PSA: Be Careful Dealing With Uptone Audio

[Account Closed]

21 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Ah. I forgot that. 
 

I believe the OP is capable of using a screw driver if one is provided. He could probably replace the screws to resolve his cosmetic issues. The internal issue could be resolved by just using the component per the manufacturer’s intended use, i.e. placing it in one spot and using it rather than shaking it. 

I put all of my new, sensitive and expensive equipment on a paint mixer before using it just to make sure they got everything right and tight during assembly; doesn't everyone? 

 

 

[lmitche]

Really, all this fuss over screws?

 

This one is close to a new low. Can we delete this thread please? It serves no one.

[Jud]

1 hour ago, mansr said:

Screws are cheap. There is really no excuse for sending a device, whether new or used/refurbished, with so badly damaged screws to a customer. Of course, there's been no evidence presented that this actually happened, and even if it did, this is quite the over-reaction.

Your points are correct. I was adding the fact that they are small enough that the loss of a small amount of paint or anodizing might not be apparent except under magnification.

[Superdad]

18 minutes ago, Jud said:

Your points are correct. I was adding the fact that they are small enough that the loss of a small amount of paint or anodizing might not be apparent except under magnification.

 

If people only knew how many brands of Torx bits I have bought to find ones that fit perfectly the particular self-tapping screws that are supplied by our case manufacturer. And the brand we have settled on wears out a bit (pardon the pun) faster, so I buy them in bulk.

 

Anyone who has ever taken out the screws from one of our cases knows just how tight they are—and I don’t mean final tightness, I mean just that it is a metal-thread, not a machine thread, so no turning with just fingers. 

The screws he pictured are not stripped in the least. Just the points of the Torx bit took away some of the black-oxide in their sockets. A black Sharpie marker hides that quite well.

The $$ in our products are on the circuit boards, not on fancy casework. And yes, I offered to mail him a bag of new screws.

 

Okay, I’m done wasting my time with this. We have already lost about $600 with this fellow, not to mention the half dozen hours spent replying to his e-mails and dealing with this silly smear campaign over six forums. 

[Jud]

12 minutes ago, Superdad said:

A black Sharpie marker hides that quite well.

And can re-route major storms!

[Priaptor]

I haven't posted in some time and occasionally drop by to see what absurd threads are getting some attention (and I am rarely disappointed) but this one is up there.  

 

As an end-user of Uptone, I have to say Alex and crew have been one of the best I have ever dealt with.  If there products aren't to your liking, so be it, but from my perch, they give some of the best bang for the buck and I haven't been disappointed with any of their products and I definitely haven't been disappointed with their service. In a hobby where so many disappoint with service Uptone is definitely NOT one of them.

 

From my perch, the complaints seem absurd and John's response, while overly detailed, demonstrates his passion for his products as well as his good name. Just my two cents. 

[charlesphoto]

A few months back my LPS-1 bit the dust due to a tree downed on an electrical line down the street. First piece of electronics this has ever happened to, but you know, it does happen. It still had a month of warranty on it, and Alex said it could 'maybe' be repaired, but he also offered me a 1.2 for $275 including shipping and charger. I took him up on it and the sound of my oM it's charging is better than the LP-1 so count me as happy. 

 

In the case of the original poster, I can't think of many companies that when presented with a used piece of their equipment for repair (esp one that looks possibly abused) don't just say 'sorry' you took the chance buying used, you lose, pay for the repair or a new unit. 

 

IME, it's sometimes the clients who want/expect the most for the least that can turn into the biggest PITA's. 

[Jud]

3 minutes ago, charlesphoto said:

I can't think of many companies that when presented with a used piece of their equipment for repair (esp one that looks possibly abused) don't just say 'sorry' you took the chance buying used, you lose, pay for the repair or a new unit. 

Yep - Alex knew that’s what he was taking on when he made the warranty transferable, but that’s the way he prefers to do business.

[Mercman]

I have had numerous transactions with Alex and found him to be an honest guy and a pleasure to do business with.

 

 

[plissken]

23 minutes ago, Jud said:

Yep - Alex knew that’s what he was taking on when he made the warranty transferable, but that’s the way he prefers to do business.

 

Car companies do it all the time. Again if I was Alex and saw that the wrong voltage was applied, and I wanted to be nice about it, I would have sent another unit, letting them know that the failure was due to something other than manufacturer defect, and let them know that there was no warranty and the repair was gratis.

 

 

[Jud]

17 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

Car companies do it all the time. Again if I was Alex and saw that the wrong voltage was applied, and I wanted to be nice about it, I would have sent another unit, letting them know that the failure was due to something other than manufacturer defect, and let them know that there was no warranty and the repair was gratis.

 

 

I’ve dealt with both Alex and car companies, and given the choice, I wouldn’t pick the car companies.  😀

[charlesphoto]

13 minutes ago, Jud said:

Yep - Alex knew that’s what he was taking on when he made the warranty transferable, but that’s the way he prefers to do business.

 

Oppo repaired my used BDP-83 twice for cost of shipping. Simple drawer repair but nonetheless, and it was a modded to play international model at that. Nikon, on the other hand, won't even repair a used item if it wasn't originally bought in the country. When Leica lenses needed coding for their new digital M bodies, the turnaround time was over eight weeks. I sent in my 28mm, and eight weeks later I got it back - coded as a 24mm! Another four weeks they set it right (still charged of course).

 

Life and service don't come to you on a silver platter - millennial! ;). Which totally reminds me of a customer I need to make right due to a whole bunch of shipping errors, all on my part  in a dis-organized spot in my life. It happens. In the end I'll make little to no money on the transaction but it still needs to be made right and the buyer has been extremely understanding and patient (only talking a couple hundred bucks, but still). 

 

The "PSA:" think twice, three or many more times before airing your dirty laundry on social media. Or at least approach it with some measure of moderation and insight to begin with - keep in mind in this day and age of social media, people's livelihoods, let alone world events, can hinge on a tweet or forum post. And company to customer need to be careful as well. Even if you're in the right, potential future clients may just want to avoid any drama altogether. This applies more to personal service (I'm thinking of photographers, designers, chefs, contractors, etc etc) than selling electronics that are great value, cutting edge and fit new and unthought of niches such as Uptone does, but something to think about nonetheless. 

 

 

[plissken]

Just now, Jud said:

I’ve dealt with both Alex and car companies, and given the choice, I wouldn’t pick the car companies.  😀

 

Steve Lehto, specializing in lemon law in Michigan, has a YT channel I frequent weekly. Good stuff.

[soares]

1 hour ago, Priaptor said:

I haven't posted in some time and occasionally drop by to see what absurd threads are getting some attention (and I am rarely disappointed) but this one is up there.  

 

As an end-user of Uptone, I have to say Alex and crew have been one of the best I have ever dealt with.  If there products aren't to your liking, so be it, but from my perch, they give some of the best bang for the buck and I haven't been disappointed with any of their products and I definitely haven't been disappointed with their service. In a hobby where so many disappoint with service Uptone is definitely NOT one of them.

 

From my perch, the complaints seem absurd and John's response, while overly detailed, demonstrates his passion for his products as well as his good name. Just my two cents. 

I totally agree with you. I've never seen such a professional and friendlier service as the one provided by Uptone!

And yes I am grateful to Alex for proving the audiophile community with so many quality products at a reasonable price.

Indeed "best bang for the buck".

Thank you Alex :-)  

Jorge

[Ralf11]

the OP mentions rattles inside the unit, but maybe it is just a case of having a screw loose...

[tapatrick]

4 hours ago, Superdad said:

Okay, I’m done wasting my time with this. We have already lost about $600 with this fellow, not to mention the half dozen hours spent replying to his e-mails and dealing with this silly smear campaign over six forums. 

WTF?! Over 6 forums - this is an organised smear campaign for sure and shouldn’t be allowed. Why is this guy getting a platform?
 

Alex has always been courteous and generous in any dealings I’ve had as well as supplying great value products.  

[4est]

6 hours ago, Jud said:

Your points are correct. I was adding the fact that they are small enough that the loss of a small amount of paint or anodizing might not be apparent except under magnification.

It's not just magnified, but a flash always makes something like this look really bad.

[mikey8811]

Here is more of Alex's "transparency" posted on another board. At least the poster had the consideration to redact and block out personal details from the emails unlike others.

 

"Sooo, not to get into he said she said here but I had a very similar experience with uptone audio. I on the other hand purchased all new direct from Alex products. This is my experience without bogging down into great detail. 
1- several times my purchase was delayed even though product was paid. This happened on more than one occasion and occurred for two products I purchased. 2- I two had an iso regen fail and it was replaced after much bantering back and forth. So great but here’s an excerpt of correspondence;

Hi ——-
So let’s exchange the circuit board in your ISO REGEN for a new one (SQ is better, but we are not publicly discussing that since it is an in-line change; and one can tell version only by looking at the board).
Please mail just the IS REGEN (no PS or cables; and no special box—packing material/retail box is not returned) back to us at:
UpTone Audio LLC4647 Indian Peak RoadMariposa, California 95338USA
We will install a brand new board (so it will need some “break-in”) and ship back to you right away. Please include a note in the box.
Thanks and have a great weekend,—-——

I took issue with this statement “the sound quality is better but we are not publicly discussing it” this is where I started to get turned off from uptone products as it was disclosed to me that the early chips had issues and the third version was finally up to snuff. I’m not a fan of being a test bed for equipment from a company and it seams this is what was happening. 
2: I also had an lps1.2 fail and again it was replaced and much like the op the replacement came back dinged up and looking used (in Alex’s defence he sent new end plates) again some correspondence;

Hi ——-
Thanks for your thoughtful feedback. Yes, we can certainly improve in some areas.  
The LPS-1.2 issue was tough because:a) It took us a while to figure out why it was happening;b) It only occurred on about 5% of the units in the field, so we did not feel the need to alarm people (audiophiles are a skidish bunch and the LPS-1.2 is really our “cash cow”).
Even a failing LPS-1.2 could never harm an external device. Simply not possible with the safety design measures that are part of the product. So the possibility you raise was never a possibility—another reason we did not feel compelled to issue a formal alert. Such was considered carefully.
I’ll pick out and mail a nice pair of end panels for you. I assume that you have a Torx T10 size driver bit handy to remove the screws?
All the best,
———

again there was a issue with the product and failure rate. At the end of the day I sold all my uptone gear including a js2 and moved on. Alex seams like a really nice guy but parts of his business model seam a bit off. Just putting it out there that the op may seam vengeful but there is some merit in his dealings.

 

[SoundAndMotion]

I buy a lot of stuff online. In assessing whether I'll take the risk, I look at vendor ratings/comments (and the number thereof), product ratings/comments (and the number thereof) and price (what could I lose?). Nearly no vendors who enjoy many evaluations get 100% top ratings. For me, a large quantity with a very high average means a lot.

 

Everybody needs to develop their own feel for their own risk/benefit.

 

I would like to thank @mikey8811 and @Superdad for their contributions to this and the other similar threads elsewhere.

 

I have not been in the market for Uptone products, but should I be in the future, using MY risk/benefit calculation, I consider this thread a strong endorsement and wouldn't hesitate to buy from Uptone. Thanks.

[Priaptor]

8 hours ago, mikey8811 said:

Here is more of Alex's "transparency" posted on another board. At least the poster had the consideration to redact and block out personal details from the emails unlike others.

 

"Sooo, not to get into he said she said here but I had a very similar experience with uptone audio. I on the other hand purchased all new direct from Alex products. This is my experience without bogging down into great detail. 
1- several times my purchase was delayed even though product was paid. This happened on more than one occasion and occurred for two products I purchased. 2- I two had an iso regen fail and it was replaced after much bantering back and forth. So great but here’s an excerpt of correspondence;

Hi ——-
So let’s exchange the circuit board in your ISO REGEN for a new one (SQ is better, but we are not publicly discussing that since it is an in-line change; and one can tell version only by looking at the board).
Please mail just the IS REGEN (no PS or cables; and no special box—packing material/retail box is not returned) back to us at:
UpTone Audio LLC4647 Indian Peak RoadMariposa, California 95338USA
We will install a brand new board (so it will need some “break-in”) and ship back to you right away. Please include a note in the box.
Thanks and have a great weekend,—-——

I took issue with this statement “the sound quality is better but we are not publicly discussing it” this is where I started to get turned off from uptone products as it was disclosed to me that the early chips had issues and the third version was finally up to snuff. I’m not a fan of being a test bed for equipment from a company and it seams this is what was happening. 
2: I also had an lps1.2 fail and again it was replaced and much like the op the replacement came back dinged up and looking used (in Alex’s defence he sent new end plates) again some correspondence;

Hi ——-
Thanks for your thoughtful feedback. Yes, we can certainly improve in some areas.  
The LPS-1.2 issue was tough because:a) It took us a while to figure out why it was happening;b) It only occurred on about 5% of the units in the field, so we did not feel the need to alarm people (audiophiles are a skidish bunch and the LPS-1.2 is really our “cash cow”).
Even a failing LPS-1.2 could never harm an external device. Simply not possible with the safety design measures that are part of the product. So the possibility you raise was never a possibility—another reason we did not feel compelled to issue a formal alert. Such was considered carefully.
I’ll pick out and mail a nice pair of end panels for you. I assume that you have a Torx T10 size driver bit handy to remove the screws?
All the best,
———

again there was a issue with the product and failure rate. At the end of the day I sold all my uptone gear including a js2 and moved on. Alex seams like a really nice guy but parts of his business model seam a bit off. Just putting it out there that the op may seam vengeful but there is some merit in his dealings.

 

I can't read your whole post BUT regarding "sound quality being better but not publicly discussing it" issue, let me say, I have been very close to many manufacturers over the years and this is the business of the hobby we choose to purchase from and it is at no fault of the end-manufacturer like Uptone.  This is the same with manufacturers of speakers, amps, etc.  They often don't have control over what the parts manufacturer are using or should I say changing and these parts suppliers often look for "better" or "cheaper" ways to manufacturer so and end manufacturer like Uptone, Audio Research, Magico, CH, Wilson, Raidho, take your pick is at the mercy of those manufacturing parts for them. Very often it is an "unannounced upgrade" because it's not really an upgrade with version change it's just the way it is in this hobby; and quite frankly in most industries relying on parts from others. 

 

Would you be happier if Alex did what some others in the business do, when they can no longer get the "original" parts for their design and announce a "version" change, with a new higher price rendering your product less valuable?  Yes there are many manufacturers I know of, rather not name them, when faced with "new parts" because the old ones are no longer available immediately announce a version upgrade, making the almost identical product obsolete and charging more for the new one. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, Priaptor said:

Would you be happier if Alex did what some others in the business do, when they can no longer get the "original" parts for their design and announce a "version" change, with a new higher price rendering your product less valuable?  Yes there are many manufacturers I know of, rather not name them, when faced with "new parts" because the old ones are no longer available immediately announce a version upgrade, making the almost identical product obsolete and charging more for the new one. 

This is exactly what came to my mind. It happens all the time.

 

Running changes also happen when a company finds a way to improve the product and makes the business decision to keep it quiet. Us audiophiles are a finicky bunch that can raise hell if we find out about these changes. Imagine how any running changes and parts swaps happen in automobiles and other industries. 

[plissken]

59 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

This is exactly what came to my mind. It happens all the time.

 

Running changes also happen when a company finds a way to improve the product and makes the business decision to keep it quiet. Us audiophiles are a finicky bunch that can raise hell if we find out about these changes. Imagine how any running changes and parts swaps happen in automobiles and other industries. 

 

Many manufacturers maintain a product line naming convention for model # while continually revisioning the product. They simply name v1,v2,v3 etc..

 

As time goes on older product becomes less valuable used. Go figure.

 

In audiophiledom running changes should be readily apparent, hearing wise that is 😉 Shouldn't need a revision # to reliably tell when a product PCB layout, part change, etc... happens.

[marce]

20 hours ago, 4est said:

It's not just magnified, but a flash always makes something like this look really bad.

And a true macro lens, correct light as you say is needed to get a real picture of the damage, not easy to take close up pictures of black painted/anodised parts...

 

 

[Superdad]

Regarding @mikey8811's continuation of multi-forum posting of false or mis-leading statements and messages taken out of context, there is so much to unpack here, and really it is a waste of my time.  But I will set some facts straight and well as repeat the basis for what all this is about--so folks can judge for themselves.

 

While it would normally be easier for me to quote sections and reply, it is clear that I am going to need to copy/paste this information into replies on the near half-dozen other sites where he is duplicating his baseless campaign.  Also, a couple of the points I'll make make may be in response to falsehoods posted on one of the other forums.

 

A) He claims that we sold him (the only sale ever made to him directly, and it was at below our cost) a used UltraCap LPS-1.2.  This is patently false. He bases this on only two things:

1) The fact that the black-oxide Torx screws we used look a bit ugly in their sockets (and I right away had offered to mail him a bag of new screws);

2) The fact that the unit he got happened to have a PCB board which was 0.1mm short (within our PCB firm's tolerances)--just enough so that the end plates don't squeeze the PCB enough to prevent a slight movement of the board in the case if you rock it from side-to-side.

3) We shipped his unit after receiving new boards and testing/assembling a new run. When we received payment from him, we simply took a full, retail boxed unit from the shelf and packed/shipped it. He received for $250 (including FedEx shipping) exactly what any other buyer would have received for $435 (plus shipping).

HE CAN PROVE TO HIMSELF THAT THE UNIT WAS NEW:

Every PCB in every product we produce has a 4-digit date code (this is different from version or revision number). On the UltraCap LPS-1.2 PCBs this number is located on the board next to the power switch. First 2 digits are the week number (01~52), second 2 digits are the year. In 2019 we produced two runs of 250 boards each. The first run was in February, the second run was in July--with boards actually received by us a couple months later. If Mr. Cheah slides the board from the case, he will find the date code of 2719. That is June 2019, when the bare board was produced--populating of board and receipt by UpTone was about 8 weeks after that.

 

B) He quotes another client who posted that he received goods back from us with nicks/dings/scratches on the cases:

1) Such damage NEVER occurs here at our facility. My assistant assembles hundreds of units and she comes to me when she sees even the smallest of blemishes on a new case or plate.

2) It is always astounding to us the condition that some repair units arrive to us, often due to the total lack of care taken either in their home use of it or in their packing for shipping.  People send things to us loose in poly/Tyvek shipping envelopes. We also see people being extremely rough with I/O jacks--including ripping them from the PCB, tearing off traces in the process--and turning the boards to scrap.

3) We always return repairs in the same case as received it--and we wrap/pack in the same foam as new units. Sometimes we'll receive a unit with so many scars that I can't bear to send it back in that same case. So I'll pick out some vastly better looking--but still 'B' stock--chassis parts and use those.

 

C) He complains that when we repaired his original LPS-1 under warranty, we replaced his entire circuit board with one from someone else's unit. This is true, but to his benefit:

1) We could have repaired his old board. But it is a complex design, repairs take a lot of time, and there would be possibility of other parts having been stressed but not found/replaced.

2) Original UltraCap LPS-1 boards have not been produced since 2017. The model was discontinued and superseded by a more advanced, more costly design.

3) We sometimes accept trade-ins of working, original LPS-1 units from people who want to upgrade to the new model. That deal is $275. We do not make any money on these trade ins, but it does give us working units to use for repair/exchanges for the few LPS-1 units that come back for repair under warranty.

4) We sometimes also repair LPS-1 boards, but because Mr. Cheah is located overseas we felt it would be more prudent to send him a fully test traded-in board.

5) Yes, the original LPS-1, with about 2,000 units sold, had a higher than expected long-term failure rate--about 3%. With the more advanced LPS-1.2 we made a number of architectural changes to address reliability, though it too, owing to some complex aspects (candidly explained elsewhere) has had a few hiccups.

 

D) He posts about a user who was concerned that we replaced his ISO REGEN circuit board with a newer version. This is odd because:

a) I know who that gentleman is (in Canada) and I checked our records. THE UNIT HE SENT TO US WORKED PERFECTLY--on my bench with the LeCroy protocol analyzer, and in my audio system.

b) Because he was in Canada, and because I wanted to be sure to rule out his problem being with the ISO REGEN, we installed a newer board for him free of charge--and paid for the international shipping.

c) Like any manufacturer, we reserve the right to change and improve our products without notice. Sometimes there are very small parts where we can make a difference. Usually the change is on purpose, but sometimes a part will go out of production, forcing us to search for a equal or better substitute.  The idea that we need to publicly disclose every in-line change  is ridiculous.

d) If we make a large enough revision to the basic design of a product, we will announce that. All our circuit boards have version numbers. The boards are populated with tiny surface parts, placed and soldered by expensive machines in a factory. This is not the old days where hand updates can be made. And since the retail price of our products--at only double our actual costs--is most all in their single circuit board, offering to upgrade users to a slightly newer revision would be prohibitively expensive, either for us or for the customer.

 

E) Mr. Y.A. Cheah claims that he has not received any refund. This also is false.

1) Below is a screenshot of the notification of chargeback that I received from my e-commerce site. HE RECEIVED HIS MONEY BACK LAST YEAR!

2) It is UpTone who has lost--and much more than just the cost of the NEW PRODUCT WHICH HE STILL HAS IN HIS POSSESSION. There were shipping charges, the cost of the original replaced unit, and the hours spent both in e-mails with him and now in defending our reputation across multiple forums.

3) I have challenged the chargeback and it will be up to his credit card company to decide the matter in another month or so.

----

 

To summarize: 

==This is a baseless campaign by a person who we treated well (as we do all our clients) but has some other agenda.

==This is about scratched screws and a perfectly working product with a circuit board which knocks 1mm from side-to-side in its rails if you shake it.

==Every true fact or e-mail from ANY UpTone client anywhere in the world will prove just how exemplary our customer service is. As do the many kind comments offered here and elsewhere.

==Am I perfect? No. Are our products perfect? No. But we are producing and selling good value products at a reasonable price and treating our clients more than fairly. (It is not as if we are selling products each costing thousands of dollars; And we have all heard stories about audio companies selling expensive products and not treating their customers well.)

== We often loose money going the extra mile and giving people the benefit of the doubt. Because I take the long view about generating customer loyalty. We don't advertise, so word-of-keyboard is what drives the business.

==This April marks the 10-year anniversary of UpTone Audio (begun in 2010 when I formed as an LLC with MusiCaps after the closure of Hovland Company). So we must be doing something right...

 

Really I am done with this matter now.

Cheers,

 

Alex Crespi

UpTone Audio LLC

 

 

[plissken]

The old adage, if you bumped into an asshole in the morning, he's the asshole. If you've bumped into assholes all day you're the asshole.

 

Just send the customer their exit email and be done.