A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[Dev]

On 10/23/2019 at 3:17 PM, austinpop said:

Contrary to what many of our naysayers may think, I suspect most of us would be happy to give up upstream tinkering if one day our DACs became completely immune to upstream effects - both good and bad.

 

Couldn’t agree more...

This has been my day one wish list. Just imagine a clean audio rack without any of those trinkets and clutters. I would be the first one to buy such a DAC, off coarse priced within reasons.

[k-man]

PLEEAASEEE let there be an AS article on the etherRegen!! So far we've seen the whole trilogy of Rendu reviews (micro, ultra, optical) yet nothing on any Uptone products 

[ray-dude]

9 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

Hi ray-dude,

Very nice, comprehensive write-up. One quick question. I notice you are using a single LPS1.2 with Ghent Audio Y DC cable to power both ODX clean and dirty sides, but  doesn’t that negate the isolation, providing a copper path between the 2 sides? 

 

 

That is true.  That was an experiment on my part (benefit of better power vs the cost of compromised isolation).  The figure in the reviewcan be confusing, since it has a lot of the different configurations I was fiddling with.

 

What I am currently running is LPS 1.2 to the clean side of ODX (closest to DAC) and a PowerAdd Pilot2 laptop battery to the dirty side of ODX.  I found the LPS 1.2 to have more of a positive impact on the clean side.  I have not yet had access to a third LPS 1.2 to try having one on both sides of the ODX (my other LPS 1.2 is powering my ISORegen)

[bobfa]

3 hours ago, austinpop said:

I wish!

 

2 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

You know that will happen. Sooner than later.  

I wish too, but I wish more that Rajiv does it .  After that dCS review!!! WOW!

 

 

[sandyk]

On ‎10‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 3:50 AM, k-man said:

PLEEAASEEE let there be an AS article on the etherRegen!! So far we've seen the whole trilogy of Rendu reviews (micro, ultra, optical) yet nothing on any Uptone products 

 

Unfortunately , such an article is likely to come under heavy attack by several members with demands for measurements and DBTs to be performed .   

To quote an ex member of this forum

Quote

any whiff of commercial enterprise is immediately dismissed & demeaned as snake-oil & not to be trusted

 

[[email protected]]

On 10/24/2019 at 9:03 PM, mourip said:

Consider starting another thread for technical arguments or else contacting folks by PM?

well, i decide to start new thread

 

[mourip]

On 10/28/2019 at 11:43 AM, [email protected] said:

well, i decide to start new thread

 

Great. I will check it out. I have purchased several regulator boards from you in the past. Nice to have input from a member of the trade.

 

Great. I have previously purchased several regulator boards from your website and they made a nice difference. Glad to have input from a member of the trade.

[motberg]

On 10/30/2019 at 9:05 PM, mourip said:

 

Great. I have previously purchased several regulator boards from your website and they made a nice difference. Glad to have input from a member of the trade.

agree, I have at least 6 of the LDOVR boxes, and this adds a nice touch of stability to my DC requirements

In my experience, LPS-1 + SR LDOVR box > LPS-1.2

[seeteeyou]

On 8/9/2019 at 1:49 AM, Nenon said:

As for the best servers, look up Taiko Extreme. That to me looks like the top server on the market. But I've never seen or heard one. Check out PinkFaun 2.16x, Innuos Statement, etc. There are plenty of options at any price level. 

 

Here's the verdict

 

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/innuos-statement-review/post?postid=1822219#1822219

Quote

Then I heard the SGM Extreme...Ouch, this server is on a completely another level , probably not as smooth sounding as the Statement but in terms of dynamics,resolution,image there is no comparison. ( the price is different as well...) To go back to my ranking, to me the gap between the number 1 and number 2 is much much wider than between the number 2 vs number 3.

 

IMHO it's such a mind-boggling read

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-68#post-605309

[flkin]

I wonder how many people have actually heard the SGM Extreme and the Pink Faun 2.16x?
 

Preferably in the same system? They have both been out for a while now. 

[FredM]

5 hours ago, flkin said:

I wonder how many people have actually heard the SGM Extreme and the Pink Faun 2.16x?
 

Preferably in the same system? They have both been out for a while now. 

Exactly, that’s key. I only heard them on a separate occasion, so my impressions aren’t worth anything. 

[RickyV]

6 hours ago, flkin said:

I wonder how many people have actually heard the SGM Extreme and the Pink Faun 2.16x?
 

Preferably in the same system? They have both been out for a while now. 

 

54 minutes ago, FredM said:

Exactly, that’s key. I only heard them on a separate occasion, so my impressions aren’t worth anything. 

 

And what about the Grimm audio mu1 an other high quality  Dutchy server. I have heard them all on the x-fi show but not in direct comparison, pity. I really liked the mu1 with ls1 speakers.

[FredM]

1 hour ago, RickyV said:

 

 

And what about the Grimm audio mu1 an other high quality  Dutchy server. I have heard them all on the x-fi show but not in direct comparison, pity. I really liked the mu1 with ls1 speakers.

Funny that you mention the Grimm MU-1, imho a special server/player. As an one box solution it would actually be perfect for me, the FPGA board seems to be the magic ingredient (Grimm spend more time to develop the MU-1 than on their LS1  active speaker systeem). I heard the MU-1 a couple of times with their LS1, I have never ever heard anything this good, amazing. It’s not just the audiophile talk and superlatives: it brings emotion in an unheard realistic way (during one song, three times I had tears in my eye’s).
 

So, what do you guess, last month I bought the Grimm... LS1be+dmf active speaker system, haha 😄. With this full system overhaul I’ll now have to take a more gentle/budget friendly approach toward the digital front.
 

In case you’re interested, on Alpha Audio /youtube there is a 30min interview with Eelco Grimm about the MU-1 (~€10.000). The interview is in Dutch so I hope subtitles are available for non-dutchies. Besides being the co-founder of Grimm Audio, he’s also an university lecturer and is active in fighting the loudness war (recently he release a study about normalisation in cooperation with Tidal based on a 4.2 million albums analysis).

[RickyV]

3 hours ago, FredM said:

Funny that you mention the Grimm MU-1, imho a special server/player. As an one box solution it would actually be perfect for me, the FPGA board seems to be the magic ingredient (Grimm spend more time to develop the MU-1 than on their LS1  active speaker systeem). I heard the MU-1 a couple of times with their LS1, I have never ever heard anything this good, amazing. It’s not just the audiophile talk and superlatives: it brings emotion in an unheard realistic way (during one song, three times I had tears in my eye’s).
 

So, what do you guess, last month I bought the Grimm... LS1be+dmf active speaker system, haha 😄. With this full system overhaul I’ll now have to take a more gentle/budget friendly approach toward the digital front.
 

In case you’re interested, on Alpha Audio /youtube there is a 30min interview with Eelco Grimm about the MU-1 (~€10.000). The interview is in Dutch so I hope subtitles are available for non-dutchies. Besides being the co-founder of Grimm Audio, he’s also an university lecturer and is active in fighting the loudness war (recently he release a study about normalisation in cooperation with Tidal based on a 4.2 million albums analysis).

wow Fred congratulations on your ls1be purchase that is quite a system. I have talked to Guido Tent a few time, really smart guy, and I bought his CD player years ago. 
Would be nice to have a battle of the Dutchies servers to see what is what but I think it is a little to much to ask for. 

 

[FredM]

2 hours ago, RickyV said:

wow Fred congratulations on your ls1be purchase that is quite a system. I have talked to Guido Tent a few time, really smart guy, and I bought his CD player years ago. 
Would be nice to have a battle of the Dutchies servers to see what is what but I think it is a little to much to ask for. 

 

 

Thanks, good that you also mention Guido Tent, fellow Grimm owner and well respected engineer. I’m thrilled with the LS1’s, it plays on a completely other level (data point, previous setup: Harbeth Compact 3, Primaluna Dialogue Premium Integrated HP, Metrum Onyx DAC). A direct comparison between the server/streamer giants would be awesome.

 

In my situation I’m now pondering about a NUC* with Euphony/StylesEP and an endpoint (especially looking forward to the Pinkfaun Scion and Sonnet Hermes)

 

* Currently looking into these for Roon Core 

(With thanks to @seeteeyou for previously sharing the site)

http://www.fanlesstech.com/2019/10/incus-a300-actual-pictures.html

[Gavin1977]

Probably of interest to others:

 

https://www.udoo.org/udoo-bolt/

 

Embeded Ryzen with ECC support, TDP-down of 12 W and TDP-up of 25 W.  Typical 20V 2.25A (45W) power supply min once memory/SSD is installed, so existing linear power supplies for NUCs like the Paul Hynes SR4 'should' work fine.

 

Also check out the new thread on the LattePanda Alpha - what's really interesting about this Intel Core M3 based system is its 5w/2A amp current draw as this removes the need for costly large amperage linear power supplies to achieve a server/endpoint config.

 

But is the use of Apacer Wide Temperature ECC RAM, as opposed to Non-ECC, worth the extra expense and higher power envelope of the Udoo Bolt V8? Anyone here undertaken comparisions?

 

I ask because the LattePanda Alpha's lower power requirements means that potentially two LattePandas could be used in a server/endpoint config and probably still be powered by a single NUC linear power supply if you're careful about power budget.

[FredM]

On 11/4/2019 at 4:30 PM, FredM said:

Funny that you mention the Grimm MU-1, imho a special server/player. As an one box solution it would actually be perfect for me, the FPGA board seems to be the magic ingredient (Grimm spend more time to develop the MU-1 than on their LS1  active speaker systeem). I heard the MU-1 a couple of times with their LS1, I have never ever heard anything this good, amazing. It’s not just the audiophile talk and superlatives: it brings emotion in an unheard realistic way (during one song, three times I had tears in my eye’s).
 

So, what do you guess, last month I bought the Grimm... LS1be+dmf active speaker system, haha 😄. With this full system overhaul I’ll now have to take a more gentle/budget friendly approach toward the digital front.
 

In case you’re interested, on Alpha Audio /youtube there is a 30min interview with Eelco Grimm about the MU-1 (~€10.000). The interview is in Dutch so I hope subtitles are available for non-dutchies. Besides being the co-founder of Grimm Audio, he’s also an university lecturer and is active in fighting the loudness war (recently he release a study about normalisation in cooperation with Tidal based on a 4.2 million albums analysis).

Can’t edit the post above, the version with English subtitles is now available: 

 

[RickyV]

If people have looked in there Tidal settings and are wondering what loudness normalization is, read this. Also from the hands of Eelco Grimm.

 

https://www.audioxpress.com/news/tidal-implements-album-loudness-normalization-and-activates-it-by-default-for-mobile-players

[RickyV]

2 hours ago, FredM said:

Can’t edit the post above, the version with English subtitles is now available: 

 

Thanks @FredM  very interesting interview. I really like those interviews where audio designers talk that enthusiastically/passionate about their product. The problem is now I want a mu1 and a dCS Bartók of course, will need a few extra jobs too. 😢

[Gavin1977]

1 hour ago, RickyV said:

If people have looked in there Tidal settings and are wondering what loudness normalization is, read this. Also from the hands of Eelco Grimm.

 

https://www.audioxpress.com/news/tidal-implements-album-loudness-normalization-and-activates-it-by-default-for-mobile-players

Nice post - really positive

[seeteeyou]

€13,500.00 Pink Faun Streamer 2.16 x

http://ultimate-audio.eu/wp-content/uploads/Pink-Faun-pricelist.pdf

 

£9,665.00 Antipodes Audio CX+EX

https://d11fdyfhxcs9cr.cloudfront.net/templates/32726/myimages/antipodes_pricing_2018_v2.pdf

 

A little bit of comparisons between the two

 

https://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/review/digital-reviews/music-server-reviews/pink-faun-2-16x-2-3/

 

Scion Roon Endpoint turned out to cost €2,090 while there will be another Scion DAC.

 

LAN bridge with Ultra OCXO option would be an intriguing alternative to NET Card FEMTO, though this flagship clock option is expected to cost £650

 

https://www.fidelityaudio.co.uk/c5-signature-ultra-low-jitter-clock-4461-p.asp

[Nenon]

Update on ECC memory:

 

As you probably know from some of my previous posts here, I have been running an Asus / Ryzen 7 3700x computer with Apacer ECC RAM for some time.  Since my motherboard supports ECC and Non-ECC RAM, I ordered some Non-ECC Apacer RAM to compare. I was always curious if my memory upgrade was so good because I used industrial RAM or because I used ECC RAM, or both. 

I removed the Apacer ECC RAM and installed Apacer Non-ECC RAM. I let it run for about 30 minutes (not sure if RAM needs break-in time / if that is enough or not). My impressions so far:

- Non-ECC and ECC sound different. 

- I like the ECC RAM better in my system. My immediate impression is that it opens up the soundstage and there is more air around the instruments. 

- The industrial Non-ECC is still a step up from the consumer memory. 

Disclaimer: My ECC memory has been running for hundreds of hours (perhaps a 4-digit number), and the Non-ECC is brand new. So if RAM takes time to break-in, that's not a fair test. I will let the Non-ECC RAM break-in and repeat the test in a month. It would probably be good to get some consumer grade ECC RAM and include in the test. A good test would be to compare Apacer Non-ECC RAM vs. consumer (non-Apacer) ECC RAM. 

 

BTW, for everyone who participated in the group order - your memory is on the way to you. Perhaps more people can post their impressions soon, so we have better analytics.

 

[bobfa]

19 minutes ago, Nenon said:

Update on ECC memory:

 

As you probably know from some of my previous posts here, I have been running an Asus / Ryzen 7 3700x computer with Apacer ECC RAM for some time.  Since my motherboard supports ECC and Non-ECC RAM, I ordered some Non-ECC Apacer RAM to compare. I was always curious if my memory upgrade was so good because I used industrial RAM or because I used ECC RAM, or both. 

I removed the Apacer ECC RAM and installed Apacer Non-ECC RAM. I let it run for about 30 minutes (not sure if RAM needs break-in time / if that is enough or not). My impressions so far:

- Non-ECC and ECC sound different. 

- I like the ECC RAM better in my system. My immediate impression is that it opens up the soundstage and there is more air around the instruments. 

- The industrial Non-ECC is still a step up from the consumer memory. 

Disclaimer: My ECC memory has been running for hundreds of hours (perhaps a 4-digit number), and the Non-ECC is brand new. So if RAM takes time to break-in, that's not a fair test. I will let the Non-ECC RAM break-in and repeat the test in a month. It would probably be good to get some consumer grade ECC RAM and include in the test. A good test would be to compare Apacer Non-ECC RAM vs. consumer (non-Apacer) ECC RAM. 

 

BTW, for everyone who participated in the group order - your memory is on the way to you. Perhaps more people can post their impressions soon, so we have better analytics.

 

My ECC RAM arrived today and I have installed it in my machine.  I did some listening and I want to wait some more to see if it "burns in".  I have been using consumer ECC RAM in my server for nine months.  I will give this some time.

 

The system sounds different.  Some of the electronic music I listen to is amazing. A couple of the female vocals felt a bit edgy.  

 

 Try

"Evil Dub" from Trentoemoller "The Last Resort".

 

BT

"Our Dark Garden" from. If the starts are Eternal So are you and I

"Flaming June" from Electronic Opus

 

Annie Lennox

"Into the West" from. The Lord of the Rings the return of the king

 

I should get some listening time this weekend.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LJONESATL]

1 hour ago, Nenon said:

Update on ECC memory:

 

As you probably know from some of my previous posts here, I have been running an Asus / Ryzen 7 3700x computer with Apacer ECC RAM for some time.  Since my motherboard supports ECC and Non-ECC RAM, I ordered some Non-ECC Apacer RAM to compare. I was always curious if my memory upgrade was so good because I used industrial RAM or because I used ECC RAM, or both. 

I removed the Apacer ECC RAM and installed Apacer Non-ECC RAM. I let it run for about 30 minutes (not sure if RAM needs break-in time / if that is enough or not). My impressions so far:

- Non-ECC and ECC sound different. 

- I like the ECC RAM better in my system. My immediate impression is that it opens up the soundstage and there is more air around the instruments. 

- The industrial Non-ECC is still a step up from the consumer memory. 

Disclaimer: My ECC memory has been running for hundreds of hours (perhaps a 4-digit number), and the Non-ECC is brand new. So if RAM takes time to break-in, that's not a fair test. I will let the Non-ECC RAM break-in and repeat the test in a month. It would probably be good to get some consumer grade ECC RAM and include in the test. A good test would be to compare Apacer Non-ECC RAM vs. consumer (non-Apacer) ECC RAM. 

 

BTW, for everyone who participated in the group order - your memory is on the way to you. Perhaps more people can post their impressions soon, so we have better analytics.

 

I'm running the same Asus board and Rysen 7 3700X audio pc and received my Apacer ECC RAM last week.  It's been burning in 24/7 for about a week now.  Although it's hard to do an A B comparison, I noticed a difference right away with the ECC Apacer RAM the minute I installed it.  I like it better in my system and will not be going back to consumer grade.  I ordered 4 sticks of 8gb RAM thinking I'd use 2 in one setup, and the other 2 sticks in another.  I've been following this thread closely and after reading that others were noticing a difference with just 1 stick vs. 2, I've decided to just go with 1 8gb stick.  I'm very happy with what I'm hearing.  Thought I'd put in my two cents......

[Energy]

On 11/6/2019 at 1:14 AM, Gavin1977 said:

Probably of interest to others:

 

https://www.udoo.org/udoo-bolt/

 

Embeded Ryzen with ECC support, TDP-down of 12 W and TDP-up of 25 W.  Typical 20V 2.25A (45W) power supply min once memory/SSD is installed, so existing linear power supplies for NUCs like the Paul Hynes SR4 'should' work fine.

 

Also check out the new thread on the LattePanda Alpha - what's really interesting about this Intel Core M3 based system is its 5w/2A amp current draw as this removes the need for costly large amperage linear power supplies to achieve a server/endpoint config.

 

But is the use of Apacer Wide Temperature ECC RAM, as opposed to Non-ECC, worth the extra expense and higher power envelope of the Udoo Bolt V8? Anyone here undertaken comparisions?

 

I ask because the LattePanda Alpha's lower power requirements means that potentially two LattePandas could be used in a server/endpoint config and probably still be powered by a single NUC linear power supply if you're careful about power budget.

 

From what I noticed is that smaller form factors like NUC7i7 have components that act more like a Mini PC works better for transporting audio data than those with extra functionalities (like UDOO BOLT). There are other similar ones available on the market like this: https://www.quietpc.com/tranquilpc-mmdpc-001-v1605b where it is maximized with display ports, although at the cost of using a larger motherboard which would theoretically consume more power and possibly generate more noise.

 

My belief is that the most optimal AMD based endpoint would be one featuring a quad core (like the NUC7i7) with optimization in standard computer functionality while supporting ECC memory. The Asrock iBOX-V1000 accomplishes this for $549 with a fan-less case. Since it's a 4X4 (4" by 4") it should consume less power regardless if other similarly marketed products all follow the 12-25W specification. That wattage depends on whether certain functions like WiFi card, M.2, USB, SSD, Ethernet, or Video is connected.

 

I decided to go with the Asrock iBOX-V1000 method and run mine with AudioLinux via ramboot using a single stick of industrial memory called Innotech 8GB 2400MHz ECC RAM (M4D0-8GMSQWSJ). The device will be powered by a Farad Super 3. If there is room inside the unit I will add a JCAT USB Card and connect it to the M.2 socket using a converter cable. This should help isolate the noise that is generated by the endpoint and keep it away from the USB controller chip, thus reducing jitter and noise at the output before it is handed to a SOtM tX-USBultra. The tX-USBultra cleans up the USB signal even more before passing it onto the DAC. Also the tX-USBultra will send three of it's available clock outputs from it's internal sCLK-EX clock synthesizer to the endpoint so it can replace the clocks with higher phase noise (System, Ethernet Input, and USB output). I will post a photo once I finalize it sometime this month.

 

Glad everyone is enjoying Industrial RAM and ECC. I have found that it sounds a little more 3D when used in both the server and endpoint. Sound is a little denser with more air. Transients slightly easier to hear, but barely. Smoother transitions.

 

I am currently looking for a better storage device for my music server. It is using a Samsung 960 PRO M.2 and recently I found out that some M.2 NVME's have a built-in ECC called LDPC (Low Density Parity Check) to correct both hard-bit and soft-bit information during decoding. It is said that this lengthens the lifespan of the chips and so we could assume that ECC RAM will last longer too. Either way, upon doing more research I slightly concluded that running an SSD with ECC could lead to better sound quality since it could be powered by a linear power supply's 5V. Doing so may improve how these chips perform. Given the lower noise, it may help with timing and errors.