PSA: Be Careful Dealing With Uptone Audio

[rickca]

On 1/8/2020 at 1:43 PM, Superdad said:

the unit he originally sent to us looked like it had been severely over-voltaged

Doesn't this void the warranty?  Seems to me that you have clearly been more than reasonable and accommodative with this customer.

[Account Closed]

Chris, This should end. This guy obviously has an agenda here and it just doesn't seem right to continue to give him this platform to pursue it. This is just my opinion but the whole thing does not pass the smell test. I first saw his post on the Roon forum and then here and it is reportedly on several others. All this over a scratched screw and a rattle just does not add up. I am not going to speculate about motives but something more is going on here.

[The Computer Audiophile]

I think allowing this discussion has shown people what they need to know. 

[Superdad]

16 minutes ago, bobflood said:

I first saw his post on the Roon forum and then here and it is reportedly on several others.

 

On the Roon forum too?

Do you have a link? Though I am done and have said enough, I can at least paste my factual rebuttal there once. Maybe the Roon mods took the thread down because searching there does not turn it up.

 

So far he has repeated all his same posts at:

What’s Best Forum

Audiogon

Audio Asylum

xTremePlace

PS Audio Community (now removed)

Roon Community

 

I am sure there are other places around the web. Everyone can feel free to point them out to me. Thanks.

[Account Closed]

36 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

On the Roon forum too?

Do you have a link? Though I am done and have said enough, I can at least paste my factual rebuttal there once. Maybe the Roon mods took the thread down because searching there does not turn it up.

 

So far he has repeated all his same posts at:

What’s Best Forum

Audiogon

Audio Asylum

xTremePlace

PS Audio Community (now removed)

Roon Community

 

I am sure there are other places around the web. Everyone can feel free to point them out to me. Thanks.

I meant the Roon Community and I just looked and can't find it anymore so they must have taken it down.

[Account Closed]

38 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I think allowing this discussion has shown people what they need to know. 

I see both sides but at this point I still think this should end. The greater danger now in my opinion is that more of this will be forthcoming if those who wish to pursue these types of agenda believe that this is a place that they can do it with impunity. The damage to this site's reputation could be considerable.

[The Computer Audiophile]

48 minutes ago, bobflood said:

I see both sides but at this point I still think this should end. The greater danger now in my opinion is that more of this will be forthcoming if those who wish to pursue these types of agenda believe that this is a place that they can do it with impunity. The damage to this site's reputation could be considerable.

I disagree. Allowing people to show their colors and readers to flesh out agendas, followed by numerous positive experiences, really shows something usable. Removing posts only adds to an aura of cover up. 
 

It’s like when the UN allowed Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to speak and deny the Holocaust. My mother in law hated it. I loved it. It showed how foolish he was to the whole world. 

[Account Closed]

28 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I disagree. Allowing people to show their colors and readers to flesh out agendas, followed by numerous positive experiences, really shows something usable. Removing posts only adds to an aura of cover up. 
 

It’s like when the UN allowed Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to speak and deny the Holocaust. My mother in law hated it. I loved it. It showed how foolish he was to the whole world. 

I am not suggesting deleting the thread, just locking it. As I said, I see both points of view as options but of course the choice is yours to make. Thanks for listening.

[Mercman]

5 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I disagree. Allowing people to show their colors and readers to flesh out agendas, followed by numerous positive experiences, really shows something usable. Removing posts only adds to an aura of cover up. 
 

It’s like when the UN allowed Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to speak and deny the Holocaust. My mother in law hated it. I loved it. It showed how foolish he was to the whole world. 

I have to agree with Chris. What I find amusing is that these 2 unhappy customers go off the deep end in their rage directed at Alex.  I can only wonder how these two guys will handle real tragedy in their lives. 
 

 

[Summit]

9 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I think allowing this discussion has shown people what they need to know. 

 

I agree, forum like this is for members to share their experience with everything from quality control to sonic impressions. It is always good to let both parts share their descriptions so we all can make our own conclusions. No member or manufacturer has been favored and no cover up.

 

I have read and made my own decisions NOT to buy from manufacturer like Paul Haynes for example, because of the very long delivery time, LH Labs for not even deliver already payed for gear. Others can make their own decisions, but to do that we need to hear both sides.

 

I think personally that the frenzy of complaint re something IMO as trivial as the paint of a screw of a devise that is easy to change by the costumer, is disproportionate.   

[Dutch]

10 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

On the Roon forum too?

Do you have a link?

It’s the link below and you’re right the mods there closed the topic and have hidden it from sight. Google still shows the topic though and one can still browse to it.

 

https://community.roonlabs.com/t/psa-be-careful-dealing-with-uptone-audio/90734

 

I saw him write on Audiogon that he believes in karma so I suppose he’ll have some coming to him...this is blown way out of proportion and certainly out of line.

 

Edit; it was posted to Audiocircle too (and deleted): https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=167297.0

[tapatrick]

50 minutes ago, Summit said:

 

... It is always good to let both parts share their descriptions so we all can make our own conclusions. No member or manufacturer has been favored and no cover up.   

 

8 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I disagree. Allowing people to show their colors and readers to flesh out agendas.

Just saying... While I agree in general and in principle with the call for openness so that people can make up their own minds I think free speech for all is obviously a more complex issue because all things i.e. opinions are not equal in life. Not many will have the time or patience to read every detail and will probably make their minds up after the first one or 2 posts, especially if seen across multiple fora.

 

Alex and parties like him have a lot more to lose that the attacker and I think that warrants attention too. I'm not suggesting censorship is the answer even if possible - with social media now the genie is out of the box. The question is hanging in the air why exactly this concerted effort is happening across a wide spectrum of influence. I might very well be wrong but this does seem a tad fanatical.

[lmitche]

41 minutes ago, tapatrick said:

 

Just saying... While I agree in general and in principle with the call for openness so that people can make up their own minds I think free speech for all is obviously a more complex issue because all things i.e. opinions are not equal in life. Not many will have the time or patience to read every detail and will probably make their minds up after the first one or 2 posts, especially if seen across multiple fora.

 

Alex and parties like him have a lot more to lose that the attacker and I think that warrants attention too. I'm not suggesting censorship is the answer even if possible - with social media now the genie is out of the box. The question is hanging in the air why exactly this concerted effort is happening across a wide spectrum of influence. I might very well be wrong but this does seem a tad fanatical.

Here is a similar story, with the perspective of time.

 

https://www.thecut.com/2017/12/the-park-slope-blue-hat-incident-10-years-later.html

 

 

 

[tapatrick]

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

Here is a similar story, with the perspective of time.

 

https://www.thecut.com/2017/12/the-park-slope-blue-hat-incident-10-years-later.html

 

 

 

LOL! I joined a local neighbourhood social media forum presented as good for the community etc. I lasted a week on there as it wasn't benefitting anyone...

[Middy]

If anything it gives me more confidence in Uptone and Alex as a person.

Hate to think what grief some small companies have to deal with in the background, this expensive time sponge must be up thier in the top 10 pains in the ass.

 

Most countries have decent consumer rights for the bad ones...

This isnt a bad company in any stretch of the imagination.

[charlesphoto]

1 hour ago, tapatrick said:

LOL! I joined a local neighbourhood social media forum presented as good for the community etc. I lasted a week on there as it wasn't benefitting anyone...

 

Oh man , a whole week? I lasted about two days... talk about call out culture to the extreme! I thought some NIMBY was going to call the police on me for just daring to be on the forum. 

[Mustu]

I have purchased several units from Alex and the LPS1.2 FAILED it was replaced no questions asked and was dealt with in the most professional manner by Alex and was even shipped out the next day. I have never had any bad experience with Alex ( UpTone ever! ) I would blindly purchase and deal with them any day! 
 

 

[bilboda]

I think op should just enjoy the music with perfectly functioning gear, Resale value? Who cares? He's already ahead of the game and his issue is trivial and easily resolved. Sold a black phonitor e with clear shiny scratches repaired with car touch up paint that the buyer was really pleased with, or as someone suggested a Sharpie but I find them too purpleish. Torx drivers are cheap, I mean really cheap. It was a fun and interesting read though...

[Superdad]

4 minutes ago, bilboda said:

I think op should just enjoy the music with perfectly functioning gear...

It was a fun and interesting read though...

 

Just to put a coda on this:

The credit card company sided with him, refunding his money and deducting from UpTone (plus extra fees). So in the end, this person got a brand new product for free—due to his spinning a tale of woe and complaining that the screws we not perfect. 

All I got was a headache chasing him around on a half-dozen web forums to keep the tar of his yarn from sulllying our reputation for customer-first service.

I guess that such was bound to occur—with one out of more than 6,000 customers over the past 5 years. Given that our e-commerce dashboard shows we have a 48.6% repeat client rate I ought not to be too concerned. 

[plissken]

20 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

Just to put a coda on this:

The credit card company sided with him, refunding his money and deducting from UpTone (plus extra fees). So in the end, this person got a brand new product for free—due to his spinning a tale of woe and complaining that the screws we not perfect. 

All I got was a headache chasing him around on a half-dozen web forums to keep the tar of his yarn from sulllying our reputation for customer-first service.

I guess that such was bound to occur—with one out of more than 6,000 customers over the past 5 years. Given that our e-commerce dashboard shows we have a 48.6% repeat client rate I ought not to be too concerned. 

 

I worked in the industry. CC companies always side with the consumer. 

[k-man]

59 minutes ago, Superdad said:

Just to put a coda on this:

The credit card company sided with him, refunding his money and deducting from UpTone (plus extra fees). So in the end, this person got a brand new product for free—due to his spinning a tale of woe and complaining that the screws we not perfect.

@austinpop I might have noticed you have sold a Lush ^2 cable to this 'Mikey' fella. Either you or @PeterSt watch in case you fall into similar circumstances as Superdad here.

[PeterSt]

For those who like mud throwing ... I have sad news.

BOTH parties here are to be trusted, but both apparently do not have the experience ... well ... I have.

 

 

This is how it should look like when customs opened a package for inspection (see the green tape). But this surely does not happen all the time; I experienced this only once that I have heard of, plus coincidentally once with a flight of my own.

But packages are opened all the time ... And when not sealed with explicit tape, it's often carefully sealed again, the customer not even knowing how we packed it. On a side note, the picture above does not show the real damages to these both boxes, but I guarantee you they look as 10-times used. But both boxes were new when they left here.

 

What am I getting at ?

 

In one of the boxes you see, there is a PC from us. The thing was taken apart completely. Cooling fan cables were not connected any more, switches had been taken out and put back in upside down (very cosy (not) for a dipswitch and trouble-shooting further problems), and then also to notice that the whole issue came to light when the PC ran hot and we couldn't tell how.

The prosperous matter in this case is that this concerned a long-term customer who started blaming customs right from the start instead of thinking that our QC wasn't the best. Of course the tape customs applied helps too here.

 

Talking about Lush^2 ... only 3 months or so back, a customer received an open package (he saw it being dropped on his doorstep while it was open), the both crucial connectors missing from the package. Had this package been sealed again (nicely or poorly) he would have been assured we forgot the connectors.

 

I have so many stories, some working out OK, some working out not-so-good (costing someone additional money). But one thing: I take it for granted right from the start that customs does these things. And I quite well know in which countries this happens (Malaysia included, Thailand included (photo above). Point is: you just can't imagine what they all do to find strange stuff inside, or why in haven's sake switches get disassembled. Or why cooling fans power connectors are taken off.

 

 

 

And not one, but even two. In the end most probably everything, but then they don't know where to put it back. It is outrageous. And from the customer:

 

Attached please find photos of cooling fan and wire harness tied near the front panel. I found one Y-connector cord which is unconnected. Is the fan (mounted on right side panel) male connector supposed to be connected with this famale Y cable ? 

 

Also I noticed that the emergency cooling switch (right front) does not kick start the two emergency fans automatically when the switch is up (auto mode) even the CPU temp is 60 C ? What is the CPU temp to auto kick start the fans ? When playing back I always turn on emergency fans by lower the emergency switch. What is the normal setting for emergency switch ? 

 

Yes, this too took numerous emails to a. sort out what was going on and b. solve the issues (after finding them). But all in good spirit and then suddenly money doesn't play a role much.

 

In the case of Y A I myself am pretty sure that customs didn't have a torque screwdriver at hand and so they tried something else instead. The picture shown (later in the thread) obviously shows total-damage to the screws which never ever will be from a little worn-out screw driver. But what obviously goes wrong here is that person A blames person B because customs can't have done this, and person B feels attacked and does not investigate further whether maybe the shown pictures could lead to customs behavior after all. And then they start fighting instead of blaming customs ...

 

Really, the number of times such things happened to us are not countable on two hands, so one can suspect such issues if even the slightest looks or feels wrong.

Add to this the nature of people from that area (which includes not being able to buy proper tools, which includes feeling helpless because no "physical help" available really, which includes, well, all we would not be able to envision because we live in "the west". Maybe @STC can confirm this by his angle of view (no need to respond if you don't like to).

 

On 2/2/2020 at 6:36 PM, k-man said:

austinpop I might have noticed you have sold a Lush ^2 cable to this 'Mikey' fella. Either you or @PeterSt watch in case you fall into similar circumstances as Superdad here.

 

No worries. Y A is a fine customer already (which out of all happened after this thread emerged, while I only found it today). And let me add to it that some people are more demanding than others which again originates from the "being helpless" which really is so for quite some countries in this world.

 

The verdict:

Alex @Superdad, you apparently missed the fact that customs do this to you. If still possible, someone should open that unit and find the source of the rattling noise. You may well find my PC situation in there.

Y A @mikey8811, you couldn't know and had no other choice than blaming the supplier. For a next time, investigate the techniques people or companies (or customs) use to let packaging look like unopened. Also maybe investigate track records of people / suppliers (/ manufacturers) to see the ill-logic of matters.

 

Alex, what could be lose inside ? Answer: nothing I bet ya. Unless something happens (happened) to it like that PC.

 

 

Addendum for a bit of fun:

I once sent a non-insured low jitter clock assembly to a local customer in Holland, by normal mail. It got lost.

I sent a next assembly to the same customer, knowing that the chances would be too low to let that happen again. So why to insure it (value was 120 euros or so). It got lost again.

Then I agreed with the customer to over-value and insure it for 500 euros; we agreed money would be left for a nice dinner for two if it would happen again and I could claim the 500.

And yes, it happened and the claim of 500 was in order and fulfilled. OK, the dinner never happened.

The customer now came collecting his clock assembly.

 

Sh*t happens everywhere, and sometimes of magnitudes we can not imagine. I hope you two can get along again and that Y A is eventually able to make a nice Thai ending (ahum) of all his forum threads; I really can't imagine the slightest that Alex / Uptone is even capable of doing the things he is accused of, but this, sadly, includes the kind of admitting that it could have happened in his offices, looking at the screws (Alex, man, look closer !). And Y A, please, I tell you that Alex can be trusted (I am a customer too, he is a customer too, etc.). And if you can't trust him then you better don't trust me as well (FWIW - haha). I feel quite similar(ly operating).

 

Regards,

Peter

 

[STC]

34 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

For those who like mud throwing ... I have sad news.

BOTH parties here are to be trusted, but both apparently do not have the experience ... well ... I have.

 

 

This is how it should look like when customs opened a package for inspection (see the green tape). But this surely does not happen all the time; I experienced this only once that I have heard of, plus coincidentally once with a flight of my own.

But packages are opened all the time ... And when not sealed with explicit tape, it's often carefully sealed again, the customer not even knowing how we packed it. On a side note, the picture above does not show the real damages to these both boxes, but I guarantee you they look as 10-times used. But both boxes were new when they left here.

 

What am I getting at ?

 

In one of the boxes you see, there is a PC from us. The thing was taken apart completely. Cooling fan cables were not connected any more, switches had been taken out and put back in upside down (very cosy (not) for a dipswitch and trouble-shooting further problems), and then also to notice that the whole issue came to light when the PC ran hot and we couldn't tell how.

The prosperous matter in this case is that this concerned a long-term customer who started blaming customs right from the start instead of thinking that our QC wasn't the best. Of course the tape customs applied helps too here.

 

Talking about Lush^2 ... only 3 months or so back, a customer received an open package (he saw it being dropped on his doorstep while it was open), the both crucial connectors missing from the package. Had this package been sealed again (nicely or poorly) he would have been assured we forgot the connectors.

 

I have so many stories, some working out OK, some working out not-so-good (costing someone additional money). But one thing: I take it for granted right from the start that customs does these things. And I quite well know in which countries this happens (Malaysia included, Thailand included (photo above). Point is: you just can't imagine what they all do to find strange stuff inside, or why in haven's sake switches get disassembled. Or why cooling fans power connectors are taken off.

 

 

 

And not one, but even two. In the end most probably everything, but then they don't know where to put it back. It is outrageous. And from the customer:

 

Attached please find photos of cooling fan and wire harness tied near the front panel. I found one Y-connector cord which is unconnected. Is the fan (mounted on right side panel) male connector supposed to be connected with this famale Y cable ? 

 

Also I noticed that the emergency cooling switch (right front) does not kick start the two emergency fans automatically when the switch is up (auto mode) even the CPU temp is 60 C ? What is the CPU temp to auto kick start the fans ? When playing back I always turn on emergency fans by lower the emergency switch. What is the normal setting for emergency switch ? 

 

Yes, this too took numerous emails to a. sort out what was going on and b. solve the issues (after finding them). But all in good spirit and then suddenly money doesn't play a role much.

 

In the case of Y A I myself am pretty sure that customs didn't have a torque screwdriver at hand and so they tried something else instead. The picture shown (later in the thread) obviously shows total-damage to the screws which never ever will be from a little worn-out screw driver. But what obviously goes wrong here is that person A blames person B because customs can't have done this, and person B feels attacked and does not investigate further whether maybe the shown pictures could lead to customs behavior after all. And then they start fighting instead of blaming customs ...

 

Really, the number of times such things happened to us are not countable on two hands, so one can suspect such issues if even the slightest looks or feels wrong.

Add to this the nature of people from that area (which includes not being able to buy proper tools, which includes feeling helpless because no "physical help" available really, which includes, well, all we would not be able to envision because we live in "the west". Maybe @STC can confirm this by his angle of view (no need to respond if you don't like to).

 

 

No worries. Y A is a fine customer already (which out of all happened after this thread emerged, while I only found it today). And let me add to it that some people are more demanding than others which again originates from the "being helpless" which really is so for quite some countries in this world.

 

The verdict:

Alex @Superdad, you apparently missed the fact that customs do this to you. If still possible, someone should open that unit and find the source of the rattling noise. You may well find my PC situation in there.

Y A @mikey8811, you couldn't know and had no other choice than blaming the supplier. For a next time, investigate the techniques people or companies (or customs) use to let packaging look like unopened. Also maybe investigate track records of people / suppliers (/ manufacturers) to see the ill-logic of matters.

 

Alex, what could be lose inside ? Answer: nothing I bet ya. Unless something happens (happened) to it like that PC.

 

 

Addendum for a bit of fun:

I once sent a non-insured low jitter clock assembly to a local customer in Holland, by normal mail. It got lost.

I sent a next assembly to the same customer, knowing that the chances would be too low to let that happen again. So why to insure it (value was 120 euros or so). It got lost again.

Then I agreed with the customer to over-value and insure it for 500 euros; we agreed money would be left for a nice dinner for two if it would happen again and I could claim the 500.

And yes, it happened and the claim of 500 was in order and fulfilled. OK, the dinner never happened.

The customer now came collecting his clock assembly.

 

Sh*t happens everywhere, and sometimes of magnitudes we can not imagine. I hope you two can get along again and that Y A is eventually able to make a nice Thai ending (ahum) of all his forum threads; I really can't imagine the slightest that Alex / Uptone is even capable of doing the things he is accused of, but this, sadly, includes the kind of admitting that it could have happened in his offices, looking at the screws (Alex, man, look closer !). And Y A, please, I tell you that Alex can be trusted (I am a customer too, he is a customer too, etc.). And if you can't trust him then you better don't trust me as well (FWIW - haha). I feel quite similar(ly operating).

 

Regards,

Peter

 

Peter, my poor eye sight is telling they were checked by UPS. Some courier companies do check and certify that the parcel ok to pass thru local customs. Usually customs got no time for this. 

[luisma]

2 hours ago, PeterSt said:

Talking about Lush^2 ... only 3 months or so back, a customer received an open package (he saw it being dropped on his doorstep while it was open), the both crucial connectors missing from the package. Had this package been sealed again (nicely or poorly) he would have been assured we forgot the connectors.

Hahaha, You are correct Peter, I did considered either UPS / Customs or even your shop discarded or forgot the connectors, but I did not created a big fuzz about it and asked you politely and nicely for your help, privately not publicly, for replacement jumpers with a please. And you supplied the jumpers (and extras) right away overnight (kudos and thank you)

On the other hand you could have been assured I claimed the connectors were not inside to get free extra jumpers from you ;-), kind of a sneaky customer who likes freebies.

The weird thing is customs / UPS (or was it fedex?) removed the jumpers, I don't really know what they were thinking and that's why I "remotely" mentioned that initially could have been missing (again without a fuzz). And BTW if you remember I jinxed the shipping of your cable mentioning "that this was Florida"

Thank you for the cable is working great.

 

More on topic, I am a customer of Uptone, owning a JS-2 and LPS 1.2 (which unfortunately failed after 2 / 3 months) and I was pushing the limits on the amps it could deliver powering a DAC and an Allo Bridge at the same time so I'm not surprised it failed because of misuse on my part (technically not intentional misuse, because the Allo bridge supposedly should not take more than 0.4amps which is not true as if Sparky loses power even with the jumper removed the load moves over to the bridge connection), Alex @Superdadreplaced the LPS 1.2 immediately and all I can say I vouch for his customer service and satisfactory turn around (same with Peter).

 

This person @mikey8811 after purchasing a second hand product sending it back for warranty, getting this warranty fulfilled he still have the audacity to complain about almost not noticeable blemishes?, gets his money back with a chargeback, and still have the courage to post here and other forums about his bad experience?

 

Very wisely Chris, he left this thread open so people could see both sides.

 

Alex, I'm sorry but you are at fault my friend because "no good deed will go unpunished", maybe next time you should not be such a nice guy.

 

At the same time I believe Mr. Mikey is doing you a favor with his post (like Chris said) showing readers his true nature (and yours) so they can make an educated assessment.

 

 

 

 

[k-man]

I could have left this thread to speak for itself, but my post from Superdad's update was spurred because of what I came across in the Buy/Sell forum:

 

While the OP might protest his innocence on keeping to using the OEM supply, it is something I distrust, and Superdad was right to be inquisitive on the original failing LPS-1. While people do buy UpTone stuff without the original supply, this particular transaction makes me more suspicious, hence the post. Whilst it is respectful of @PeterSt to play nice on both sides and make the customs inspectors the bad folk in this pantomine, without returning back the LPS 1.2, it is fraud via the backdoor.