still, we should always remember: "First they came for the communists...Then came for me." 

[Superdad]

9 minutes ago, Ultrarunner said:

I really wish Chris would permanently ban him and several others who won’t trust their ears (or can’t hear), and make it their mission to mock audiophiles.

 

I'll make a few quick statements--and then by this evening I might clear away all this off-topic stuff:

 

a) I don't think @plissken was ever banned.

 

b) I don't think he or any of the folks like him should be banned.  I have no problem with lots of questioning and skepticism being expressed on the CA forums.  Yes, like others I am bothered by it when it turns into mockery--especially because history has shown (in all fields of science, not just audio) that phenomenon are often observable and repeatable in advance of complete measurement and explanation of same.  Plus I never take a stand on SQ matters unless I have heard things first hand with my own ears, so nothing these folks say can make me question my own experience.

 

c) I am an ardent advocate of free speech.  But CA is a multi-section forum and there are plenty of places where skeptics can raise their voices, ask questions, and take whatever stand they wish.  They can, as Plissken did, start their own thread.  Or they can join into some other public forum thread.  But the forum everyone is reading these words in now is sponsored by UpTone Audio.  I pay $3,000 per year for the privilege of using this space to discuss our products, answer user questions, and make product announcements.  And I am also free to edit and delete postings that I deem way off-topic or even hostile.

 

d) Plissken and UpTone have a bit of history, and last night it was easy to see where his multiple posts in this thread were going.  I had the choice between fueling him or stopping it short.  Since my daily workload (with private e-mail, production, parts ordering, accounting, shipping, and other logistics) already makes this a 7 day/night per week job, I have neither the time nor patience to enter into a going-nowhere speculative tech discussion.

 

Also, I am not the engineer here at UpTone, @JohnSwenson is, and he is very busy working on both the EtherREGEN project (plus some other secret ones for after that) and his new GGB-CBT (Golden Gate Bridge - Clock Block Tester; we've yet to name it, that's just my new pet acronym) in the hopes that we can finally visually identify many of the things that are being heard with USB and Ethernet interfaces.

 

The truth is, we think there is a great deal of misunderstanding about the cause and mechanisms involved with a lot of what users and manufacturers are doing with computer audio. It seems natural that once John is ready to share measurement results (still a few months off), he will at that time also explain not just what and how he is measuring, but will also then have time to share new theories (perhaps at that point graphically proven) about the underlying issues.  At that point it will be evident that many (not all) assumptions to-date have ben wide of the mark.

 

We'll see.  It should be apparent to all that with UpTone, John and I are taking a much different approach.  

Not just to products:

---We could certainly be successful producing a multitude of me-too products, but we both find it much more fun and interesting to push at the edges, doing things that have not been done before, with the goal of advancing the audio art/science.  And while our first offerings (JS-2, REGENs, UltraCaps) do fall into the leading-edge category, they will likely seem pedestrian relative to what we have planned for the next few years.  Some of the high-speed parts now becoming available will allow John to implement transmission topologies that have never been used in audio (and yes, I am talking about DACs here). It is very exciting for us--and it will be for others when these designs eventually make it out. 

 

---What I really meant when I said we take a different approach (and I promise to stop after this...) is that unlike a lot of firms who quietly work on products and then release them followed by somewhat vague marketing, we are more open (cautiously at times for our own protection) and publicly engaged in advance--during development. (Many have told me this is a mistake, but in the absence of having a product to deliver, it is a way to keep people interested and anticipating good things to come.)  And we are more open than most about explaining the technology and function of our products.

Neither of us are Marketing guys, so readers get rather unfiltered and fairly technical explanations--with no flashy and mostly empty graphics. Of course this is a by-product of John being the rare engineer who can both write well and explain complex topics, while also being modest and always quick to point out the limits of his data.  That is, he tries to be very clear about what is hypothesis and what can be proven. (I think that is what one expects from a scientist.)

 

Yet it is clear that our approach--of talking about things a bit early--draws out skeptics, many of whom demand proof, when little can be provided (besides others' anecdotal auditory experiments) during the research phase. As they say (though is it politically correct anymore?) "pioneers are always the ones with the arrows in their backs."  And I always find it interesting that our detractors rarely call out or harass companies that are now competing in our space (I am thinking of the plethora of firms that followed us into the hub-based USB signal regenerator market.)

 

Anyway, there you have it.  Too many semi-random thoughts and admissions from a happy entrepreneur on a very rainy Saturday afternoon.  Such long posts are a clear sign that I am procrastinating a pile of mundane work.  

Thanks for reading!

--Alex C.

 

 

 

[Kritpoon]

Saving up my $$$ for EtherREGEN!

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, Kritpoon said:

Saving up my $$$ for EtherREGEN!

 

Thanks, but hopefully it's $$ and not $$$.

(At least compared to the competition--of which there there will be little to none on a technical basis.)

[diecaster]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

 

Thanks, but hopefully it's $$ and not $$$.

(At least compared to the competition—of which there there will be little to none on a technical basis.)

 

No competition at all. You switch will not be just a switch with audio grade caps and a better clock. Like any of that makes any real difference.

[R1200CL]

@Superdad

Can you share pictures (cad) front and rear plate ?

[Superdad]

9 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Can you share pictures (cad) front and rear plate ?

 

Not yet.  Likely next month.  

[LowMidHigh]

What will be the input voltage? 

 

Sorry the search on my phone is failing me... 

[diecaster]

16 minutes ago, LowMidHigh said:

What will be the input voltage? 

 

If this thing is designed right, and I am sure it will be, the standard power supply is all you will need. It won’t need an LPS. 

[Superdad]

1 hour ago, LowMidHigh said:

What will be the input voltage? 

 

7V to 12V will be fine.  Total current draw will be (hopefully) under 1A.

[Bones13]

Really getting excited for this switch to surface. I am trying to simplify my system over time. I eliminated USB and reclocking issues going to a Bricasti M12. Gone is the shoebox full of custom cables, microRendu, 2x power supply boxes, etc., DAC, and Pre-Amp. Now signal chain ethernet from a small generic hub that feeds the Roku and Oppo and Bricasti over at the audio stack. I run Roon core on my NAS in a closet downstairs. I know my Bricasti was expensive, but the sound enhancement was quite significant over the microRendu retinue + Bryston BDA3 DAC + W4S STP-SE.

 

This new etherRegen hub sounds perfect for my system, specially not needing additional clocking, and power boxes. I might even upgrade the other switch in the office to run optical from that switch to this etherRegen. The Bricasti does a lot of ethernet isolation, having the etherRegen level of clean will be icing on the cake.

 

Keep up the great work developing these special devices for our niche market.

[Ralf11]

ditto - I may even be inclined to slap some terminals on the CAT 6 cable I ran to the stereo...

[Albrecht]

On 12/4/2018 at 9:25 AM, Bones13 said:

upgrade the other switch in the office to run optical from that switch to this etherRegen.

FWIW: I am considering that as well.

[diecaster]

If you already have optical cable run, I would certainly use it between your existing switch and the new EtherREGEN switch. But, there is no advantage to running new optical cable between the switches. Cat5e will be just as good. 

[Bones13]

16 hours ago, diecaster said:

If you already have optical cable run, I would certainly use it between your existing switch and the new EtherREGEN switch. But, there is no advantage to running new optical cable between the switches. Cat5e will be just as good. 

 

I’m sure it is. As the analog, digital, and power cables continue to multiply in my room, anything I can replace with optical (while not adversely affecting sound quality) is a preference.

 

example is the 20’ optical HDMI cable I’m using. Running with it are stereo cables to the amps, and from the cable box to the pre. Changing that (shielded) digital cable to optical makes me feel better. I could not hear a difference, to be clear though.

[Superdad]

For those who follow this thread and John's writings, you may really enjoy a great post he just made explaining some about DC-DC regulators, as it does pertain to the EtherREGEN:

 

And here is the followup post I made there:

 

Of course that was a great post by @JohnSwenson.  The only thing I feel inclined to add is that while the EtherREGEN board is already up to eleven(!) LT3042/45 ultra-ultra-low-noise regulators (at around $3.50 each in quantity), we may have almost as many of the fancy, low-emmisons DC-DC buck regulators he mentioned.  And those too are about $3.50 each.  All that does not even include the $15 isolating regulator module that we are using to get voltage across the "moat."

 

It's crazy but the bill-of-materials for the state-of-the-art power regulation in the EtherREGEN could come close to equalling the total cost for the Ethernet switches, magnetics, PHYs, clock synthesizers, XO, digital isolators, and high-speed low-jitter differential flip-flops.

 

And some of the above parts are not always well stocked.  I am sitting here today searching stock and placing advance orders for some of the more difficult items.

I sure hope this all turns out to be worth it!  

 

[bobfa]

Alex, am very interested in your reporting on the EtherREGEN progress.  When I see pictures of the board in the LPS-1  I am intrigued by the complexity of managing the super-caps. I am also amazed at what it does for helping the sound in systems.  I look at the JS-2, and it seems "simple".  I know that is also relative. I appreciate it for what it does.  Both of those devices are priced reasonably for what they do.  (more than)

 

I am getting the vibe that the EtherREGEN is more complicated than some folks might have guessed.  I have also seen several other small (and large) electronics manufacturers talk about parts supply issues and quality.  That part alone is tough work.  Designing and developing test equipment is way above and beyond what others do.

 

I for one appreciate the openness of communications from UpTone.  Thank you much for keeping us updated.  I will be saving my "pennies, nickels, dimes, and quarters".

 

Bob