A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[rickca]

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

Are you asking if all other things are the same, will the 65 watt cpu sound the same as the 125 watt cpu? And if not, which will sound better?

Yes, exactly.  And if one sounds better than the other, why?

 

I acknowledge @StreamFidelity's point that an i7-10700 may just be a lower binned i9-10900K that didn't test well enough to meet i9-10900K specs.

 

I spent nearly a year in Burlington, VT testing the PS3 chip at an IBM manufacturing facility.  The amount of test data collected about each chip is mind boggling, way beyond any published specs. 

[Peter Avgeris]

I have been questioning about the debate of high power CPUs vs lower power ones. I really can't see a point for going to maximum CPU power for listening to music. High power induces to many problems /issues. I do not mean that low power CPUs like some Xeons at 17-25 watts could outperform anything but on the other hand I really cannot see any point of going to 125W TDP. 

I had played around with turbo boost and multithreading on my Euphony double pc setup, on both control and end point PCs. Both kill sound. Additionally, splitting any specific process to more than 1 core, also kills sound quality. I don't know what is valid with windows OS but with Euphony platform I have settled to the maximum power I could attain with a quad core Xeon CPU with only 2 cores active per machine, thus 2 cores for control point and 2 cores for end point. This way I have been able to fully suspend almost half power per unit. I am working at 3.6 GHz and haven't noticed any decrease in dynamics, on the contrary music has never been more impactful and live. 

 

I think that numerous benefits come when power is decreased specially when you minimize waste of power. Power supplies are much easier to be built. 

 

I am not the most experienced guy in digital streaming (far from it) but during the last months I have gained some experience and this is the reason I am writing down my findings. I got the best results with a 4-core Xeon cpu running at 3.6GHz,with 2 cores suspended in BIOS no multithrrading, no speedstep, no turbo boost. 

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, rickca said:

Yes, exactly.  And if one sounds better than the other, why?

 

I acknowledge @StreamFidelity's point that an i7-10700 may just be a lower binned i9-10900K that didn't test well enough to meet i9-10900K specs.

 

I spent nearly a year in Burlington, VT testing the PS3 chip at an IBM manufacturing facility.  The amount of test data collected about each chip is mind boggling, way beyond any published specs. 

 

Rick,

 

I too am having trouble discerning what your question is. Does this recent post of mine, detailing the differences I heard between i7-8700T and i7-8700K, help in any way? Or are you asking a different set of questions?

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?do=findComment&comment=1044662

 

[ASRMichael]

Long day to say the least! 10 hour shift actually!!!

 

HPlex H5 base plate removed, and replaced with Panzerholz Wood (it’s so heavy & dense). 
 

I’ll deal with aesthetics later! For now just used black isolation tape. 
 

I didn’t weigh my server but suspect it’s over 35lbs. Bloody heavy! 
 

As you can see from photo I left extra wood at the rear so cable sit on the wood also. 
 

I’ll report on SQ tomorrow! 
 

@Nenon

[auricgoldfinger]

3 minutes ago, ASRMichael said:

Long day to say the least! 10 hour shift actually!!!

 

HPlex H5 base plate removed, and replaced with Panzerholz Wood (it’s so heavy & dense). 
 

I’ll deal with aesthetics later! For now just used black isolation tape. 
 

I didn’t weigh my server but suspect it’s over 35lbs. Bloody heavy! 
 

As you can see from photo I left extra wood at the rear so cable sit on the wood also. 
 

I’ll report on SQ tomorrow! 
 

@Nenon

 

Did you have to get the wood custom cut to fit the chassis?

[ASRMichael]

Hi, no, order off-cut 500mm x 500mm x 30mm.  £170 delivered. Got few pieces left over which I’m going to use under my LPS. 
 

Got my engineering team at work to cut it to size. Using the HDPlex base as a template. 
 

They also tapped the holes for the MB screws. 
 

Took them a while to cut through the dense wood mind you! 

 

[ASRMichael]

1 hour ago, Peter Avgeris said:

I have been questioning about the debate of high power CPUs vs lower power ones. I really can't see a point for going to maximum CPU power for listening to music. High power induces to many problems /issues. I do not mean that low power CPUs like some Xeons at 17-25 watts could outperform anything but on the other hand I really cannot see any point of going to 125W TDP. 

I had played around with turbo boost and multithreading on my Euphony double pc setup, on both control and end point PCs. Both kill sound. Additionally, splitting any specific process to more than 1 core, also kills sound quality. I don't know what is valid with windows OS but with Euphony platform I have settled to the maximum power I could attain with a quad core Xeon CPU with only 2 cores active per machine, thus 2 cores for control point and 2 cores for end point. This way I have been able to fully suspend almost half power per unit. I am working at 3.6 GHz and haven't noticed any decrease in dynamics, on the contrary music has never been more impactful and live. 

 

I think that numerous benefits come when power is decreased specially when you minimize waste of power. Power supplies are much easier to be built. 

 

I am not the most experienced guy in digital streaming (far from it) but during the last months I have gained some experience and this is the reason I am writing down my findings. I got the best results with a 4-core Xeon cpu running at 3.6GHz,with 2 cores suspended in BIOS no multithrrading, no speedstep, no turbo boost. 

Peter what Power supplies are you using with your Euphony setup?

[gstew]

On 6/15/2020 at 11:04 AM, Gavin1977 said:

By the way, if others would like to gently/politely request a 12v version of this ultracap conditioner by Ian Canada on DIY Audio that'd be great.  He's just launched the 5v and 3.3v versions, so only the 12v version missing to have a great way of conditioning ATX power supplies.

 

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/power-supplies/327105-develop-ultra-capacitor-power-supply-lifepo4-battery-power-supply-post6216601.htm

 

Love his work.

Gavin,

 

Do understand the actual Ultracap parts used are rated for 2.7V max, which is why 2 are needed for a 3.3V to 5V supply. 

 

12V would take at least 5 UCs.

 

Having followed and used Ian's products for almost as long as he's been active on DIY Audio (and occasionally collaborated with him), my take is that he tends to develop products that he uses in his own DIY builds and when they produce results he likes, shares them with others via his group buys (for which DIY'ers everywhere are eternally grateful!). So while he might take up this challenge, I don't expect it would be a core focus for Ian.

 

Also what power supply is used as the 3.3V / 5V / 12V source is just as important. AND to be used with UC output buffers, you need to be sure the two used together will be stable and safe. 

 

Of course, you could use 3 of Ian's 5V UcConditioner boards with 3 appropriate and floating output (non-grounded) 5V power supplies with the outputs connected in series + to - to get a 15V UC-buffered supply.

 

OR 2 5V UcConditioners and a 3.3V UcConditioner for a 13.3V supply.

 

OR 2 3.3V UcConditioners and a 5V UcConditioner for an 11.6V supply.

 

I have some beta-release 5V UcConditioners here that I intend to assemble and try out this weekend/week. Will report on how they work.

 

I expect Ian will have these available for general purchase fairly soon.

 

I have 2 active audio systems and 3 UC pair supplies (2 325F pairs, 1 3000F pair) in each for my digital sources. The improvements I heard moving up to these from my previous reference supplies (which were no slouches) were quite incredible and rewarding. Of course the UC pairs I use are based on Ian's developmental project, the UCPi, where one needs to manually pre-charge the UC pair to the correct target voltage before connecting them for use. Very hair shirt, but as a long-time DIY'er, something I am used to doing in all of my setups.

 

Ian's UcConditioner series is designed to make use of these supplies a bit easier and less user-hostile.

 

Greg in MIssissippi

[Johnseye]

37 minutes ago, ASRMichael said:

Long day to say the least! 10 hour shift actually!!!

 

HPlex H5 base plate removed, and replaced with Panzerholz Wood (it’s so heavy & dense). 
 

I’ll deal with aesthetics later! For now just used black isolation tape. 
 

I didn’t weigh my server but suspect it’s over 35lbs. Bloody heavy! 
 

As you can see from photo I left extra wood at the rear so cable sit on the wood also. 
 

I’ll report on SQ tomorrow! 
 

@Nenon

 

What is this wood supposed to do? 

 

[ASRMichael]

11 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

What is this wood supposed to do? 

 

Same wood used on Taiko Extreme, also used in Pianos. Being so dense would result in less vibrations I suppose. Also add weight to server which is a good thing. 

[Kal Rubinson]

43 minutes ago, ASRMichael said:

Same wood used on Taiko Extreme, also used in Pianos. Being so dense would result in less vibrations I suppose. Also add weight to server which is a good thing. 

There are denser materials that will add even more weight.  That it is used in pianos is irrelevant.  The only value that I can see(!) is that it looks nice.

[Exocer]

Yesterday, I installed an FMC to separate my wireless network from my wired music network. This turned out to be very straightforward process. Noise floor dropped a bit and there is an ease in music playback as well. The sound is slightly less fatiguing. FMC is not fed with linear power and is a general Startech FMC I had laying around unused.

 

Today, I attempted further separation with individual vlans and i've reached a point where i'll be rolling back for the time being. As far as I know, the Ubiquiti Edgerouter X SFP does not have multicast routing functionality, so uPNP on the music server vlan simply does not reach my wireless control point. Per the internet, there are methods using a debian server to play a role in performing multicast routing capabilities but i'd rather go with a router with native support, as I do not want to introduce another device to this network unless I absolutely must.

 

In other news, the BS-GS2016P (bone stock) with the configurations @austinpop posted sounds very good. I tried the top ports just for giggles and I would describe the presentation as a bit sharp in the vocal range. In stock form, I feel that the impact on bass/mids is well worth it. Looking forward to feeding this switch better power in the future.

[ASRMichael]

9 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said:

There are denser materials that will add even more weight.  That it is used in pianos is irrelevant.  The only value that I can see(!) is that it looks nice.

Taiko use this wood as an Isolation platform. Have you tested it?

[lmitche]

15 minutes ago, ASRMichael said:

Taiko use this wood as an Isolation platform. Have you tested it?

 

Last year Emile sent me three Daiza vibration damping and control platforms of three different sizes. The big one is under my heavy Modwright KWA150 SE amp, one under an LPS1.2 powering an Adnaco USB hub, and the smallest under my DAC. All are made from Panzerholtz and have anti-vibration grooves cut into the bottom. Each is supported by three legs. Here is a picture.

 

https://taikoaudio.com/product/daiza/

 

They sound terrific! The DAC platform had the most impact here so start there. Highly recommended.

 

I like ASRMichael's use of Panzerholtz wood in his build. Way cool!

 

Larry

[Johnseye]

32 minutes ago, ASRMichael said:

Taiko use this wood as an Isolation platform. Have you tested it?

 

18 minutes ago, lmitche said:

 

Last year Emile sent me three Daiza vibration damping and control platforms of three different sizes. The big one is under my heavy Modwright KWA150 SE amp, one under an LPS1.2 powering an Adnaco USB hub, and the smallest under my DAC. All are made from Panzerholtz and have anti-vibration grooves cut into the bottom. Each is supported by three legs. Here is a picture.

 

https://taikoaudio.com/product/daiza/

 

They sound terrific! The DAC platform had the most impact here so start there. Highly recommended.

 

I like ASRMichael's use of Panzerholtz wood in his build. Way cool!

 

Larry

 

I know there's some value in controlling vibration wherever possible. 

 

I've personally tried Critical Mass shelves or platforms, which they call filters. I compared it to a thick block of maple, common for turntables. How much better panzerholtz wood is compared to these options I don't know. I didn't hear much of a difference personally. I only did this experiment for my turntable. If you own one you know how sensitive the cart is. Besides listening to music I would tapp on the platform listening for a discernable change. Not enough there to justify the cost of a Critical Mass platform. Just better places to invest. Unlimited budget? Sure, why not. 

 

http://www.criticalmasssystems.com/

 

I do isolate all my equipment with tungsten carbide berrings in polished aluminum cups on top of Herbie's isolation material. In theory it helps. It's on the micro list of improvements. 

 

[Kal Rubinson]

1 hour ago, ASRMichael said:

Taiko use this wood as an Isolation platform. Have you tested it?

No and I am not likely to do so.

[Nenon]

6 hours ago, ASRMichael said:

HPlex H5 base plate removed, and replaced with Panzerholz Wood (it’s so heavy & dense). 

Nice.

 

6 hours ago, ASRMichael said:

I’ll report on SQ tomorrow! 

Can't wait. Those are the kind of tests we need to do and share. Those are the type of tests that keep developing the DIY community.

 

4 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

There are denser materials that will add even more weight.

Osmium?

 

4 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

That it is used in pianos is irrelevant.  The only value that I can see(!) is that it looks nice.

3 hours ago, Kal Rubinson said:

No and I am not likely to do so.

What's the purpose of your previous comment if you have not tried it and not likely to do? How do your comments help our DIY community? 

 

4 hours ago, lmitche said:

They sound terrific! The DAC platform had the most impact here so start there. Highly recommended.

Thank you for the feedback. I have been planning to try them for some time too. May do sooner... 

[auricgoldfinger]

4 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

 

I know there's some value in controlling vibration wherever possible. 

 

I've personally tried Critical Mass shelves or platforms, which they call filters. I compared it to a thick block of maple, common for turntables. How much better panzerholtz wood is compared to these options I don't know. I didn't hear much of a difference personally. I only did this experiment for my turntable. If you own one you know how sensitive the cart is. Besides listening to music I would tapp on the platform listening for a discernable change. Not enough there to justify the cost of a Critical Mass platform. Just better places to invest. Unlimited budget? Sure, why not. 

 

http://www.criticalmasssystems.com/

 

I do isolate all my equipment with tungsten carbide berrings in polished aluminum cups on top of Herbie's isolation material. In theory it helps. It's on the micro list of improvements. 

 

 

Several Extreme owners rave about the CMS footers.

[Johnseye]

18 minutes ago, auricgoldfinger said:

 

Several Extreme owners rave about the CMS footers.

 

Yup I know.  I had the footers under the platform.  Never tried them against the berring/cups but probably should have.

 

If I were to replace my current rack with a Critical Mass rack it would cost around $6k.  Had there been any significant difference with the turntable I would have done it.  Who knows, maybe replacing the entire thing instead of just a shelf would compound the result, but there's a lot you can do with $6k.

 

[lmitche]

18 hours ago, rickca said:

Yes, exactly.  And if one sounds better than the other, why?

 

I acknowledge @StreamFidelity's point that an i7-10700 may just be a lower binned i9-10900K that didn't test well enough to meet i9-10900K specs.

 

I spent nearly a year in Burlington, VT testing the PS3 chip at an IBM manufacturing facility.  The amount of test data collected about each chip is mind boggling, way beyond any published specs. 

Hi Rick,

 

I haven't sound tested two processors from the same processor family with two different TDPs, frequency curves, etc.

 

Rajiv's posts above seem like a definite example of doing so at the turbo frequency ceiling of those processors. His finding that with Euphony the higher frequency processor sounds best is consistent with other reports of the best configurations with Euphony.

 

There are at least two other points on the curve to measure, base frequency and low power frequency. As Euphony sounds best at higher frequencies, that top frequency point is relevant in this test case. There are other software solutions that sound great at the other points on the curve.

 

Unfortunately in the articles you referenced above the power use charts of the newest processors from both Intel and AMD suggest active cooling is necessary for any use of turbo mode. This implies that for passive cooling we are stuck at the base frequency for many of these new processors. Even then, base TDPs of 105 watts and above are higher than passive case ratings.

 

This also implies that building an Hqplayer upsampling machine with the new EC modulators is going to require air or even water cooling solutions. The same may be true for an Euphony build or any other software that runs best at peak (turbo) processing frequency.

 

Perhaps we should look into how best to avoid electrical noise when powering a fan and/or pump? There is no requirement to power these from motherboard headers. Mechanical noise is less of an issue with first class cooling solutions.

 

Lastly there is the issue of high current, affordable linear power supplies.

[Kal Rubinson]

9 hours ago, Nenon said:

What's the purpose of your previous comment if you have not tried it and not likely to do?

To question the validity of the proposition in the hope that there is something objective behind it.

[ASRMichael]

1 hour ago, Kal Rubinson said:

To question the validity of the proposition in the hope that there is something objective behind it.

Thank you for your valuable input to this DIY thread! 
 

I would send it to you for you to review but suspect you have came to your conclusion already.

[guiltyboxswapper]

15 hours ago, lmitche said:

I like ASRMichael's use of Panzerholtz wood in his build. Way cool!

 

Taiko Audio once produced a copper plate + panzerholtz upgrade for the T+A DAC 8 DSD.  It involved Panzerholz bed for the PCB itself, along with Panzerholz feet inserts. 

 

To summarise, I also have the double Daiza platforms under the same DAC.  Removing the double Daiza platform showed in my case little delta from simply using the copper + panzerholz feet supplied in the above kit.  

 

I still keep the double Daiza's for the added height, though!

 

edit: the impact of the copper + Panzerholz was rather dramatic.  One of those "that cant be possible?!?" moments.  

[Kal Rubinson]

28 minutes ago, ASRMichael said:

I would send it to you for you to review but suspect you have came to your conclusion already.

I cannot say that I have concluded that it cannot work but I have not seen any compelling reason to bother with it.  It is always better to find a receptive reviewer just as I prefer to review products that, for various reasons, appeal to me emotionally or intellectually. 

[matthias]

15 hours ago, lmitche said:

 

Last year Emile sent me three Daiza vibration damping and control platforms of three different sizes. The big one is under my heavy Modwright KWA150 SE amp, one under an LPS1.2 powering an Adnaco USB hub, and the smallest under my DAC. All are made from Panzerholtz and have anti-vibration grooves cut into the bottom. Each is supported by three legs. Here is a picture.

 

https://taikoaudio.com/product/daiza/

 

They sound terrific! The DAC platform had the most impact here so start there. Highly recommended.

 

I like ASRMichael's use of Panzerholtz wood in his build. Way cool!

 

Larry

 

Hi Larry,

 

how do you couple your devices to the Daiza platforms?

Do you use the stock feet or special ones?

Emile mentioned on WBF to not use any compliant material for the feet and most stock ones are compliant.

Thanks

 

Matt