Amir at ASR claims Uptone won't sell the ISO regen to him...

[firedog]

2 minutes ago, esldude said:

Is it worth noting he can get clean measurements from some other gear?  Is it worth noting some other people have gotten similar measurements?  Is it all a conspiracy?

I don't believe in a conspiracy. 

Your other two questions don't prove anything, no matter what the answer.

 

I do know that Amir's initial measurements of the Regen (paraphrasing his own words) were "results that couldn't be right", yet he rushed to publish them anyway. He had to withdraw them.

That, first, give me doubts about his competence. But even allowing for that, his rush to publish something he knew wasn't right shows me that he has an agenda.

Beyond that, I think iFi explained well why it isn't so simple to do proper measurements. Having one accurate result doesn't prove anything about you subsequent results. 

Bottom line: you apparently have faith in him and his methods, I don't.

[bibo01]

8 minutes ago, Superdad said:

...

If others wish do not wish to accept plainly heard differences until they see someone produce some measurement that means something to them at the output of their DAC, that is fine.  But staring at a few spikes on a jitter plot is not going to tell you if the music is going to sound more real or not.  So sad to see such a subset of the audiophile populous is still stuck in the rut of not using there own, evolution-tuned test gear affixed to their heads.  They are not hard to use and the process can be quite pleasant. 

 

 

As I offered and done in the past for the Amber Regen, why don't you send me an ISO Regen to be measured properly at DAC output with dynamic signal (instead of static tones)?!

[Sal1950]

2 hours ago, firedog said:

 Doesn't have anything to do with having a degree, and having the Analyzer doesn't 

mean you know how to use it properly.

No it doesn't have anything to do with knowing what your doing or talking about. And certainly nothing to do with having the best and most applicable measuring equipment. I don't think Superdad could show him how to use the AP since he doesn't even own one.  

Are you serious Dog 

[esldude]

2 hours ago, bibo01 said:

As I offered and done in the past for the Amber Regen, why don't you send me an ISO Regen to be measured properly at DAC output with dynamic signal (instead of static tones)?!

Won't happen because there is nothing to be gained.  If you find a real difference, people who were buying it without that are still buying it.  If you find no difference, it could hurt his business a little (though probably not).  So with trouble keeping up with orders he isn't taking any blind tests nor worrying about any measurements.  The only important measures are those related to this:  $

[bibo01]

2 minutes ago, esldude said:

Won't happen because there is nothing to be gained.  If you find a real difference, people who were buying it without that are still buying it.  If you find no difference, it could hurt his business a little (though probably not).  So with trouble keeping up with orders he isn't taking any blind tests nor worrying about any measurements.  The only important measures are those related to this:  $

If you can prove that with some systems there can be an improvement in SQ, you can shut up critics who claim that only worsening is possible.

[firedog]

33 minutes ago, Sal1950 said:

No it doesn't have anything to do with knowing what your doing or talking about. And certainly nothing to do with having the best and most applicable measuring equipment. I don't think Superdad could show him how to use the AP since he doesn't even own one.  

Are you serious Dog 

Like I said, having the degree and the piece of equipment don't prove you know how to use it properly to get real results. Please tell me how this is an incorrect statement. 

[Keith_W]

How ugly this thread has become. It only requires the same protagonists to jump in and all hell breaks loose. This kind of comment: 

Or do you just insist on a belief in your magic dust? 

 

... has no place in a community of polite hobbyists. It is nothing more than a groundless vicious personal attack. Even if measurements were available that shows the product doing nothing, it would merely change the remark from a groundless personal attack to a mere personal attack. I would urge the poster to retract his statement and apologize. 

 

I respect both Alex and Amir, but in this case I have to support Alex's right to choose whom he sells his equipment to. As for Amir - whether or not you agree with him, or what he does, he is always polite and courteous, even to his critics. I just wish that some of his supporters behaved in the same way. 

[Speed Racer]

25 minutes ago, esldude said:

Won't happen because there is nothing to be gained.  If you find a real difference, people who were buying it without that are still buying it.  If you find no difference, it could hurt his business a little (though probably not).  So with trouble keeping up with orders he isn't taking any blind tests nor worrying about any measurements.  The only important measures are those related to this:  $

 

Did Alex run over your dog or something? He doesn't deserve these kinds of comments. He's in business to make money, but in my dealings with him, money has never seemed to be the overriding concern. The concern has always been with the quality of the products and customer satisfaction.

[esldude]

22 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

 

Did Alex run over your dog or something? He doesn't deserve these kinds of comments. He's in business to make money, but in my dealings with him, money has never seemed to be the overriding concern. The concern has always been with the quality of the products and customer satisfaction.

Stating the obvious.  Don't have a problem with someone making money.  Everyone should. He did renege on doing a blind test when someone took him up on it.  Again, he has nothing to gain from that, and could only lose.  Any smart business person would turn it down.  He did. 

 

Important measures are dollars, as for audio measures they are unimportant to his business venture or in satisfying his customers.  Those are not in conflict in a case like this.  So what I stated is not in conflict with his concern being his customer satisfaction.  Those go together. 

[Daudio]

 

Nothing like Amir to bring out the worst of the rif raf and mentally disturbed 

[firedog]

20 minutes ago, Daudio said:

 

Nothing like Amir to bring out the worst of the rif raf and mentally disturbed 

Can't blame Amir for that. I may not be a fan, but he certainly maintains a level of civility and isn't afraid to let even harsh critics post at his site. On most forums they take stuff like that down.

Amir isn't responsible for the behavior of posters.

[Don Hills]

1 hour ago, Daudio said:

 

Nothing like Amir to bring out the worst of the rif raf and mentally disturbed 

 

What took you so long to get here?

[mansr]

It doesn't matter if Amir is the biggest jerk to ever walk the face of the earth. By refusing to sell him a device, Alex still looks like he is hiding something. I can see three possible reasons for this refusal:

1. Alex knows it's a scam and is afraid he'll be found out.
2. Alex has no confidence in his product and is afraid it will be shown useless.
3. Alex is a petty, vindictive dick.

I'd also like to point out that the approved reviewers who'd be permitted to measure the device are known for never publishing a negative review. Even when the measured performance is questionable, they find some way to praise the product.

[lmitche]

Hey Alex, great to hear you won't make the same mistake twice! Given Amir's prior behavior it makes sense that you aren't wasting your time.

 

Anyone that needs measurements to accept the positive impact of the ISO Regen on sound quality is in the wrong hobby.

 

Thanks again for the spectacular upgrade the ISO Regen has contributed here.

 

Larry

[christopher3393]

45 minutes ago, mansr said:

It doesn't matter if Amir is the biggest jerk to ever walk the face of the earth. By refusing to sell him a device, Alex still looks like he is hiding something. I can see three possible reasons for this refusal:

1. Alex knows it's a scam and is afraid he'll be found out.
2. Alex has no confidence in his product and is afraid it will be shown useless.
3. Alex is a petty, vindictive dick.

I'd also like to point out that the approved reviewers who'd be permitted to measure the device are known for never publishing a negative review. Even when the measured performance is questionable, they find some way to praise the product.

Mans, this doesn't appear to be even close to objective.

[PeterSt]

Ill minded ?

[firedog]

2 hours ago, mansr said:

It doesn't matter if Amir is the biggest jerk to ever walk the face of the earth. By refusing to sell him a device, Alex still looks like he is hiding something. I can see three possible reasons for this refusal:

1. Alex knows it's a scam and is afraid he'll be found out.
2. Alex has no confidence in his product and is afraid it will be shown useless.
3. Alex is a petty, vindictive dick.

I'd also like to point out that the approved reviewers who'd be permitted to measure the device are known for never publishing a negative review. Even when the measured performance is questionable, they find some way to praise the product.

Mansr-

You are an intelligent guy, so surely you can consider the additional possibility that Alex doesn't trust Amir (with at least some reason, whether you accept the reasoning or not) to do objective work. 

 

Vindictiive? Actually your post sounds like you have an axe to grind against Alex: or why else write a post like that?

 

As far as the other reviewers, I've many times seen qustionable measurements resulting from them, and being noted as such. Alex also noted he doesn't care if someone else sends an ISO Regen to anyone they want, including Amir. Just doesn't want to sell him one. So none of your three reasons seem close to reality. Nor close to the Alex that we are familiar with on this forum, nor the one familiar to seemingly all of his customers, excepting possibly Amir.

[plissken]

9 hours ago, Speed Racer said:

 

Nice dodge......I don't know and I bet you don't know.

 

Uh, his ears. As in Alex should allow for someone to setup a blind testing rig.

 

Get a windows machine and two DAC's. Feed the DAC's output into a preamp with multiple inputs. One DAC has the regen and another not. Windows can feed both DAC's the same stream at the same time.

 

This would be single blind with someone doing the input switching. 

[plissken]

8 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

Again this is not about measurements.  I am under zero obligation to sell our products to hostile people who seek only to defame us.

 

But as far as the most important and direct measure of a USB signal regenerating, an eye-pattern contains and reveals the all most important information: amplitude, jitter, noise, edge rates, timing error, etc.--those are the components of what is known as Signal Integrity.

Here is a short article about them: http://www.edn.com/design/test-and-measurement/4389368/Eye-Diagram-Basics-Reading-and-applying-eye-diagrams

 

Differences between USB cables are also revealed using with eye-pattern sweeps.  Here is the before and after with the ISO REGEN:

BEFORE:

 

AFTER:

 

 

 

 

 

Those are both clean eye patterns. A DAC should have zero issue extracting from either with minimal overhead. Show me the output of the DAC or let me fly out and see how you do with your sighted bias removed from the equation. 

[plissken]

5 hours ago, firedog said:

Like I said, having the degree and the piece of equipment don't prove you know how to use it properly to get real results. Please tell me how this is an incorrect statement. 

 

Funny, when John Atkinson measured the Regen it actually measured WORSE then no regen. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Findings that corroborate Amir and some others. Who has the agenda here? 

[plissken]

18 minutes ago, firedog said:

Mansr-

You are an intelligent guy, so surely you can consider the additional possibility that Alex doesn't trust Amir (with at least some reason, whether you accept the reasoning or not) to do objective work. 

Guess what the defense to that is? Showing the analog output of a DAC that improved, post the method, and be confident in it and invite Amir to do same said and confirm the findings. 

 

 

[pkane2001]

8 hours ago, Superdad said:

As to the degree to which various DACs and their USB input are affected by variations in SI--and why that can have an effect on the DAC's overall ground plane and master clock--John has written extensively about that, and other (both DAC and external device) manufacturers have worked on the issue to improve their products. Just because the lay person does not grasp or acknowledge certain deeper engineering issues doe not mean they don't matter or exist.  

 

Alex, all your eye pattern plots prove is that the USB signal is improved from some poor USB port on some PC. That tells me nothing of the effect this device will have on SQ, since I don't know how or why this would translate into better SQ. Please explain this to me in "lay person" terms, or even in technical terms.

 

John Swenson stated that this device works the following way:

Quote

My current thinking on USB interface is that there are at LEAST three things that can degrade the sound coming from a DAC. All of these work by increasing the jitter on the clock feeding the DAC chip(s). This can happen in two different ways: increasing the jitter of the local clock itself, or modifying how the DAC chip receives the clock, which effectively increases the jitter INSIDE the DAC chip.

(highlight is mine)

 

As I understand this, these effects should be easily measurable at the output of the DAC. I don't buy the argument that this is impossible to measure due to variations in DACs. A measurement without and with the ISO REGEN should show an improvement in jitter. You can pick the worst possible DAC, or the best possible DAC, I don't care -- pick one that best demonstrates your device. Just show that the device does what is advertised.

[STC]

8 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

Again this is not about measurements.  I am under zero obligation to sell our products to hostile people who seek only to defame us.

 

But as far as the most important and direct measure of a USB signal regenerating, an eye-pattern contains and reveals the all most important information: amplitude, jitter, noise, edge rates, timing error, etc.--those are the components of what is known as Signal Integrity.

Here is a short article about them: http://www.edn.com/design/test-and-measurement/4389368/Eye-Diagram-Basics-Reading-and-applying-eye-diagrams

 

Differences between USB cables are also revealed using with eye-pattern sweeps.  Here is the before and after with the ISO REGEN:

BEFORE:

 

AFTER:

 

As to the degree to which various DACs and their USB input are affected by variations in SI--and why that can have an effect on the DAC's overall ground plane and master clock--John has written extensively about that, and other (both DAC and external device) manufacturers have worked on the issue to improve their products.  Just because the lay person does not grasp or acknowledge certain deeper engineering issues doe not mean they don't matter or exist.  

If others wish do not wish to accept plainly heard differences until they see someone produce some measurement that means something to them at the output of their DAC, that is fine.  But staring at a few spikes on a jitter plot is not going to tell you if the music is going to sound more real or not.  So sad to see such a subset of the audiophile populous is still stuck in the rut of not using there own, evolution-tuned test gear affixed to their heads.  They are not hard to use and the process can be quite pleasant. 

 

 

 

Thank you for the explanation. 

[jabbr]

8 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

 

Differences between USB cables are also revealed using with eye-pattern sweeps.  Here is the before and after with the ISO REGEN:

BEFORE:

 

AFTER:

 

 

 

 

 

There is a clearcut improvement in the eye pattern after. 

 

I'd say that the device is working as advertised. Now @JohnSwenson has speculated that this would result in a decrease in jitter at the DAC chip. If that were demonstrated, it would be clear evidence that the device was actually doing something to the DAC. I have said many times that the DAC manufacturers should make more effort to ensure that DACs are not subject to differences in jitter of inputs that are within spec. i.e. in an ideal situation the two above inputs would yield the same SQ. But the world is not ideal and Uptone's business is making improvements. I will say that @PeterSt is one who does spend a great amount of effort on this issue, has his own isolation solution, and whos NOS1a DAC sounds fantastic. Is this due to USB isolation or general attention to detail and excellent engineering? Who knows probably more the latter but probably somewhat due to the former  

 

How should the DAC chip "jitter" be measured? I will give my standard answer that I would expect to see a high resolution phase noise by offset frequency plot as is standard for low "jitter" clock oscillators. These plots are industry standard. So that's what I would like to see. Of course the equipment to do this has been expensive. For my own experiments and development work I have obtained the parts to resurrect an HP 3048A which interested parties can Google. I think that doing something like this is certainly within the skill set of @JohnSwenson  but don't know anything about "Amir" except that he was a Windows software guy but I haven't seen any of the type of measurements I would expect to see to answer the issue (a simple spectral analysis doesn't cut it). In any case he's not here and there are many measurements which can be made for many reasons.

 

Now furthermore I would look for differences in the close-in phase noise at the DAC chip ... but just try and make those measurements  (I have some ideas but not something that I'm prepared to go into details at the moment)

 

So what would we see at the DAC output? Basically a very pure tone fed into the DAC would show a widening of the very high resolution spectrum coming out aka "linewidth". Thats one thing, there are others. 

 

In any case lets stop getting personal here guys... there's a lack of technical discussion about why the measurements that are being proposed elsewhere either are or aren't appropriate.

[firedog]

1 hour ago, plissken said:

 

Funny, when John Atkinson measured the Regen it actually measured WORSE then no regen. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Findings that corroborate Amir and some others. Who has the agenda here? 

I never made any negative comment about JA or his measurements. In my comment above about "questionable measurements" I was referring to the quote from Mansr, meaning I've several times seen these reviewers publish "questionable" (meaning not good) measurements for a product under review, and note the negative measurements in the results. 

 

Again, as Alex has said he would be willing to send an ISO Regen to JA for review and meansuement, I'm not sure how any of this has anything to do with me having an agenda. 

 

I have my opinions. What "agenda" do you think I have?