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A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming


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Most important: please realize this thread is about bleeding edge experimentation and discovery. No one has The Answer™. If you are not into tweaking, just know that you can have a musically satisfying system without doing any of the nutty things we do here.

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4 hours ago, rickca said:

Quite simply, other things being equal, would a 65W i7-10700 sound the same as a 125W i7-10700K or would one of them sound better?

 

I think the hardest thing to get right is sizing the PSU for both machines. This is complicated by the fact that the actual power demand is so dependent on energy required to:

  • simply POST the machine, given current BIOS settings
  • boot into the OS, given the energy management policy of the OS - e.g. frequency settings and governors in AS and Euphony
  • run the music server workload. We're assuming vanishingly low CPU utilization for native sample-rate playback
  • run other non-music workloads
    • system and application updates
    • library scans
  • Other applications.

What my experience showed me is that the 8700K sounded better than the 8700T at the same operating frequency:

  • IF the PSU is big enough to easily energize both CPUs for all the factors above, and
  • when using the performance governor (default) in Euphony that sets and holds the CPU frequency to the max value specified in the settings.

Does this prove anything? Nope. And if asking on any other OS than Euphony, without knowing how the OS will control CPU frequency dynamically, I wouldn't be able to say. But certainly for Euphony, my inclination would be to go with the K CPU, if you're confident of your PSU's capacity.

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On 6/20/2020 at 10:05 PM, ASRMichael said:

Long day to say the least! 10 hour shift actually!!!

 

HPlex H5 base plate removed, and replaced with Panzerholz Wood (it’s so heavy & dense). 
 

I’ll deal with aesthetics later! For now just used black isolation tape. 
 

I didn’t weigh my server but suspect it’s over 35lbs. Bloody heavy! 
 

As you can see from photo I left extra wood at the rear so cable sit on the wood also. 
 

I’ll report on SQ tomorrow! 
 

@Nenon

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After a few days of listening, well after first 30 seconds I new something good had changed, I sat and listened to a handful of well known songs and realised it’s the bass definition has increased, and a little increase in everything else. Bass Is fast & louder, punchier, without losing control. Maybe more life to the music now!  
 

I revisited this yesterday, played other well known song & same thing! 
 

I’m terrible at explaining SQ increases. All I say is, I’ve spent in excess of 1k+ in individual cables & not got an increase like the Panzerholz wood upgrade. For $200 it’s really well worth doing. 
 

Note my combination of Panzerholz wood is in conjunction with Symposium rollerblocks & shelves. 
 

I’m now planning to use in my SJ LPS, & keep going from there. 
 

At last an upgrade that doesn’t cost thousands!!! 
 

@Nenon would you be interested trying this also?

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43 minutes ago, ASRMichael said:

@Nenon would you be interested trying this also?

 

I am interested! Hopefully that does not automatically add me to the Stereophile's Fools List :).

My only concern is heat dissipation. Did you drill any ventilation holes? 

I am also guessing the spiral grooves on the Daiza platform play a big role.

TaikoAudio_Daiza_B-1024x768.thumb.jpg.a8fcd776dffeaee088c43b5c5b68fb13.jpg

 

I'll ping you on PM.

 

Industry disclosure:
https://chicagohifi.com

Dealer for: Taiko Audio, Conrad Johnson, Audio Mirror, and Sean Jacobs

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My understanding is that the spirals are to tune resonant modes.  From a DIY perspective, the accelerometers in our phones are pretty damn sensitive.  When you have your servers properly mass loaded, may be useful in dialing in and tuning the bases.

 

 

ATT Fiber -> EdgeRouter X SFP -> Taiko Audio Extreme -> Vinnie Rossi L2i-SE w/ Level 2 DAC -> Voxativ 9.87 speakers w/ 4D drivers

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45 minutes ago, Nenon said:

 

I am interested! Hopefully that does not automatically add me to the Stereophile's Fools List :).

My only concern is heat dissipation. Did you drill any ventilation holes? 

I am also guessing the spiral grooves on the Daiza platform play a big role.

TaikoAudio_Daiza_B-1024x768.thumb.jpg.a8fcd776dffeaee088c43b5c5b68fb13.jpg

 

I'll ping you on PM.

 

Hi, no holes. Although if you look at picture. There’s a slight gap at front. 
 

My temps whilst playing Stylus for hours is around 35c. 
 

Music been playing flat out 24 hours per day is Saturday. All seem fine. 

E89C8CB3-8C39-4B41-B9A2-41F5244389FC.jpeg

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On 6/21/2020 at 1:44 AM, Exocer said:

In other news, the BS-GS2016P (bone stock) with the configurations @austinpop posted sounds very good. I tried the top ports just for giggles and I would describe the presentation as a bit sharp in the vocal range. In stock form, I feel that the impact on bass/mids is well worth it. Looking forward to feeding this switch better power in the future.

 

Hello again!

How's it possible to be informed of these configurations?

I'd be gald if I had any information available.

Thanks in advance.

 

Design & Manufacture of High Fidelity Audio Equipment
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36 minutes ago, Peter Avgeris said:

Hello Michael.

I am using 2x Seasonic Platinum fanless rated at 400 Watts.

I have not moved to Linear supplies yet, I plan to do so after I finish up everything.

Peter I expect that why you think low power servers are better than high power. I thought the same till I invested in Sean Jacobs LPS. Great power supplies take away the issues with high clock speed CPU’s, & bring loads of benefits. 
 

Believe me, I had the journey, like others on this forum too! 

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14 minutes ago, Peter Avgeris said:

OK, these are not configurations, they are upgrades / modifications of the original machines. They surely play a major role. Do you apply any specialized settings through the interface?

 

From that post:

 

"I set the Buffalo to the following settings:

top row of ports off

Ports 2/4/6/8 at 100Mbps, 10/12/14/16 at 1Gbps

LLDP off

802.3az off (aka EEE) on all ports

ADP (Auto power down) off on all ports

Flow Control is ON - this is off by default. "

 

This post as well:

 

 

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3 hours ago, Exocer said:

Excited for your feedback. Pardon my ignorance on the topic but would removing the feet and placing the device directly on the Daiza further improve vibration control characteristics? (or is it the complete opposite?)

 

The best place to start is direct coupling between your device (in this case DAC) and the Daiza.  On my Chord DAVE, I use 3 small ceramic tiles between the DAC case and Daiza (rubber feet are dangling).

 

Once you have that baseline, then listen again with rubber feet directly against Daiza.  Things may be better or they may be worse, but you'll need to be able to listen to find out (the entire mechanical system will have different mechanical properties....think of the rubber feet like adding a capacitor to a circuit).  The Daiza is about draining vibrations away (resistor).  A direct coupling to the DAC case will give you a solid baseline, then you can start adding more complex factors (rubber feet) into the mix.

 

For me, I lean very heavily into a Chesky binaural surround demo called "Four Voices".  It has four people, two in front, two in back, taking turns talking.  I've found that vibrational control on my DAC results in a HUGE increase in depth resolution (or put another way, vibrations have an outsized impact in deteriorating depth resolution).  The more I dial in vibrational control, the more natural and holographic the soundstage becomes.  When the voices behind me are as detailed and nuanced and placed in space as the voices in front of me, I know I'm in the right place.

 

The tough part here is that you're tuning vibrational modes to be away from wherever your DAC is sensitive, and draining away vibrational energy so it doesn't induce electrical noise in your DAC.  Details will vary from person to person and set up to set up (where in the room resonant modes are, cabinetry, specific electronic elements in your DAC, etc).  Critical to have a way to measure when things are getting better (in my case, depth resolution) so you don't drive yourself nuts randomly trying things.

 

All that being said, the lift in SQ I've gotten in paying attention to vibrations is second only to power, and relatively inexpensive if you're using passive components (I have not tried active vibration isolation for audio).  YMMV.

 

 

ATT Fiber -> EdgeRouter X SFP -> Taiko Audio Extreme -> Vinnie Rossi L2i-SE w/ Level 2 DAC -> Voxativ 9.87 speakers w/ 4D drivers

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@ray-dude If i recall, It took me months to find the right placement for each of the Symposium feet. 
 

I see builds where there are 4 feet equally spaced out in a square. Where you place feet is really important.
 

I’m still playing with my new server build....My OCD is in overload at present!!! 😂

 

It’s either my ears or my OCD! 

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On my daydream list is to use an accelerometer app on my phone to measure vibrations, and make some correlation with what I'm hearing.  That would make tuning infinitely faster

 

That being said, 80% optimized is AMAZING, so I'm happy taking a detour into network optimization now ;)

 

I am still trying to get my head around vibration isolation for speakers.  I have my speakers on isolated platforms, but it is very unclear to me what a SQ mechanism could be, or even if I'm hearing something material.  Whenever I move speakers, I use mono pink noise to get to phase alignment (<1mm), so it takes a bit of effort to do any sort of A/B (alas).  Are you seeing a big benefit with speakers on platforms with isolation?

 

 

 

ATT Fiber -> EdgeRouter X SFP -> Taiko Audio Extreme -> Vinnie Rossi L2i-SE w/ Level 2 DAC -> Voxativ 9.87 speakers w/ 4D drivers

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1 minute ago, ray-dude said:

On my daydream list is to use an accelerometer app on my phone to measure vibrations, and make some correlation with what I'm hearing.  That would make tuning infinitely faster

 

That being said, 80% optimized is AMAZING, so I'm happy taking a detour into network optimization now ;)

 

I am still trying to get my head around vibration isolation for speakers.  I have my speakers on isolated platforms, but it is very unclear to me what a SQ mechanism could be, or even if I'm hearing something material.  Whenever I move speakers, I use mono pink noise to get to phase alignment (<1mm), so it takes a bit of effort to do any sort of A/B (alas).  Are you seeing a big benefit with speakers on platforms with isolation?

 

 

 

All sounds very technical! 
 

Yes, If I was to keep only one thing it would be my platform for speakers. Bass used to be flabby, now it’s really fast/punchy. Much better control also. 
 

I recently put Rollerblocks under the platform. Actually cut out circular shaped discs on my carpet so the rollerblocks sit on concrete floor, then platforms on top, then speakers on platforms. This gave another leap in SQ. mainly with bass control again, bass lot more prominent as well. 

The Energy drain that happens in these platform is crazy! When you touch them you realise how much energy is being taking out if the speakers (which can only be a good thing)! 

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40 minutes ago, ray-dude said:

, so I'm happy taking a detour into network optimization now ;)

 

Hey Ray,

 

Quick side question as this thread has been a bit wooden lately 😉

 

I saw you've sold your EtherRegen. Out of interest what are you going with instead? Optical into your Extreme from an OM? Or you going for a Melco S100 or the M12 Gold doofer or suchlike? Or something else entirely?

 

Cheers,

Alan

 

Synergistic Research Powercell UEF SE > Sonore OpticalModule (LPS-1.2 & DXP-1A5DSC) > EtherRegen (SR4T & DXP-1A5DSC) > (Sablon 2020 LAN) Innuos PhoenixNet > Muon Streaming System > Grimm Audio MU1 server > (Sablon AES) Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC > PS Audio M1200 monoblocks > Salk Sound Supercharged Songtowers

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Thanks Ray,

 

Mate it's hard to keep up. Even with a diagram!

 

Playing around with my own network too. But still in the planning/folly stage.

 

Thanks for the detailed reply. Be interested to see where it all lands.

 

Cheers,

Alan

Synergistic Research Powercell UEF SE > Sonore OpticalModule (LPS-1.2 & DXP-1A5DSC) > EtherRegen (SR4T & DXP-1A5DSC) > (Sablon 2020 LAN) Innuos PhoenixNet > Muon Streaming System > Grimm Audio MU1 server > (Sablon AES) Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC > PS Audio M1200 monoblocks > Salk Sound Supercharged Songtowers

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3 minutes ago, BigAlMc said:

Playing around with my own network too. But still in the planning/folly stage.

 

 

I'm definitely in the "more stubborn than clever" stage!  I suspect once Emile pushes out his beta of the Taiko Audio Server, the rules of the game will change again as the computer/power budget of the box gets turned upside down (again)

ATT Fiber -> EdgeRouter X SFP -> Taiko Audio Extreme -> Vinnie Rossi L2i-SE w/ Level 2 DAC -> Voxativ 9.87 speakers w/ 4D drivers

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3 hours ago, ASRMichael said:

Peter I expect that why you think low power servers are better than high power. I thought the same till I invested in Sean Jacobs LPS. Great power supplies take away the issues with high clock speed CPU’s, & bring loads of benefits. 
 

Believe me, I had the journey, like others on this forum too! 

Hi Michael. Thank you for your message. I do not think that low power cpus are necessarily better than low power ones. I have observed that higher clock speeds lead to increased dynamics & liveliness. But I cannot link the power to this benefit. Power is the product of voltage by current. Voltage is the same. There cannot be any proof at all that high current leads to better sound. On the contrary lower current *has* many advantages against high power but again this does not necessarily mean better SQ. I hope that you will agree on this. 

 

What I have observed without hesitation and exception so far is that splitting processes in more than one core, hyperthreading and turbo boost lead to worse sound. 

 

I am now using a high power Xeon CPU, originally quad core running with 2 cores at the highest speed that can climb to. It is 3.6GHz. It is a 135W TDP cpu but does not draw any considerable amount of power. I am not running HQPlayer but only Euphony/Stylus. I plan to build my linear power supplies during the next 2 months with absolutely crazy characteristics. It is then that I will have the final results. The Seasonic PSUs that I am using sound very good but of course not up to the level of the best linear supplies. 

But again, I can't link higher current to higher SQ. The headroom is what really matters and the ability of the power supply to provide the required current. I hope you will agree on this... 

Design & Manufacture of High Fidelity Audio Equipment
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