Euphony OS w/Stylus player setup and issues thread

[davide256]

1 hour ago, bobfa said:

Dave,

 

So the two diagrams above show how these systems work.  Each one has to be operated from some sort of control point application.  That is why I was asking for that before.  If you are using the Roon controller then the bottom section is your music and control path.

If that’s the case, disabling LMS while playing an album should have no effect on playback. I’ll give that a try when I return home

[Lukasluis]

I am confused too. Why should Roon needs LMS, but everytime I adjust the volume control in LMS, the music gets affected.

[aangen]

He did say “color me dense”......

[bobfa]

19 minutes ago, Lukasluis said:

I am confused too. Why should Roon needs LMS, but everytime I adjust the volume control in LMS, the music gets affected.

 

I think I had noted this earlier but here it is from the Roon KB

 

https://kb.roonlabs.com/Squeezebox_Setup

 

"Step 1: The first thing you should do is turn off any Logitech Media Server (LMS) instances running on your network. Roon's Squeezebox functionality works by emulating LMS--if LMS is running on your network, devices may find and associate with it, or become confused."

 

 

I know from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that having LMS and Roon Squeezelite running on the same network breaks things BADLY!

 

[HeeBroG]

Hi All,

 

Some advice please on setup.

 

I am using a NUC7PJYH as a standalone player with Stylus.

I am currently booting from USB.

I don't have a SSD in my NUC having read some negative comments about noise.

With the Ramroot option now available, I am considering inserting the SSD so I can eject the USB boot drive and use the "cache" function.

As I understand it, as I am using Stylus I can't currently eject the USB drive without losing accessing to my library which is currently connected to the NUC via USB HDD.

Is anybody using a similar configuration?

[austinpop]

4 hours ago, HeeBroG said:

Hi All,

 

Some advice please on setup.

 

I am using a NUC7PJYH as a standalone player with Stylus.

I am currently booting from USB.

I don't have a SSD in my NUC having read some negative comments about noise.

With the Ramroot option now available, I am considering inserting the SSD so I can eject the USB boot drive and use the "cache" function.

As I understand it, as I am using Stylus I can't currently eject the USB drive without losing accessing to my library which is currently connected to the NUC via USB HDD.

Is anybody using a similar configuration?

 

Hi Geoff,

 

Are you booting from a USB stick, and then your music files are on a separate USB HDD? Just wanted to understand your configuration. There are some considerations with running a music server like Stylus or Roon Core while booted off a USB stick if you want to use ramroot. Željko did a nice writeup here: https://euphony-audio.com/hesk/knowledgebase.php?article=14

 

Second question: how big (total disk footprint in GB) is your library?

[Cebolla]

23 hours ago, davide256 said:

Roon core is controlling squeezelite play from the NAS. LMS on NAS in my system makes streaming Squeezelite to Stylus endpoint sound better

There are lots of thing in audio we don't need to do but choose to do when it sounds better. So simple to try

if you have an LMS supporting NAS

 

@Cebolla you may have some thoughts on this discussion.

 

The Roon Core server is supposed to be a complete substitute for the Logitech Media Server when both controlling Squeezebox type streamers and providing them with the audio, as @the_bat's excellent diagram indicates.

 

Just to be clear, LMS is the controller as well as the provider of the audio for Squeezebox type streamers.

 

 

[davide256]

3 hours ago, Cebolla said:

 

The Roon Core server is supposed to be a complete substitute for the Logitech Media Server when both controlling Squeezebox type streamers and providing them with the audio, as @the_bat's excellent diagram indicates.

 

Just to be clear, LMS is the controller as well as the provider of the audio for Squeezebox type streamers.

 

 

Thanks Cebolla, Stopping LMS server caused no disruption of Roon to Stylus EP playback so I am 100% on board now with everyone else's understanding that LMS

is not needed or useful.

[HeeBroG]

10 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

Hi Geoff,

 

Are you booting from a USB stick, and then your music files are on a separate USB HDD? Just wanted to understand your configuration. There are some considerations with running a music server like Stylus or Roon Core while booted off a USB stick if you want to use ramroot. Željko did a nice writeup here: https://euphony-audio.com/hesk/knowledgebase.php?article=14

 

Second question: how big (total disk footprint in GB) is your library?

HI Rajiv.

 

I have read that article. I have only initiated the "default" Ramroot option as I still need functionality and access to my library.

If I make any changes eg. cover art, I go back to manually save "root fs to disk". At least that's my understanding. A bit like AL; needing to remember to save changes if using RAM mode.

 

My library is about 1TB.

 

I have a 90GB SSD that I bough for my NUC but never ended up installing it however I don't believe I can use the "cache" function booting from USB.

I understand the sound might improve further if I used a separately powered USB drive but with the option of "cache" and "buffer before play" I wanted to avoid complicating things.

 

I was using a Mac mini server/NUC endpoint configuration with AL but Euphony/Stylus is better in my system.

 

It also frees up a 12V PS that I could use for my SOtM tX-USBultra.

 

Thanks for you thoughts.

 

G

[austinpop]

6 minutes ago, HeeBroG said:

HI Rajiv.

 

I have read that article. I have only initiated the "default" Ramroot option as I still need functionality and access to my library.

If I make any changes eg. cover art, I go back to manually save "root fs to disk". At least that's my understanding. A bit like AL; needing to remember to save changes if using RAM mode.

 

My library is about 1TB.

 

I have a 90GB SSD that I bough for my NUC but never ended up installing it however I don't believe I can use the "cache" function booting from USB.

I understand the sound might improve further if I used a separately powered USB drive but with the option of "cache" and "buffer before play" I wanted to avoid complicating things.

 

I was using a Mac mini server/NUC endpoint configuration with AL but Euphony/Stylus is better in my system.

 

It also frees up a 12V PS that I could use for my SOtM tX-USBultra.

 

Thanks for you thoughts.

 

G

 

Hi Geoff, 

 

Unless your SSD is an Intel Optane SSD, I would not recommend putting it in the NUC, as NVMe SSDs have been reported to sound harsh. I know there are configs people swear by, using USB HDD storage with separate PSUs, so it's possible there are good solutions there, but I have not pursued these. 

 

I am a big fan of running the music server diskless (or with only an Optane SSD boot disk), keeping music storage off the server, upstream in the network. This is particularly true if the NUC is preceded by an EtherRegen, or reclocked switch and a good PSU. It can be on a NAS, which I use, but another option is to simply attach your 1TB USB music drive to your MacMini and share it on the network. Then on your NUC:

• continue to boot off your USB stick
• Add your music drive (now a network share from your Mini) as a "network drive" on the Euphony Library tab
• Rescan your library and you should be back in business
• If you want to use Ramroot, check the following boxes:
  • Enable Ramroot
  • Copy App Config to RAM.

The only thing you will lose is the cached artwork in Stylus. I'm not sure how big this folder (/data/.cover_art_cache) is, so I suspect Željko can be persuaded to copy this over, as long as it is below a certain size threshold.

[aangen]

57 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Unless your SSD is an Intel Optane SSD, I would not recommend putting it in the NUC, as NVMe SSDs have been reported to sound harsh.

I don't know about NVMe SSDs but I can tell you for sure that Samsung SATA SSDs sound wonderful. So much so I have never been interested in even trying Optane. I have a 4TB Samsung on my Euphony PTS server and harsh is not a word anyone would use to describe it's sound.

To me it feels like one guy said use Optane and a religion formed around it. Haven't heard it, so shame on me, but still.....

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

 

Hi Geoff, 

 

Unless your SSD is an Intel Optane SSD, I would not recommend putting it in the NUC, as NVMe SSDs have been reported to sound harsh. I know there are configs people swear by, using USB HDD storage with separate PSUs, so it's possible there are good solutions there, but I have not pursued these. 

 

I am a big fan of running the music server diskless (or with only an Optane SSD boot disk), keeping music storage off the server, upstream in the network. This is particularly true if the NUC is preceded by an EtherRegen, or reclocked switch and a good PSU. It can be on a NAS, which I use, but another option is to simply attach your 1TB USB music drive to your MacMini and share it on the network. Then on your NUC:

• continue to boot off your USB stick
• Add your music drive (now a network share from your Mini) as a "network drive" on the Euphony Library tab
• Rescan your library and you should be back in business
• If you want to use Ramroot, check the following boxes:
  • Enable Ramroot
  • Copy App Config to RAM.

The only thing you will lose is the cached artwork in Stylus. I'm not sure how big this folder (/data/.cover_art_cache) is, so I suspect Željko can be persuaded to copy this over, as long as it is below a certain size threshold.

 

@HeeBroG

 

One other thought. You can still attach your USB HDD to the NUC, even when running in ramroot, with "Copy App Config to RAM". This flag just allows you to eject your USB flash drive, but your USB HDD should stay mounted.

 

So if you want to try the network share route, you can very easily compare the current USB HDD direct attach to the network drive configuration. Regardless of what anyone says, you can decide for yourself which you prefer.

[Nenon]

2 hours ago, aangen said:

I don't know about NVMe SSDs but I can tell you for sure that Samsung SATA SSDs sound wonderful. So much so I have never been interested in even trying Optane. I have a 4TB Samsung on my Euphony PTS server and harsh is not a word anyone would use to describe it's sound.

I got rid of my Samsung SATA SSD, because I did not like it. It was powered by a dedicated Sean Jacobs power supply and was still generating a lot of noise. That type of noise is typically not audible until it's gone... then you realize it has been there all the time. And once you hear how your system sounds, you never want to plug a SSD drive in your system ever again. 

 

2 hours ago, aangen said:

To me it feels like one guy said use Optane and a religion formed around it. Haven't heard it, so shame on me, but still.....

My tests were prior to ramroot... Just booting from Optane was immediately a noticeable improvement over booting from USB. And booting from SSD was significantly worse than USB. I had at least three friends who did that and reported the same results. None of them are here on the forum, btw. If it's religion, it must be the right one . 

[aangen]

You gotta believe in something I guess.

[HeeBroG]

7 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

@HeeBroG

 

One other thought. You can still attach your USB HDD to the NUC, even when running in ramroot, with "Copy App Config to RAM". This flag just allows you to eject your USB flash drive, but your USB HDD should stay mounted.

 

So if you want to try the network share route, you can very easily compare the current USB HDD direct attach to the network drive configuration. Regardless of what anyone says, you can decide for yourself which you prefer.

Thanks Rajiv.

 

This actually worked well; so far.

Ejecting the USB boot drive has improved things further in my particular configuration.

The USB HDD is still mounted with full library access and Stylus functionality.

I suppose I have to reinsert the USB boot drive if I make any changes to the library and click "Save app config to disk" to keep any changes including library edits.

 

G

[bobfa]

11 hours ago, aangen said:

I don't know about NVMe SSDs but I can tell you for sure that Samsung SATA SSDs sound wonderful. So much so I have never been interested in even trying Optane. I have a 4TB Samsung on my Euphony PTS server and harsh is not a word anyone would use to describe it's sound.

To me it feels like one guy said use Optane and a religion formed around it. Haven't heard it, so shame on me, but still.....

I disagree with your last statement and the implications in it.  Once you have the hardware in hand it is trivial to reproduce the tests.  Please DO NOT go down the path that it implies.  If you want to learn if this stuff works then you have to try it or listen to it on another system.  I am sorry to be harsh here but I am very tired of people making assumptions or declarations about what I and others who have listened to my systems hear.  

 

I have done extensive A/B comparisons using USB/Optane/NVME/SATA SSD.  Using both AudioLiniux and Euphony in both Server and Endpoint roles.  For ME there are a few results.

 

NOTE my system was different during 1,2,3:  DAC, amp, speakers!

1. I could never hear a difference between USB and RamRoot on AudioLinux.

2. When I put either an NVME or SATA SSD in either my server or endpoint it sounded worse. 

3. When I went from USB to Optane I could not hear a difference.  The $60 price of an Optane stick is worth the hassle reduction.

 

NOTE #4  been true for all of my testing in 2019.  I continue to add it to the test matrix.

4. In my current systems testing I was not able to hear the difference between an external USB HD on an LPS and having the music files on my NAS.

...................

The change from AudioLinix (1.x days) to Euphony 3.x has been revolutionary, both in sound quality and in simplicity.  But, this summer when Euphony changed to the new way of loading the system into RAM I was able to go down to a one box solution.  I was running my Xeon server with Roon and StylusEP in a single box.  In addition the APACER industrial RAM made a noticeable improvement for me.

................... 

My story has evolved rather quickly over the last three months.  I have not had a lot of time to report on it yet.  It will not be on the Euphony thread!  Today I am operating something completely different that is even better sounding.  

 

It started here:

 

 

As for where the story ends; I am not sure even I know. What I can tell you is that playback software matters a lot more than even I thought it could.

 

Bob

 

 

 

 

 

 

[aangen]

I do a little testing myself Bob. What I have been doing lately is to make 24.96 recordings of an LP and then play the recording on my Euphony server and compare the sound of the recording to the sound of the actual LP. My thinking is there are fewer variables between the two and when testing you should try to avoid variables, i.e. "my system was different during 1,2,3:  DAC, amp, speakers!". My system stays the same for these tests. I am very pleased with how close my digital sound is to my analog sound. It is very close. So close that I have gone many weeks now without buying or trying another component. This year alone I added very significant components at great expense to my system. Feeling calm about it right now is a luxury I hope you might appreciate.

 

There was intended tongue in cheek in my statement about the Optane religion. I get it, really I do. My system has many very expensive components that most people would think absurd. (cables etc..) My only point was to say that in my direct experience, I don't notice the noise some speak of with a SATA SSD. 

[flkin]

One advantage of using internal SSDs is that it can be separately powered. Rather than onboard Nvme Optane which takes power from the motherboard shared with other components. 

[Blake]

On 12/15/2019 at 10:20 AM, bobfa said:

 

My story has evolved rather quickly over the last three months.  I have not had a lot of time to report on it yet.  It will not be on the Euphony thread!  Today I am operating something completely different that is even better sounding.  

 

 

Bob, I have been reading your threads with great interest.  I look forward to your future findings/posts and appreciate the time and effort you make in sharing your findings with the forum.  

 

That the Signature USBridge + Shanti + MoOde can compete with or better your Sonore + Euphony combo is rather mind-blowing, especially considering the price differential!

 

 

[mikicasellas]

Has anyone has an issue with Euphony lately.... ?

 

Mine stopped playing while playing via Roon (StylusEp), i rebooted and found that is asking for "Euphony Login" & "Password" but i have neither, it was automatically every time

 

[davide256]

On 12/16/2019 at 8:57 PM, mikicasellas said:

Has anyone has an issue with Euphony lately.... ?

 

Mine stopped playing while playing via Roon (StylusEp), i rebooted and found that is asking for "Euphony Login" & "Password" but i have neither, it was automatically every time

 

That’s the boot screen... you should be using a web browser to connect to “Euphony”. If that’s not working install “Advanced IP Scanner” and scan your network for the Euphony servers IP Address, use that instead in your browser address bar. Also reseat your USB cable, you won’t see Stylus EP in Roon if it doesn’t have a working connected audio device

[ASRMichael]

Hi all, I've been tinkering...as you do...…..

 

I was running Euphony Server and Euphony NUC end point to my DAC, then I thought I would try this...and really like it...

 

----- My endpoint (TLS) is now running Roon Core, sending data to my server

----- My server is running Stylus & HQ player option. My server is now connected to my DAC

 

Why?

----Now I feel I have the best of both worlds, because I can use Roon app and Stylus app on my phone at same time, why would I want this? Discovering new music on Roon (Tidal) is great, and easy access to add to favourites, also good for A/B testing. 

----Other main reason it frees up some performance on my server, which now means I can run HQ player at higher settings. 

 

In my case I think it sounds better overall, but 100% confident it will be system dependant, please note you will need full Euphony license on each machine to test this. 

 

If you like tinkering give it a go...

 

Merry Xmas to all by the way. 

[mdzaki]

I have an issue recently with my euphony....i am using stylus as a player and every time i try to play an album from tidal or quboz there is a delay untill the album start to play

 

any ideas ?

 

Zaki

[Poldi]

I am using Euphony on a NUC7i7DNHE as a single box setup. However I am having problems when using a Cisco 2960c switch between the router and the NUC. All of them connected via ethernet cables and with fixed IP address.

 

Euphony is really laggy and all kinds of warnings show up (especially when using Qobuz) and sometimes playback from Qobuz is not possible at all. The guys at Euphony told me that all these warnings and errors are related to the internet connection being too slow. So then I tried without the Cisco switch and now everything works.

 

But as the switch is bringing some sonic improvements I would like to continue using it. Does anyone have a clue how to fix this?

 

Happy new year!

Poldi

[Holzohr]

On 11/26/2019 at 11:55 PM, Holzohr said:

 

That's interesting! I am just playing with JPLAY Femto on my Windows machine. Stylus plus JPLAY Femto as renderer that could be a winning team.

 

Quoting myself. I could test it and it works indeed but in my setup it doesn't make that much sense. I regret (in this case) a bit that I have sold my iFi Pro iDSD. 

Also, I like more the handling with Stylus on the Server NUC and StylusEP on the Endpoint NUC but always switched back to Roon (on the same Server NUC) for convenience (and for using Roon with JPLAY on my Windows machine).

 

Today I activated the StylusEP on the Endpoint NUC again and the first time that I took notice of this:

Quote

Finally StylusEP can present itself as HQPlayer endpoint to Roon. Add StylusEP hostname or IP address as the address of HQPlayer in Roon.
StylusEP will not upsample anything but it will play songs of any samplerate and even DSD formats thus avoiding limitations put on Squeezelite protocol in Roon.

 

Voilà! Now I have the StylusEP running in HQPlayer "dress". Even DSD256 playback is possible so indeed no more limitations à la SlimProto. I am still not sure if it brings any benefit soundwise compared to an activated Roon Bridge on the same Endpoint NUC or compared to StylusEP via SlimProto but I think it is a very nice way to use Roon with the Stylus player.