A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[ray-dude]

4 hours ago, HeeBroG said:

Does the use of a Uber USB cable still matter or is the USPCB just as good?

 

Are you powering the SlimRun USB separately?

Ive played with a bunch of different topologies but can’t point to a definitive preference yet. Initially I went NUC to Slim to USPCB to Tx-ultra SE to Lush^2 to DAVE. Then flipped so Slim was on the downstream side of the TX-ultra.
 

Currently I’m experimenting with the Tc-ultra out of the chain, and the Slim directly connecting my NUC to my DAVE, bouncing between a USPCB and Sablon cable as the final leg. i definitely still prefer the Tc-ultra in the chain, but I’m trying to isolate the various pieces (at least at first).
 

Ihave a bunch of other things in house to test as well, so too many moving pieces to recommend an optimal configuration. However I really like what I’m (not) hearing with the Slim. Definitely worth a listen. 
 

When things settle out, I’ll definitely share findings. 

[jean-michel6]

18 hours ago, Middy said:

Thank you  Jean Michael, it was your excellent report that made me ask if any more experienced here have tried it. 

I've been so invested in a USB chain i am nervous about trying something different.  Plus have the cash....

 

Good luck

 

Dave😀

Hi Dave , 

My usb chain was quite extreme 

supermicro mobo with clocks clocked by sclkex clock board 

sotm pcie usb card clocked  by sclkex board

Sotm tx usb ultra clocked  by sclkex board

dx usb hd clocked  by sclkex board

and all the associated psu .

without the psu the hardware alone was other  3 000  $

Now I have e-red dock 440$ , etherregen 650 $ and jcat netcard 440$ 

Total cost is 1500$ only 50% of previous set up and sound quality is much much better and it is simpler to use !

FortunatelyI was able to sell my previous dual pc set up and also several unused psu.

 

In this case simpler is clearly better .

 

[henke]

1 hour ago, jean-michel6 said:

Hi Dave , 

My usb chain was quite extreme 

supermicro mobo with clocks clocked by sclkex clock board 

sotm pcie usb card clocked  by sclkex board

Sotm tx usb ultra clocked  by sclkex board

dx usb hd clocked  by sclkex board

and all the associated psu .

without the psu the hardware alone was other  3 000  $

Now I have e-red dock 440$ , etherregen 650 $ and jcat netcard 440$ 

Total cost is 1500$ only 50% of previous set up and sound quality is much much better and it is simpler to use !

FortunatelyI was able to sell my previous dual pc set up and also several unused psu.

 

In this case simpler is clearly better .

 

Hello Jean Michel,

I wonder how your ered-dock etherregen and jcat netcard(server) are connected to each other and to the LAN? How do you stream to the ered-dock? Where are the music files stored?

[Middy]

Wow thats a heavy investment for a USB cable replacement 😀. Jean Michael 

 

I used to be time rich and cash poor,  my 2 year old boy changed that... to just poor..

If its as simple as an NUC> ethernet cable> into the Ered using Euphony i may start saving. 

Its knowing what to do, ive become a little fearful of asking the basics.. Its not Whats best forum here, but alot of the time above my knowledge level...

 

Thank you for your reply..😀

[jean-michel6]

14 hours ago, henke said:

Hello Jean Michel,

I wonder how your ered-dock etherregen and jcat netcard(server) are connected to each other and to the LAN? How do you stream to the ered-dock? Where are the music files stored?

In fact this is quite simple , you need to have an Ethernet switch . You need to use a good switch either an audiophile switch ( the etherregen for me is really excellent and good value) or an old Cisco switch like the meraki mx60 ( 60 $ used ) . The lan output of the jcat netcard and of the ered-dock are connected to the switch .You need also one line going too your router . 
I am today using very inexpensive cat 5e utp cable (4€ for 2 cable ) with excellent sq results . I used to try very expensive SOTM  cat 7 cable they were slightly better than my cheap cable , I probably need to try again as it was in a different setup.

For usb it is an other story as you need to use expensive audiophile cable to get any decent result.

 

The music files are stored on a 3tb 2.5”hdd connected in usb to the pc server running with daphile software . Music files are stored into ram and then streamed from there .

[jean-michel6]

13 hours ago, Middy said:

Wow thats a heavy investment for a USB cable replacement 😀. Jean Michael 

 

I used to be time rich and cash poor,  my 2 year old boy changed that... to just poor..

If its as simple as an NUC> ethernet cable> into the Ered using Euphony i may start saving. 

Its knowing what to do, ive become a little fearful of asking the basics.. Its not Whats best forum here, but alot of the time above my knowledge level...

 

Thank you for your reply..😀

I do understand... i have also toddlers but they are my grandchildren. Therefore I have some time and hopefully some cash 🙂

Foreword : if I advertise about this ered dock it is not to brag about my findings but really helping the community discover a product that deserves recognition . Contrary to the high end community this engineered company is having decent prices when you consider the hardware and human ware they have invested in their products.

 

It is really as simple as going from the nuc then to the switch then to the ered dock .

I don’t know if euphony can send music to upnp/dlna endpoint i will ask them .

I am using daphile , it is really easy to use , sound quality is very good with this software and it is free !

 

You need some knowledge to run daphile but it is not very difficult and there is instructions on daphile web site .

[matthias]

10 minutes ago, jean-michel6 said:

I am using daphile , it is really easy to use , sound quality is very good with this software and it is free !

You need some knowledge to run daphile but it is not very difficult and there is instructions on daphile web site .

 

Hi Jean-Michel,

 

did you compare Daphile vs. Audirvana, both via UPnP/DLNA ?

 

Thanks

 

Matt

[Gavin1977]

Short feedback on my recent experiences:

 

Gentoo Player

IMO Gentoo Player sounds better than Euphony.  I posted my findings on the Gentoo thread, but thought it might be of interest to people here as well as it has received some coverage, but not widely known.  Listening so far shows that the sonic signature is similar to Euphony, but the music has greater relief (reduced background processes, and lower noise floor perhaps?) vocals are also lovely and seem to have more presence and resolution.  Euphony is perhaps a bit more laid back and smoother sounding, but I think that is because it is not able to offer up as much detail retrieval. Gentoo Player uses a Real Time (RT) Kernal of linux that I think was orignally intended for use in AI and robotic automation - I think this might be the magic sauce?  Either way it's very interesting/impressive.  Testing was done on DNHE NUC, Paul Hynes SR7, Etherregen.  Both copies of software (Gentoo Player and Euphony) where run from USB.  I used the headless UEFI version of Gentoo Player for the comparision, the version with the xfce GUI also worked fine too.

 

I really disliked Audiolinux, mainly because I found it to be an absolute pain to set up as I had to constantly hunt out issues and implement workarounds in terminal.  I had a similar experience with Gentoo Player to start with, as I tried setting it up using terminal only (following what I understood from using Audiolinux).  Wasn’t great. However, use the web interface and it’s an absolute dream!  So easy and everything works spot on.  So make sure you use the web interface, Gentoo Player is then highly recommended.

 

I also thought that the audio benefits of Audiolinux were only moderate.  Audiolinux sounds similar to what direct playback from a NUC loaded with Roon Rock to me, nowhere near what Euphony achieves.  Not the case with GentooPlayer.  It’s in the same league as Euphony, and my experience so far is that it’s probably the slightly better sounding too...and it’s free!

 

Etherregen and Sotm txUSBultra

 

I had a nice uptick in sound quality using the txUSBultra in the chain between my NUC which I used Euphony to stream Tidal to my DAC (which was a Naim V1, but now upgraded to Hugo 2).

 

Very interesting that after adding the Etherregen I found that the txUSBUltra no longer had much appreciable benefit, it certainly wasn't detrimental to the sound, but perhaps it could be stated that the sound stage / reverb perhaps collapsed a little.  I sold my txUSBultra.  Perhaps this is just a simple case of it being better to provide a clean source to a server to start with, rather than trying to clean up any issues further down the chain.  Etherregen is a very good product.  Anyone else tried this combination?

 

Anyhow, my next audio adventure will be with Chord 2go + Etheregen - the 2go will hopefully be arriving in the next few days.  This comparison is inspired by the eRed-Dock and Etherregen postings on this thread (I nearly bought eRed-Dock, but then thought I could try the new Chord 2go in a similar config instead).

 

I all also be comparing this with an optimised Gentoo Player i.e. migrated onto Optaine drive and RAM booted.

[auricgoldfinger]

10 minutes ago, Gavin1977 said:

Very interesting that after adding the Etherregen I found that the txUSBUltra no longer had much appreciable benefit, it certainly wasn't detrimental to the sound, but perhaps it could be stated that the sound stage / reverb perhaps collapsed a little.  I sold my txUSBultra.  Perhaps this is just a simple case of it being better to provide a clean source to a server to start with, rather than trying to clean up any issues further down the chain.  Etherregen is a very good product.  Anyone else tried this combination?

 

What were you using to power the tX-USBultra before you sold it?

[jean-michel6]

12 hours ago, matthias said:

 

Hi Jean-Michel,

 

did you compare Daphile vs. Audirvana, both via UPnP/DLNA ?

 

Thanks

 

Matt

I tried Audirvana but it was running from my Mac mini where Daphile is run on Linux from my dedicated audiophile pc server  .Daphile does sound better but it is not a very fair comparison.

Undortunately Audirvana does not have a Linux version  

 

[Gavin1977]

11 hours ago, auricgoldfinger said:

 

What were you using to power the tX-USBultra before you sold it?

Good question - I have used both the provided wall wart and a spare 9v rail from my SR7.  Other peoples experience may differ, but I couldn't personally hear much difference with either senario.  To my ears (prior to deploying the EtherRegen), providing an SR7 rail to the NUC provided a good uplift, to the tx-USBultra I'm not so sure (but adding the hardware in the chain did make a noticable difference).  YMMV.

 

Based on this, my feedback in post #15908 was based on stock power supply to both Etherregen and tx-USBultra, plus SR7 to NUC only - namely because I couldn't hear an appreciable difference with tx-USBultra being powered by linear or not.  Etheregen is stated not to really benefit from a linear power supply, and equally I don't have a 5v linear to hand so this was not tested.  I did a number of switch outs - Etherregen only, tx-USBultra only and of course Etherregen + tx-USBultra.  I had a noticable preference towards just Etherregen in the chain only and excluding the tx-USBultra.

 

I was partly trying to evaluate what an upgrade path from NUC/SR7/Etherregen/tx-USBultra combination might sound compared to Etherregen/eRED-dock.  I don't have an eRED-dock, but it has given me a flavour of what might be expected.  I think @jean-michel6 might be onto something as per his post.

 

As I say, my next test, in a similar vein, will be Etherregen plus Chord 2go.  I just hope the 2go delivers and it keeps the dynamics of the SR7 powered NUC.  I did try Allo USBsignature (with and without Shanti), sounded good, but lacked dynamics IMO compared to SR7/NUC and was a definite step behind this combination.  So far I have a preference towards higher powered CPUs fed with very clean power as opposed to low power raspberry Pi's etc... which links in with some earlier discussions.

 

[Gavin1977]

On 3/4/2020 at 9:05 AM, jean-michel6 said:

I do understand... i have also toddlers but they are my grandchildren. Therefore I have some time and hopefully some cash 🙂

Foreword : if I advertise about this ered dock it is not to brag about my findings but really helping the community discover a product that deserves recognition . Contrary to the high end community this engineered company is having decent prices when you consider the hardware and human ware they have invested in their products.

 

It is really as simple as going from the nuc then to the switch then to the ered dock .

I don’t know if euphony can send music to upnp/dlna endpoint i will ask them .

I am using daphile , it is really easy to use , sound quality is very good with this software and it is free !

 

You need some knowledge to run daphile but it is not very difficult and there is instructions on daphile web site .

See my post above.  Also, try Gentoo Player - it does uPNP out.  Hopefully we can both support the same line of enquiry and bring further progress to the group.

[jean-michel6]

4 hours ago, Gavin1977 said:

See my post above.  Also, try Gentoo Player - it does uPNP out.  Hopefully we can both support the same line of enquiry and bring further progress to the group.

Hi Gavin ,

 

These new route are very interesting. 

In my set up I am not I think at all at the limit of what it can do .

I can still experiment with psu even though I already have very good ones .

I think I will try dual mp audio module one ac-dc module followed by one dc-dc one . You achieve dual regulation with outstanding psrr values . I will try that both on ered dock or jcat netcard .

One other route is to test Euphony and Gentoo compared to Daphile .

Last one will be maybe to try a high power mobo , the X11saa I am currently using is pentium 4200 . I may try the supermicro Xeon boards with 8 core cpu .

 

[guiltyboxswapper]

Based on @Gavin1977 observations, and with my own ER arriving, i'd long thought "much of the magic coming from the opticalRendu must lie in its ability to clean up ethernet on the way".  There's clearly markings of "regen" on the oR PCB.  This is easily apparent when simply switching a StarTech FMC with the Sonore opticalModule (another added level of clarity, dynamics, transients).

 

Since I still have a Farad Super3 19v and NUC i7 to hand, I decided to fire these up with GentooPlayer, using out of the box configuration with NAA.  This time the ER was connected directly to the NUC's ethernet port and fed with the Farad Super3 7v that I use for the opticalRendu.  Opticalmodule running Shanti 5v output on other side, from a Cisco 2960G. 

 

All cabling is Belden Catsnake for ethernet, Sablon Elite 2020 USB, and Ghent provided GAC4/1 ultra pro for XLRs and the DC inputs (via GX16-4s).  https://www.lambda-tek.com/Planet-MGB-TLX~sh/B3252019 SFPs used in all items (I too found them less mechanical sounding than the 80km StarTech variants).  There is vibration control throughout the whole chain, and some vibration sinking too.

 

I'm waiting for an MPAudio board for the oR, so I can move the super3 to the ER.  ER (before swap to NUC) was powered by ATL Audio 12v.

 

Whilst there was an ever so slight increase in overall dynamics (prob due to Super3 7v ER?), despite leaving it overnight to settle and warm up, the palpable/room presence and especially transient attack/edges were clearly lost. This is regardless of using the 100mbit or 1gig port on the A/B side of the ER.

 

It should be said though the ER _does_ certainly close the gap with the oR significantly - prior to this, they weren't so comparable.  ER comes recommended regardless !!

 

I do have an Allo USB Signature, but I'll wait for the MPAudio to arrive before comparing it with the ER and oR/oM.  I wouldn't be shocked to find its similar to @Gavin1977's outcomes due to lack of native onboard ether-regen circuits, but no harm in trying.

 

PS: NUC in passive case, industrial apacer RAM (4GB), and Gentoo allowed the CPU to turbo.

[Gavin1977]

Interesting findings - do you have a tx-USBultra to test with your opticalRendu?  I do wonder if this would also show little benefit from USB cleaning/reclocking.  I think the review of Allo USB signature also reported little benefit for adding it in (USB output must have been pretty clean).

[guiltyboxswapper]

@Gavin1977 I don't, no. Spent the money on the oR + oM hoping they'd have a clean enough output to begin with.

[Superdad]

3 hours ago, guiltyboxswapper said:

Based on @Gavin1977 observations, and with my own ER arriving, i'd long thought "much of the magic coming from the opticalRendu must lie in its ability to clean up ethernet on the way".

 

Hi: 

While I think I follow your experiments, it seems to me you are overlooking the simplest and best way to connect an EtherREGEN in a system with an opticalRendu as endpoint.  We went to a lot of trouble and expense to make the EtherREGEN symmetrical about its moat—in terms of reclocking, data, and power—so that B>A performance would be as good as A>B performance. And the primary reason we did this was so that the SFP port would also be a premium output—specifically for opticalRendu users!

 

So my suggestion is for you to disconnect most of you chain, run a copper cable to the EtherREGEN’s ‘B’ port, and a fiber cable straight to your opticalRendu. 
And that should also free up your best power supplies—to use for the opticalRendu and the EtherREGEN.

[guiltyboxswapper]

@Superdad the only reason I havent taken you advice (yet) is not having an equally good super3 available in the 7-12v range at the same time as the opticalRendu.  I'm actually sending my 19v Super3 back to Farad on Monday to be adjusted to 12v just so I can follow your advice - but thank you for pointing it out netherless!

[matthias]

31 minutes ago, guiltyboxswapper said:

@Superdad the only reason I havent taken you advice (yet) is not having an equally good super3 available in the 7-12v range at the same time as the opticalRendu.  I'm actually sending my 19v Super3 back to Farad on Monday to be adjusted to 12v just so I can follow your advice - but thank you for pointing it out netherless!

 

Some like @romaz and Emile from Taiko Audio reported that the ER sounds better when all is connected to the A-side only, so this might be worth a try.

 

Matt

[guiltyboxswapper]

@matthias you and Emile are correct.  With the Allo USB Sig, I prefer using the B side.  On the main system with the oR, A side (transients sound less "rounded" in that setup).  Have to try again with different power and topologies mind (i.e. skipping oM).

[matthias]

4 hours ago, guiltyboxswapper said:

@matthias you and Emile are correct.  With the Allo USB Sig, I prefer using the B side.  On the main system with the oR, A side (transients sound less "rounded" in that setup).  Have to try again with different power and topologies mind (i.e. skipping oM).

 

If you use the "better" A-side of the ER with "copper in" and "fiber out" and use it so as a FMC it would be very nice if you can comment on a SQ comparison of ER as FMC vs. OpticalModule.

 

Thank you 

 

Matt

[kennyb123]

3 hours ago, matthias said:

 

If you use the "better" A-side of the ER with "copper in" and "fiber out" and use it so as a FMC it would be very nice if you can comment on a SQ comparison of ER as FMC vs. OpticalModule.

 

This is on my list of things to figure out.  Two problems though.  First off, I really can’t achieve apples to apples with power supplies.  Also this would require me to go back to use of the Startech FMC upstream.  The harm the Startech is doing became evident when compared to the OM.  I’ll give it a shot though and report my findings with necessary caveats.

[kennyb123]

Before attempting to compare the ER (used as an FMC) to the OM, I decided to first assess the moat again. A lot changed since the ER arrived.  In my current configuration, I’m using the Planet Tech SFPs in the both the ER and OM with no attenuators.  The ER is still powered by the supplied SMPS and the OM is powered by an “el cheapo” power supply from China.
 

I listened to the first track from McCoy Tyler’s “New York Reunion”. The dynamics of the saxophone are off the charts on this.  I wanted to hear if the attack was dulled at all by the moat.  The only change I made was to swap focused the position of my Sigma ethernet between A side and B side.  The Sigma ethernet leads to my Zenith streamer.

 

This was an easy one.  The moat is worth every penny.  It improved clarity, increased separation between instruments and just sounded more musically coherent and tonally correct.  This was very much a case of stripping away a veil - there just seemed to me a slight haze between the musicians and me without the moat.  I heard no blunting of leading edges through the most.  The saxophone actually sounded more convincing through the moat.

 

The improvements I heard absolutely justified the ER’s asking price - but of course YMMV.  By all accounts the Extreme is able to produce dynamics that my system couldn’t even dream of - so I don’t doubt Emile or Roy when they say the moat slowed things down, though I heard no evidence of this in my far more humble system.

 

I don’t really see any benefit in comparing the OM to the ER (as an FMC) in my system, but I will be shipping my OM off to an Extreme owner so that he can assess this for himself.

[matthias]

37 minutes ago, kennyb123 said:

I don’t really see any benefit in comparing the OM to the ER (as an FMC) in my system, but I will be shipping my OM off to an Extreme owner so that he can assess this for himself.

 

Thanks for sharing.

 

IMO, the most fair comparison between ER as FMC and OM should include:

 

1.) Using the ER as FMC only not as switch (one copper input only).

2.) Using the A-side only of ER.

3.) Using for ER and OM the same HQ PS.

4.) The downstream component must have fiber input like OR or Taiko Extreme.

 

AFAIK from his posts on WBF even @romaz has not yet done this comparison.

 

Thanks

 

Matt

 

 

[guiltyboxswapper]

2 hours ago, kennyb123 said:

The improvements I heard absolutely justified the ER’s asking price - but of course YMMV.  By all accounts the Extreme is able to produce dynamics that my system couldn’t even dream of - so I don’t doubt Emile or Roy when they say the moat slowed things down, though I heard no evidence of this in my far more humble system.

 

TBH I was quite surprised to find I preferred without moat on my main system, without resorting to an extreme.  Ryzen 3900x w/industrial ram running HQP Server on one end, NAA oR on other.   

 

It reminded me of switching an Ethernet port between 100mb and 1gig - sure, less haze as you mention, but you do lose some transient definition in voices & natural instruments especially (which translates into less presence).