MQA The Truth lies Somewhere in the Middle

[Jud]

8 minutes ago, crenca said:

The numbers you quote I think include past subscribers such as my self who singed up for "hi res" or non mp3 - in other words 16/44.  The confidence game "switch" to MQA is not what brought me in.  What are the real numbers of consumers who signed up for Tidals Hi Fi tier because of MQA - in other words they actually bought into MQA?

 

I would be happy to see real numbers (and pleased if those numbers were lower).  But hey, aren't you supposed to be opposed to the reasonable consideration of real information?  Maybe if you just hollered a lot that there weren't any actual MQA subscribers, that would convince people?

[Rt66indierock]

45 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

 

Hi Dan, Mike -

 

Actually, I think Brink was indeed "bringing a knife to a gunfight," and that the MQA folks could really care less, for this reason: What these people care about is the dollar, not the holler.

 

People get outraged about closed systems and DRM all the time.  How badly has that worked out for Apple and Microsoft?  How badly for DVD and Blu-Ray?  What is absolutely critical to dollar value of a business proposition like MQA is consumers-at-large feeling that it is an improvement. 

 

First, we are not consumers-at-large; I doubt our little niche means anything at all to Tidal, whose experience with MQA I'm sure the rest of the industry is watching closely.  So far, results are mixed; while Tidal as a whole doesn't seem to be getting on like a house afire, it appears they've managed to sign up about 30,000 or so USA members to the MQA tier, of a total USA base of around 380,000.  This is seen as a somewhat hopeful sign by the industry, which dearly wants more people to be paying $20-$30 a month instead of $10.

 

So that's what the MQA folks are looking at.  Some fellow hollering on an Internet forum, or even a bunch of folks, they could care less about.  Such people can be easily dismissed.

 

What I would imagine the MQA folks are deathly afraid of is the sort of thing they reacted so strongly to from Chris at RMAF.  That was no accident.  Anyone who can show in a couple of charts information from credible sources (remember the attempted takedown of Archimago's credibility) that tells people they're paying extra for something that's not worth it is very, very scary to folks whose money is riding on convincing hundreds of thousands of the opposite.  So people like @mansr, @Miska, and @Archimago are the folks who actually have the heavy weaponry in this fight.  Getting that good, credible information to more people will do more to combat the problem posed by MQA than any screaming or "uncivil" behavior here in our little corner of the Internet.

 

Jud, one of the problems is the Tidal Hi-Fi tier in the US is about 80,000. CD quality and MQA is then about a tenth of percent of a market of paid subscribers in the US of 80 million. Various sources for the 80 million. 80,000 is from a Tidal royalty statement I got my hands on earlier this year.  I think people are worried consumers don't want even CD quality. Spotify has been test marketing for a while and people aren't willing to pay for it.

[crenca]

Just now, Rt66indierock said:

 

Jud, one of the problems is the Tidal Hi-Fi tier in the US is about 80,000. CD quality and MQA is then about a tenth of percent of a market of paid subscribers in the US of 80 million. Various sources for the 80 million. 80,000 is from a Tidal royalty statement I got my hands on earlier this year.  I think people are worried consumers don't want even CD quality. Spotify has been test marketing for a while and people aren't willing to pay for it.

 

No, the vast majority of musical consumers don't want even 16/44 because mp3 is good enough for them and their playback chains.

 

"The Industry" tried to get Audiophiles on board the MQA train (by lying about its sonic, consumer, and industry benefits) so that we could then be used as examples to the general musical consumer "you see, you want this", as well as just being a sort of critical stating mass...

[Jud]

3 minutes ago, Rt66indierock said:

 

Jud, one of the problems is the Tidal Hi-Fi tier in the US is about 80,000. CD quality and MQA is then about a tenth of percent of a market of paid subscribers in the US of 80 million. Various sources for the 80 million. 80,000 is from a Tidal royalty statement I got my hands on earlier this year.  I think people are worried consumers don't want even CD quality. Spotify has been test marketing for a while and people aren't willing to pay for it.

 

Thanks for the information.  I'm concerned, along with you, that the industry might give up on at least RedBook-resolution streaming.  (I love Qobuz's RedBook-hi res tier, and hope like heck they're successful.)

 

Wonder what the difference between the 80,000 and 30,000 figures is?  (I read the latter in a June article about Tidal's finances.)

[daverich4]

58 minutes ago, Sal1950 said:

Not being a Tidal sub I have to ask, is that a MQA tier, a HD tier, or the combined RB or better tier?

 

MQA and RB are available in a single tier for $20 a month. MQA is how they deliver their version of HD. 

[Sal1950]

46 minutes ago, Rt66indierock said:

I think people are worried consumers don't want even CD quality. Spotify has been test marketing for a while and people aren't willing to pay for it.

I don't necessarily disagree but do wonder where you got that info on people not being willing to pay?  Spotify ran a extremely short test that almost no one got a chance to sign up for.  There is a ongoing 214 page thread at Spotify forums begging for a lossless stream which yet to be instated. Too bad really since IMO Spotify has the best UI that I've seen so far. Ongoing BTW since 2014 

https://community.spotify.com/t5/Live-Ideas/Music-HiFi-Quality-Lossless-Streaming-16bit-44-1khz/idi-p/700006#comments

[firedog]

1 hour ago, Sal1950 said:

Not being a Tidal sub I have to ask, is that a MQA tier, a HD tier, or the combined RB or better tier?

It's the CD quality "hi-fi" tier, that they added MQA to for no extra charge. Since the intro of MQA it has both CD quality and MQA  tracks. Tidal doesn't have a "hi-res" tier, per se. 

Jud says there are 30000 subscribers in the US. It still remains to be determined how many are only there b/c of MQA. And how many of those were there before MQA was added? 
 I'd guess CD quality streaming with millions of tracks is more important to most subscribers to "hi-fi" than MQA is. 

 

My view is this: if Tidal only managed to sign up 30K subscribers to their hi end tier, and only some of those are there b/c of MQA, then that it is a sign of serious lack of interest in either CD or hi-res streaming tiers.  If there was real market interest, Tidal would have managed to steal lots of users from the 320k mp3 tier at Spotify. 

[Rt66indierock]

1 minute ago, Sal1950 said:

I don't necessarily disagree but do wonder where you got that info on people not being willing to pay?  Spotify ran a extremely short test that almost no one got a chance to sign up for.  There is a ongoing 214 page thread at Spotify forums begging for a lossless stream which yet to be instated. Too bad really since IMO Spotify has the best UI that I've seen so far. Ongoing BTW since 2014 

https://community.spotify.com/t5/Live-Ideas/Music-HiFi-Quality-Lossless-Streaming-16bit-44-1khz/idi-p/700006#comments

 

Spotify did and may still be doing test marketing on CD quality streaming. There was a lot of resistance to even $15 a month. 

 

214 pages at what 10 users a page is not impressive.

[Sal1950]

8 minutes ago, firedog said:

Jud says there are 30000 subscribers in the US. It still remains to be determined how many are only there b/c of MQA. And how many of those were there before MQA was added? 
 I'd guess CD quality streaming with millions of tracks is more important to most subscribers to "hi-fi" than MQA is. 

Thanks, that's what I thought.

There's no way to ever determine the percentage that signed up b/c of MQA. Even if  Tidal revealed the before and after MQA numbers you still don't know if it's MQA or just natural growth with time?  I could be wrong but I very much doubt the "for MQA"

are at all significant and then how many of them was strictly out of curiosity.

 

[Sal1950]

10 minutes ago, Rt66indierock said:

 

Spotify did and may still be doing test marketing on CD quality streaming. There was a lot of resistance to even $15 a month. 

 

214 pages at what 10 users a page is not impressive.

Like I said, I didn't disagree.  Just thought you may have read somewhere a statement from Spotify that response was poor.  I've followed fairly closely since I'd very much like them to introduce a lossless tier.

The lossless tier test was so short and secretive to almost be a myth. As I understand it a  test group of individuals were selected and invited to test it.

And then it was gone. ???

Honestly all it's amounted to is a bunch of test marketing interest talk.

[The Computer Audiophile]

15 minutes ago, Sal1950 said:

Thanks, that's what I thought.

There's no way to ever determine the percentage that signed up b/c of MQA. Even if  Tidal revealed the before and after MQA numbers you still don't know if it's MQA or just natural growth with time?  I could be wrong but I very much doubt the "for MQA"

are at all significant and then how many of them was strictly out of curiosity.

 

I'm willing to bet the number of people who signed up because of MQA is in the low triple digits.

 

It really doesn't matter. If the copyright holders say it's MQA or the highway, then it's MQA or the highway.

 

Consumer demand or not, do you think we are getting 8K video content in the next few years? I think it's inevitable even though nobody wants it. The content producers and component manufacturers will deliver it and we'll be stuck with it. Change for commerce sake is such low hanging fruit that those looking to make quarterly numbers for shareholders just can't resist. 

 

 

 

 

[Sal1950]

This ongoing "infighting" does none of us interested in opposing the MQA juggernaut any good. Can we please call a truce?

 

[esldude]

7 minutes ago, Sal1950 said:

This ongoing "infighting" does none of us interested in opposing the MQA juggernaut any good. Can we please call a truce?

 

Either that or Chris needs a new Steel Cage sub-forum.  

[KeenObserver]

MQA: The Truth Is Out There, And We Want To Expose It, But We're Too Busy Being Miss Manners.

 

I think I'll go back up to the mountain and listen to music for a while.

 

This thread reminds me of people that listen to equipment and never really listen to music.

[Sal1950]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Consumer demand or not, do you think we are getting 8K video content in the next few years? I think it's inevitable even though nobody wants it. The content producers and component manufacturers will deliver it and we'll be stuck with it. Change for commerce sake is such low hanging fruit that those looking to make quarterly numbers for shareholders just can't resist. 

Oh yea, we'll get 8k at some point but that may be slow coming.

The fact that no one needs it is irrelevant, it may sell TV's and 8k players.

But the bandwidth involved may slow it's intro, both on disc and streaming.

We'll see

[gdpr]

@Shadders

sorry for the spelling errors, but English is not my native language and an IPad is not the best platform to avoid spelling errors.

Should I repeat my input in Dutch, so you can check what I mean to say, using Google Translate

Dirk

[Shadders]

1 minute ago, ddetaey said:

@Shadders

sorry for the spelling errors, but English is not my native language and an IPad is not the best platform to avoid spelling errors.

Should I repeat my input in Dutch, so you can check what I mean to say, using Google Translate

Dirk

Hi,

No - not having a go at you, i was just taking the mickey as a general thing out of the thread. Do not apologise.

 

I do not mind spelling errors at all. Although i will say, color is spelt colour, and favorite is spelt favourite - and the CA site spell checker confirms this too.

 

Regads,

Shadders.

[The Computer Audiophile]

20 minutes ago, Sal1950 said:

Oh yea, we'll get 8k at some point but that may be slow coming.

The fact that no one needs it is irrelevant, it may sell TV's and 8k players.

But the bandwidth involved may slow it's intro, both on disc and streaming.

We'll see

Is that an argument for MQVideo ?

[shadowlight]

On 11/14/2018 at 8:17 PM, Lee Scoggins said:

 

Several reviewers have Qobuz subscriptions.  It sounds very good.

 

Let's see if I can try to get the thread back on track.

 

Have you tried Qobuz and what is your opinion compared to same track/master with Qobuz and MQA?

 

I have a trial subscription to Qobuz and used to have Tidal but got tired of the constant bombardment of music that I was not interested in from Tidal promotion, so no chance of comparing the two.

[Samuel T Cogley]

49 minutes ago, tmtomh said:

Jesus, what on earth happened to this thread? ?

 

While we haven't conversed, I know your posts well from the years I spent over at Hoffman and I respect your view here.

 

It wasn't my intention to derail the thread.  My blood just boiled when I saw victory lap after victory lap because someone was banned and I just let my emotions get the best of me.

 

You're absolutely right, and I'm sincerely hoping the thread gets back on topic.

 

Peace, out!

[sandyk]

Quote

Then maybe the rest of us can get back to havin a discussion. 

 

 Is there really anything meaningful left to say that hasn't already been said in this 87 page thread ?

 As the thread title says,  MQA The Truth lies Somewhere in the Middle .

Perhaps most Audiophiles are likely to find that MQA sounds better than 16/44.1 but not quite as good as the original high resolution file ?

[Hugo9000]

I'll admit I haven't watched the video of the presentation in a while, but I don't believe the "somewhere in the middle" referred at all to the quality of the sound, and where it stood with regard to MP3, Redbook CD, or high resolution masters/other formats.  Rather, it was about the truth regarding marketing claims and the "demos" and business model and so on, wasn't it?

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

We have a new thread for off topic posts to go call the Off Topic Graveyard. Some have been moved from this thread, other may still be moved, and others from other threads may be moved. 

 

If you feel bad that a post has been moved send me a PM. 

 

 

[Sal1950]

4 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Is that an argument for MQVideo ?

Only if I can get a kool Authenticated light that tells me the deblurschitt magic dust is being applied.

[esldude]

7 minutes ago, Sal1950 said:

Only if I can get a kool Authenticated light that tells me the deblurschitt magic dust is being applied.

For video it probably needs to be either a multi-colored rainbow or continually slow cycling between all the basic colors.