A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[drjimwillie]

Shot it down twice today in the use of Optane drives.....

 

 I have read this thread from the beginning. I found it in July and I just finished it today!! I like to read from the beginning before I’ll post something. Also, it slows down time, because you’re trying to catch up to the present moment.

 

 This is where I am today:  I’m saving to build a  NUC.

While I’ve been doing that I am  simplifying the  equipment I already have.

I needed a new NAS, so I bought the Fanless- Qnap HS 453dx NAS. It has a Celeron J4105 processor and 4GB of RAM. So basically it’s a NUC with 2 HDD Drive days and 2 M.2 SSD Drives. 

 I’m going to use it as a Music server. The advertising shows it running Roon.  I will use it to run Roon and hold an HDD with my music. I was not planning to use an SSD because of the noise. But, with reports of Optane being quiet enough to not make a difference, I thought that  I would try it for the performance boost it would give Roon. So I got a 32 GB Optane drive. After I installed it, I was told by Qnap that it does not support the octane drive. 

 Can you make a recommendation of SDD to replace the Obtane, please. M.2

Do you think Roon will run fine on the 6TB WD Red drive, so I do not need the SSD?

 

 Also, I have a CAPS  Pipeline server.  I am getting it ready to be a server for my NUC.  I am going to run the  Pipeline in AL/Ram.  For the moment it will be the endpoint, only running HQPe.  I don’t want to Boot from the stick,  so I planed to use an Optane drive. I had been told by supermicro tech-support that I can use Optane on this motherboard because it supports NVME. Today when I called to find which slot would be best, they told me the Optane would not work.  No NVME support.  After I told him I was using it as a server for music,  that the Optane would replace a 1TB SSD  to be removed because of “noise”, he became interested.  He told me I would not be able to boot from the Optane. He told me that he would help me, possibly make it work.  It feels a little risky to me. 

 I am wondering because I have the SOTM SATA filter on the SSD drive  in the  Pipeline currently,  maybe I use 32GB SATA drive, on that SOTM filter?

 

What do you think I should do, please?

 

It is always a wild ride.

 Thank you

Bill

[the_doc735]

10 hours ago, drjimwillie said:

Shot it down twice today in the use of Optane drives.....

 

 I have read this thread from the beginning. I found it in July and I just finished it today!! I like to read from the beginning before I’ll post something. Also, it slows down time, because you’re trying to catch up to the present moment.

 

 This is where I am today:  I’m saving to build a  NUC.

While I’ve been doing that I am  simplifying the  equipment I already have.

I needed a new NAS, so I bought the Fanless- Qnap HS 453dx NAS. It has a Celeron J4105 processor and 4GB of RAM. So basically it’s a NUC with 2 HDD Drive days and 2 M.2 SSD Drives. 

 I’m going to use it as a Music server. The advertising shows it running Roon.  I will use it to run Roon and hold an HDD with my music. I was not planning to use an SSD because of the noise. But, with reports of Optane being quiet enough to not make a difference, I thought that  I would try it for the performance boost it would give Roon. So I got a 32 GB Optane drive. After I installed it, I was told by Qnap that it does not support the octane drive. 

 Can you make a recommendation of SDD to replace the Obtane, please. M.2

Do you think Roon will run fine on the 6TB WD Red drive, so I do not need the SSD?

 

 Also, I have a CAPS  Pipeline server.  I am getting it ready to be a server for my NUC.  I am going to run the  Pipeline in AL/Ram.  For the moment it will be the endpoint, only running HQPe.  I don’t want to Boot from the stick,  so I planed to use an Optane drive. I had been told by supermicro tech-support that I can use Optane on this motherboard because it supports NVME. Today when I called to find which slot would be best, they told me the Optane would not work.  No NVME support.  After I told him I was using it as a server for music,  that the Optane would replace a 1TB SSD  to be removed because of “noise”, he became interested.  He told me I would not be able to boot from the Optane. He told me that he would help me, possibly make it work.  It feels a little risky to me. 

 I am wondering because I have the SOTM SATA filter on the SSD drive  in the  Pipeline currently,  maybe I use 32GB SATA drive, on that SOTM filter?

 

What do you think I should do, please?

 

It is always a wild ride.

 Thank you

Bill

I also have the SOtM SATA filter on the SSD drives in my syn.ds218+ with 6GB of RAM + Roon server + LPSU. Interesting to follow your progress!

[the_doc735]

6 hours ago, the_doc735 said:

I also have the SOtM SATA filter on the SSD drives in my syn.ds218+ with 6GB of RAM + Roon server + LPSU. Interesting to follow your progress!

+ SOtM fan filter.

[the_doc735]

Having been monitoring this thread for quite some time now and noticed the recent decline in NUC related posts, I'm wondering if the dust has finally started to settle a little?

 

I have searched this thread for: NUC/ENDPOINT/MEMORY and one or two other search combinations, but am unable to find a satisfactory answer, so I've decided to post up instead.

 

What are the most suitable NUC endpoints at the current time?

Whether to fit SSD/HDD, or non at all?

The optimum amount of memory (ram)?

Can optane be used with the NUC and what difference does it make?

Is the endpoint NUC more important than the server end?

 

I'm wanting to run AL from memory (boot from memory with a USB memory stick) F.Y.I.

If it turns out to be amazing I would even consider a fanless case as well.

 

I suspect a lot of people have searched for this cumulative & succinct answer (i.e. bring all of these pages down into one reply covering the most fundamental questions)? 

 

Many thanks in advance to you all!

[mourip]

2 hours ago, the_doc735 said:

Having been monitoring this thread for quite some time now and noticed the recent decline in NUC related posts, I'm wondering if the dust has finally started to settle a little?

 

I have searched this thread for: NUC/ENDPOINT/MEMORY and one or two other search combinations, but am unable to find a satisfactory answer, so I've decided to post up instead.

 

What are the most suitable NUC endpoints at the current time?

Whether to fit SSD/HDD, or non at all?

The optimum amount of memory (ram)?

Can optane be used with the NUC and what difference does it make?

Is the endpoint NUC more important than the server end?

 

I'm wanting to run AL from memory (boot from memory with a USB memory stick) F.Y.I.

If it turns out to be amazing I would even consider a fanless case as well.

 

I suspect a lot of people have searched for this cumulative & succinct answer (i.e. bring all of these pages down into one reply covering the most fundamental questions)? 

 

Many thanks in advance to you all!

 

You have asked the BIG question and one for which there is no, at least easy, answer. If you find it please let us know 🙂

 

One reason that activity has dropped off here could be that folks are now just listening to music?

 

I can only speak for myself but my plan has been to take the best tips from consistent and open minded posters and try them in my system. I have neither the time or patience to try out all of the combinations and permutations but the short version is that I now am very happy with my system.

 

Here is the short version:

1. AL running in ramroot extreme mode with USB drive pulled after boot.

2. NUC 7I5BNH with one processor dedicated to audio. Fan-less Akasa case

3. 8Gigs of memory - plenty

4. NUC running as Roon endpoint.

5. HDPlex LPS: 19v to NUC

6. No internal drives in NUC.

7. As many settings turned off in BIOS as have been recommended here.

8. My Roon Core is still running on Windows 10 Pro with Audiophile Optimizer. Fan-less case with another HDPlex LPS using 19v for board and 5v for internal SSDs. May try AL soon.

9. My Core server is relatively low powered as my Yggdrasil DAC only does 24/192 and so is not very processor demanding.

10. Clean side ethernet isolated from server and LAN using fiber optic media adapters. Clean side FMC powered by LPS.

11. Clean side AC isolated with an isolation transformer.

 

YMMV 🙂

[tapatrick]

7 hours ago, the_doc735 said:

 

Having been monitoring this thread for quite some time now and noticed the recent decline in NUC related posts, I'm wondering if the dust has finally started to settle a little?

I have been listening to music!

 

These are my brief answers to your questions based on my experiments and extensive listening. Other opinions may vary, but I believe there is a strong consensus on the basics as I studied this thread before committing to the AL NUC route and there is no looking back.

 

What are the most suitable NUC endpoints at the current time?

NUC7CJYH makes an excellent endpoint.

 

Whether to fit SSD/HDD, or non at all?

Definitely would not recommend any on the endpoint

 

The optimum amount of memory (ram)?

I tried 4gb and 8gb on the endpoint - 4gb is enough for running roonbridge

16gb is needed for the server

 

Can optane be used with the NUC and what difference does it make?

On the server yes, but I have not used one as I prefer no drives attached

 

Is the endpoint NUC more important than the server end?

Yes in my opinion but an NUC server adds an important improvement too

I have the NUC7PJYH as my server which is very reliable and has been running for a few months with out issue

 

I'm wanting to run AL from memory (boot from memory with a USB memory stick) F.Y.I.

If it turns out to be amazing I would even consider a fanless case as well.

All 3 are highly recommended - Yes to AL Ramboot, yes to booting from an USB stick then remove, yes definitely to a fanless case.

 

Hope this helps!

What are you waiting for

[austinpop]

Yes, I think most of us are just enjoying our systems, because they are sounding so good!

 

As you may recall from my review of the OCXO TLS DS-1 endpoint, it was a big improvement over the stock NUC7PJYH, but it still lacked some of the attributes of the i7DNBE in Plato X7D case, which was:

• more dense, fleshed out, and dimensional,
• had more bass extension.

The logical next step was to apply better clocking to the i7DNBE. Since the i7DNBE requires 3 clocks (24 MHz USB, 25 MHz Ethernet, 27 MHz HDMI), and since my tX-USBultra had 3 free clock points, I sent my i7DNBE and tX-USBultra to SOtM for them to mod. I also had them upgrade the tX with Evox caps, solid core silver DC cabling, and eABS-200 EMI/RFI paper.

 

I just received the gear back on Monday. While it was gone, I was driving the DAC directly from the output of the DS-1 (oh, the horror!). Firing up the reclocked i7DNBE and the upgraded tX-U, the sound quality improvement over DS-1 driving the DAC direct was jaw dropping. I then swapped between the i7DNBE and DS-1, both going through the tX-USBultra to the DAC. Definitely mission accomplished. The reclocked i7DNBE now has the resolution and openness of the DS-1, along with fuller, denser quality of the i7DNBE.

 

I had to leave today on a short trip, so I haven't yet had a chance to evaluate just the improvement in the tX-USBultra. Upon my return, I'll be comparing my upgraded tX-USBultra to a stock one (both reference clocked with Ref-10). Based on what I'm hearing, I suspect this is a big jump in SQ.

 

All in all, the combination of reclocked i7DNBE with upgraded tX-USBultra is sounding scary good!

 

Next up, I'll be evaluating the SOtM switch, and finally, a suitable server build. Stay tuned...

[mozes]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

The reclocked i7DNBE now has the resolution and openness of the DS-1, along with fuller, denser quality of the i7DNBE

So this confirms your previous finding with the DS-1 that clocking is very important even in the presence of AL/NUC. 

 

The golden trio to optimize, power, latency, and clocking.

[RickyV]

Hi @austinpop would it be possible to make a picture of the nuc board so we can see where the xo’s are located? And if you know wich is wich xo. 

 

Would be very helpful.

Thanks 

[BigAlMc]

6 hours ago, austinpop said:

Firing up the reclocked i7DNBE and the upgraded tX-U, the sound quality improvement over DS-1 driving the DAC direct was jaw dropping.

 

Goddammit Rajiv!

 

I'm loving the simplicity of just 2 AL NUCs (server and endpoint), with a power supply each. And you have to go an open the whole clocking and TX-USBUltra rabbit hole again 🙄

 

Worst part is that I have both a TX-USBUltra and SoTM master clock on hand. But the PSUs for each are currently re-purposed for the NUCs. Prospect of adding 2 components, 2 more PSUs and the associated wires back onto the rack doesn't appeal too much either. May just go ahead and sell them as I was planning before you tossed this cat amongst the pigeons.

 

I was thinking wait for the EtherRegen and then decide between that or the SoTM switch and then job done. Pft!

 

I guess I'll await your further reports with as much trepidation as anticipation...

 

Cheers (I guess! 😉),

Alan

 

[rickca]

6 hours ago, austinpop said:

27 MHz HDMI

Why upgrade the HDMI clock?  What do you use HDMI for?  Why not do the system clock along with USB/ethernet?

[Superdad]

@austinpop, What sort of connectors and cables do you now have running those 3 clock lines from your tx-USBUltra to your NUC?  And how long are they?

[auricgoldfinger]

2 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

 

Goddammit Rajiv!

 

I'm loving the simplicity of just 2 AL NUCs (server and endpoint), with a power supply each. And you have to go an open the whole clocking and TX-USBUltra rabbit hole again 🙄

 

Worst part is that I have both a TX-USBUltra and SoTM master clock on hand. But the PSUs for each are currently re-purposed for the NUCs. Prospect of adding 2 components, 2 more PSUs and the associated wires back onto the rack doesn't appeal too much either. May just go ahead and sell them as I was planning before you tossed this cat amongst the pigeons.

 

I was thinking wait for the EtherRegen and then decide between that or the SoTM switch and then job done. Pft!

 

I guess I'll await your further reports with as much trepidation as anticipation...

 

Cheers (I guess! 😉),

Alan

 

 

You should have some available clock points in your SOtM switch that could be used to re-clock your NUC.  You wouldn't need to add any components other than SMB cables.

[austinpop]

7 hours ago, mozes said:

So this confirms your previous finding with the DS-1 that clocking is very important even in the presence of AL/NUC. 

 

The golden trio to optimize, power, latency, and clocking.

 

It would seem so, at least in my experience. 

[austinpop]

4 hours ago, RickyV said:

Hi @austinpop would it be possible to make a picture of the nuc board so we can see where the xo’s are located? And if you know wich is wich xo. 

 

Would be very helpful.

Thanks 

 

No promises, but I’ll see what I can do. It will be a few days, though.

[austinpop]

2 hours ago, rickca said:

Why upgrade the HDMI clock?  What do you use HDMI for?  Why not do the system clock along with USB/ethernet?

 

Since we don’t really know why the clock mods have an S.Q. benefit - at least I certainly don’t - the premise was to improve ALL clocks on the mobo, since they all share a ground plane. To the extent a low phase noise clock lowers noise, why leave one noisy clock in play.

[davide256]

16 hours ago, tapatrick said:

.....

The optimum amount of memory (ram)?

I tried 4gb and 8gb on the endpoint - 4gb is enough for running roonbridge

16gb is needed for the server

......

 

Is the endpoint NUC more important than the server end?

Yes in my opinion but an NUC server adds an important improvement too

I have the NUC7PJYH as my server which is very reliable and has been running for a few months with out issue

...

A question;  Can you confirm that you are using 2 x 8gb in a 7PJYH server and how much RAM  that is using? I'd just like to be sure

that its actually usable to AL in the 7PJYH before buying another 8gb of RAM to experiment with.

 

I didn't bother with trialing the 7PJYH as a server because Intel's stated memory limit is 8gb and  I had assumed this was an addressable memory limit of the Pentium processor.

much prefer running LXQT/Roonserver in RAM on the server end.

 

FWIW the NUC 7CJYH still appears to be out of stock at retailers, believe this has been so since December

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

@austinpop, What sort of connectors and cables do you now have running those 3 clock lines from your tx-USBUltra to your NUC?  And how long are they?

 

They are SMB cables like before. I managed to place the tX directly on top of the NUC so I can use a 6” (15cm) length.

 

Internally, I already had the shorter 4” SMB input to U.FL cables that @elan120 reported on many months ago.

 

I still need to confirm what cables and what length were used in the NUC, from SMB input to mobo clock points. I had asked May to use as short as possible cables there, and she said they had.

[Johnseye]

7 hours ago, rickca said:

Why upgrade the HDMI clock?  What do you use HDMI for?  Why not do the system clock along with USB/ethernet?

 

5 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

Since we don’t really know why the clock mods have an S.Q. benefit - at least I certainly don’t - the premise was to improve ALL clocks on the mobo, since they all share a ground plane. To the extent a low phase noise clock lowers noise, why leave one noisy clock in play.

 

Lee at SOtM always recommends changing out every clock on the board. He believes every clock contributes noise.  To Rajiv's point regarding the ground plane.  IMO if you've got the taps, or the cash, why not.

 

@austinpop were you able to compare an unmodified i7DNBE directly against your modified i7DNBE?

Did they drill holes in your Plato X7D case for the smb connectors?

[tapatrick]

6 hours ago, davide256 said:

A question;  Can you confirm that you are using 2 x 8gb in a 7PJYH server and how much RAM  that is using? I'd just like to be sure

that its actually usable to AL in the 7PJYH before buying another 8gb of RAM to experiment with.

 

I didn't bother with trialing the 7PJYH as a server because Intel's stated memory limit is 8gb and  I had assumed this was an addressable memory limit of the Pentium processor.

much prefer running LXQT/Roonserver in RAM on the server end.

 

FWIW the NUC 7CJYH still appears to be out of stock at retailers, believe this has been so since December

Yes I'm using 2x 8gb, see below.. it might work on 8gb but its tight. I wanted to allow for growth of my roon database. The intel spec does say 8gb max but I found a report in a forum stating it is okay with 16gb so I went ahead.

[Johnseye]

I received some feedback from @romaz as he also sent his NUC into SOtM for a clock mod.  I believe he will write something up in the future.  I'm just going to quote him here so I don't mince words.  For those of us who have modded our PCs or use any of the SOtM ultra devices, we know the impact an sCLK-EX can have on a device.  It appears that is the same with the NUC.

 

"The improvement is HUGE.  The impact of the EVOX caps on the tX-USBultra is much bigger than anticipated.  Dynamics are much improved.  Transients have more bite and the detail articulation has taken a surprising leap.  The tX-USBultra is back in the chain for good and it will only get better once I am able to power it with a DR SR7.

 

The 4 clock replacements on the NUC (system, Ethernet, 2X HDMI) improve SQ in an expected and welcome fashion.  Noise floor is lower resulting in better perceived resolution, space, clarity, timbre along with a deeper and richer tonal bouquet.  Bass heft was already really good with the i7 NUC but bass definition is at a level I've not heard before.  What is surprising is how wide my sound stage has become. 

 

Before, the REF10 made a decent improvement with the tX-USBultra but now with the combo of NUC + tX-USBultra being clocked by the same sCLK-EX board, the improvement with the REF10 is just much more prominent.  Along with master clocking my sNH-10G, I'm really feeling like my REF10 has become a must have."

[auricgoldfinger]

32 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

I received some feedback from @romaz as he also sent his NUC into SOtM for a clock mod.  I believe he will write something up in the future.  I'm just going to quote him here so I don't mince words.  For those of us who have modded our PCs or use any of the SOtM ultra devices, we know the impact an sCLK-EX can have on a device.  It appears that is the same with the NUC.

 

"The improvement is HUGE.  The impact of the EVOX caps on the tX-USBultra is much bigger than anticipated.  Dynamics are much improved.  Transients have more bite and the detail articulation has taken a surprising leap.  The tX-USBultra is back in the chain for good and it will only get better once I am able to power it with a DR SR7.

 

The 4 clock replacements on the NUC (system, Ethernet, 2X HDMI) improve SQ in an expected and welcome fashion.  Noise floor is lower resulting in better perceived resolution, space, clarity, timbre along with a deeper and richer tonal bouquet.  Bass heft was already really good with the i7 NUC but bass definition is at a level I've not heard before.  What is surprising is how wide my sound stage has become. 

 

Before, the REF10 made a decent improvement with the tX-USBultra but now with the combo of NUC + tX-USBultra being clocked by the same sCLK-EX board, the improvement with the REF10 is just much more prominent.  Along with master clocking my sNH-10G, I'm really feeling like my REF10 has become a must have."

 

I would say @romaz didn't mince words, either.  He is positively gushing.  I concur with his comments regarding the tX-USBultra and Evox caps.  For extra fun, the internal DC cable on my tX is now 20 AWG solid core Neotech silver wire that has JSSG360 shielding.  The effect on the noise floor is jaw dropping.

[rickca]

Deleted.  

[rickca]

1 hour ago, Johnseye said:

The improvement is HUGE

I'm confused by a couple of things @romaz said.

 

He says 4 clock replacements on the NUC (system, Ethernet, 2X HDMI).  But @austinpop said he did 3 clock replacements ... USB, ethernet and HDMI.  I think Roy and Rajiv are using the same NUC.  Rajiv, why did you do HDMI instead of the system clock?

 

Why didn't Roy replace the USB clock?  How can he have done 4 clock points if the NUC + tX-USBultra are being clocked by the same sCLK-EX board?  If the board is in the tX-USBultra, it only has 3 available clock points for other devices.

[Johnseye]

8 minutes ago, rickca said:

I'm confused by a couple of things @romaz said.

 

He says 4 clock replacements on the NUC (system, Ethernet, 2X HDMI).  But @austinpop said he did 3 clock replacements ... USB, ethernet and HDMI.  I think Roy and Rajiv are using the same NUC.  Rajiv, why did you do HDMI instead of the system clock?

 

Why didn't Roy replace the USB clock?  How can he have done 4 clock points if the NUC + tX-USBultra are being clocked by the same sCLK-EX board?  If the board is in the tX-USBultra, it only has 3 available clock points for other devices.

 

There are 4 clocks but you can use the same sCLK-EX tap for the HDMI ports.  Here's Roy's words again.  This was the same situation with my motherboard.  I used a single tap for both ethernet adapters.

 

"With respect to my i7 NUC board, which is an SoC board, there are 4 replaceable clocks (system, Ethernet, HDMI x 2).  All the other clocks are subclocks (dPLL) that cannot be replaced.  The 2 HDMI ports each utilize a clock of the same frequency and so 1 tap from the sCLK-EX board can be used for both and so this allows the 3 free clocks on my tX-USBultra to clock all 4 clocks on the board."