A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

austinpop · November 19, 2018

3 hours ago, bibo01 said:

@austinpop

Just to let you know that on the same Italian site - NextHardware - where you find a thread for AudioLinux (which by the way I was the first to review years ago), there is another thread for C-3PO. Its developer and many others users are always there to help in troubleshooting/setting up.

Another thread it might be of interest to your "research" is the one for GentooPlayer (similar to AL), an in-house free OS which is compiled for your particular hardware system. There are various images available with/out GUI.

Thanks, but I don’t even want C-3PO. Just basic squeezelite and LMS.

I’ve tabled the project for now.

greenleo · November 19, 2018

14 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Exactly. I was trying to describe the improvement due to AL in a practical context.

My bad. Eng is not my mother tongue.

bibo01 · November 19, 2018

17 minutes ago, austinpop said:

Thanks, but I don’t even want C-3PO. Just basic squeezelite and LMS.

I’ve tabled the project for now.

As you like, I am sure that we/they would be able to help you pretty well.

They know LMS+Squeezelite inside out!

Anyhow, Squeezelite+C-3PO plugin is a modified version of Sqeezelite and it's called Sqeezelite-R2. Btw, the whole system is better with, than without.

This link could be pretty useful (easy to translate with Chrome browser):

https://www.nexthardware.com/forum/pc-top-software/86945-guida-logitech-media-server-squeezelite-e-derivati.html

austinpop · November 19, 2018

47 minutes ago, greenleo said:

My bad. Eng is not my mother tongue.

No worries, I hope it makes sense now?

austinpop · November 19, 2018

41 minutes ago, bibo01 said:

As you like, I am sure that we/they would be able to help you pretty well.

They know LMS+Squeezelite inside out!

Anyhow, Squeezelite+C-3PO plugin is a modified version of Sqeezelite and it's called Sqeezelite-R2. Btw, the whole system is better with, than without.

This link could be pretty useful (easy to translate with Chrome browser):

https://www.nexthardware.com/forum/pc-top-software/86945-guida-logitech-media-server-squeezelite-e-derivati.html

I appreciate the offer. But I was really hoping for it to just work, like Roon did. Following these basic steps (from the guide):

yaourt -S logitechmediaserver-git squeezelite-r2-git (a bunch of y/n prompts)
squeezelite -l to list devices. Pick the right one. I picked the one in red below. Is that correct?
Edit the /etc/conf.d/squeezelite file and change the single line to: parameters="-o default:CARD=Interface"
After this:
- systemctl start logitechmediaserver-git.service
- systemctl start squeezelite@audiolinux
At this point, it should just be configuration by hitting LMS on port 9000 with a browser.
If this doesn't work - it didn't - you're in a world of debugging pain. That's where I am.

[audiolinux@audiolinux ~]$ squeezelite -l
Output devices:
null - Discard all samples (playback) or generate zero samples (capture)
default:CARD=Audio - Intel HDMI/DP LPE Audio, Intel HDMI/DP LPE Audio - Default Audio Device
sysdefault:CARD=Audio - Intel HDMI/DP LPE Audio, Intel HDMI/DP LPE Audio - Default Audio Device
hdmi:CARD=Audio,DEV=0 - Intel HDMI/DP LPE Audio, Intel HDMI/DP LPE Audio - HDMI Audio Output
hdmi:CARD=Audio,DEV=1 - Intel HDMI/DP LPE Audio, Intel HDMI/DP LPE Audio - HDMI Audio Output
default:CARD=Interface - Ayre USB Interface, USB Audio - Default Audio Device
sysdefault:CARD=Interface - Ayre USB Interface, USB Audio - Default Audio Device
front:CARD=Interface,DEV=0 - Ayre USB Interface, USB Audio - Front speakers
surround21:CARD=Interface,DEV=0 - Ayre USB Interface, USB Audio - 2.1 Surround output to Front and Subwoofer speakers
surround40:CARD=Interface,DEV=0 - Ayre USB Interface, USB Audio - 4.0 Surround output to Front and Rear speakers
surround41:CARD=Interface,DEV=0 - Ayre USB Interface, USB Audio - 4.1 Surround output to Front, Rear and Subwoofer speakers
surround50:CARD=Interface,DEV=0 - Ayre USB Interface, USB Audio - 5.0 Surround output to Front, Center and Rear speakers
surround51:CARD=Interface,DEV=0 - Ayre USB Interface, USB Audio - 5.1 Surround output to Front, Center, Rear and Subwoofer speakers
surround71:CARD=Interface,DEV=0 - Ayre USB Interface, USB Audio - 7.1 Surround output to Front, Center, Side, Rear and Woofer speakers
iec958:CARD=Interface,DEV=0 - Ayre USB Interface, USB Audio - IEC958 (S/PDIF) Digital Audio Output

bibo01 · November 19, 2018

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

I appreciate the offer. But I was really hoping for it to just work, like Roon did. Following these basic steps (from the guide):

yaourt -S logitechmediaserver-git squeezelite-r2-git (a bunch of y/n prompts)

squeezelite -l to list devices. Pick the right one. I picked the one in red below. Is that correct?

Edit the /etc/conf.d/squeezelite file and change the single line to: parameters="-o default:CARD=Interface"

After this:

systemctl start logitechmediaserver-git.service

systemctl start squeezelite@audiolinux

At this point, it should just be configuration by hitting LMS on port 9000 with a browser.

If this doesn't work - it didn't - you're in a world of debugging pain. That's where I am.

[audiolinux@audiolinux ~]$ squeezelite -l
Output devices:
null - Discard all samples (playback) or generate zero samples (capture)
default:CARD=Audio - Intel HDMI/DP LPE Audio, Intel HDMI/DP LPE Audio - Default Audio Device
sysdefault:CARD=Audio - Intel HDMI/DP LPE Audio, Intel HDMI/DP LPE Audio - Default Audio Device
hdmi:CARD=Audio,DEV=0 - Intel HDMI/DP LPE Audio, Intel HDMI/DP LPE Audio - HDMI Audio Output
hdmi:CARD=Audio,DEV=1 - Intel HDMI/DP LPE Audio, Intel HDMI/DP LPE Audio - HDMI Audio Output
default:CARD=Interface - Ayre USB Interface, USB Audio - Default Audio Device
sysdefault:CARD=Interface - Ayre USB Interface, USB Audio - Default Audio Device
front:CARD=Interface,DEV=0 - Ayre USB Interface, USB Audio - Front speakers
surround21:CARD=Interface,DEV=0 - Ayre USB Interface, USB Audio - 2.1 Surround output to Front and Subwoofer speakers
surround40:CARD=Interface,DEV=0 - Ayre USB Interface, USB Audio - 4.0 Surround output to Front and Rear speakers
surround41:CARD=Interface,DEV=0 - Ayre USB Interface, USB Audio - 4.1 Surround output to Front, Rear and Subwoofer speakers
surround50:CARD=Interface,DEV=0 - Ayre USB Interface, USB Audio - 5.0 Surround output to Front, Center and Rear speakers
surround51:CARD=Interface,DEV=0 - Ayre USB Interface, USB Audio - 5.1 Surround output to Front, Center, Rear and Subwoofer speakers
surround71:CARD=Interface,DEV=0 - Ayre USB Interface, USB Audio - 7.1 Surround output to Front, Center, Side, Rear and Woofer speakers
iec958:CARD=Interface,DEV=0 - Ayre USB Interface, USB Audio - IEC958 (S/PDIF) Digital Audio Output

We can continue in PVT, if you like.

Please type in Terminal

systemctl stop squeezelite@audiolinux

then

codice:

squeezelite -o default:CARD=Interface -d all=debug

otherwise (if it does not work)

codice:

squeezelite@audiolinux -o default:CARD=Interface -d all=debug

greenleo · November 19, 2018

2 hours ago, austinpop said:

No worries, I hope it makes sense now?

Yeap. ?

Marcin_gps · November 19, 2018

On 11/14/2018 at 8:29 PM, RickyV said:

Is there a website? @lmitche

Other questions i have are:

Is it possible in AudioLinux to configure a m.2 slot to accept a jcat usb Femto card?

@Marcin_gps

Is a NUC best in a two pc set up or can it be one nuc, without ssd, only music from tidal or a nas?

For now I prefer a one nuc setup what media player s.w is there to choose from?

Thanks

Rick ?

It shouldn't need any special configuration, it should work out of box with an m.2 -> PCIe riser cable

Regards,

Marcin

hifi25nl · November 19, 2018

Hello, I am the developer of Audiolinux.
I would like to thank everyone for the nice words about the work I have done.
I have not posted in this thread yet, but I am following the discussion and some upgrades (as the configuration menu in headless mode) are the result of your remarks and suggestions.

I don't have much time now to answer to all posts, I am maintaining 8 versions of Audiolinux... and answering quickly to many emails...
I understand that the site must be improved, but at least there is everything you need in one page. When I have time I will work on it.

Is the installation of Audiolinux difficult?

* In Linux you must type one command line
gunzip -c audiolinux_220.img.gz | dd of=/dev/sda (if your hd address is /dev/sda)

* In Windows you can use
Etcher
https://www.balena.io/etcher/
(or also Rufus, possibly version 2.18)

* In Mac the installation is similar to linux one, there is a special page here:
http://www.audio-linux.com/html/mac.html

Until now I have 100% successfull installation.

That is, this is only disk cloning... Why not an installation application? Because this way you have all ready, installed and already configured.

There is also a user guide made by a user here: http://www.audio-linux.com/html/user_guide1.html
(if you want to contribute send me your guide!)

It is difficult to configure it? Let’s take a look at the headless version. This is the very simple menu:

In the lxqt version you have some nice shortcuts inside “Start here” folder. One or 2 clicks and you are up and running:

RickyV · November 19, 2018

27 minutes ago, Marcin_gps said:

It shouldn't need any special configuration, it should work out of box with an m.2 -> PCIe riser cable

Regards,

Marcin

Thanks Marcin. If/when I go NUClear/audiolinux I will certainly try with and without jcat

RickyV · November 19, 2018

43 minutes ago, hifi25nl said:

Hello, I am the developer of Audiolinux.
I would like to thank everyone for the nice words about the work I have done.
I have not posted in this thread yet, but I am following the discussion and some upgrades (as the configuration menu in headless mode) are the result of your remarks and suggestions.

I don't have much time now to answer to all posts, I am maintaining 8 versions of Audiolinux... and answering quickly to many emails...
I understand that the site must be improved, but at least there is everything you need in one page. When I have time I will work on it.

Is the installation of Audiolinux difficult?

* In Linux you must type one command line
gunzip -c audiolinux_220.img.gz | dd of=/dev/sda (if your hd address is /dev/sda)

* In Windows you can use
Etcher
https://www.balena.io/etcher/
(or also Rufus, possibly version 2.18)

* In Mac the installation is similar to linux one, there is a special page here:
http://www.audio-linux.com/html/mac.html

Until now I have 100% successfull installation.

That is, this is only disk cloning... Why not an installation application? Because this way you have all ready, installed and already configured.

There is also a user guide made by a user here: http://www.audio-linux.com/html/user_guide1.html
(if you want to contribute send me your guide!)

It is difficult to configure it? Let’s take a look at the headless version. This is the very simple menu:

In the lxqt version you have some nice shortcuts inside “Start here” folder. One or 2 clicks and you are up and running:

Hi @hifi25nl, I have a question that's burning in my head. Is there something special in the way AL outputs through USB? In other words why does window USB needs to be isolated because of noise and AL usb is perfect straight from the motherboard.

It seems that all our USB gadgets reclockers we needed for windows are now collapsing the soundstage in AL.

Thanks

Rick ?

hifi25nl · November 19, 2018

Drivers in linux are different and alsa is very direct. Audiolinux is not using alsa mixer.

Narcissus · November 19, 2018

@Marcin_gps good to read your valuable posts. I remember way back in 2013 at the Jplay forums you were one of the first ones to advise using a dual PC setup.

Marcin_gps · November 19, 2018

4 minutes ago, Narcissus said:

@Marcin_gps good to read your valuable posts. I remember way back in 2013 at the Jplay forums you were one of the first ones to advise using a dual PC setup.

Thanks. Now with JPLAY FEMTO, single PC sounds better than dual PC setup back there.

Regards,

Marcin

seeteeyou · November 19, 2018

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No deals for June Canyon and Dawson Canyon yet. Keep track of the changes by copying and pasting that link here

https://visualping.io

https://www.followthatpage.com

Solid-State · November 19, 2018

2 hours ago, RickyV said:

Thanks Marcin. If/when I go NUClear/audiolinux I will certainly try with and without jcat

there's nothing special about Jcat NIC driver,
It a standard Intel T350 NIC from start,
So it works flawless in AudioLinux

Johnseye · November 19, 2018

On 11/17/2018 at 10:56 PM, mozes said:

First once I have some time, I want to try AL on my sCLK-EX server and see if it improves upon W10+AO+Fidelizer

I believe you and I have similar systems. I was running Server 2016 with AO. I stopped using Fidelizer, but had for a while.

I spent A LOT of time listening and comparing over the weekend. There is no question it makes an improvement, but in a single server setup the improvement was micro compared to the NUC running AL which was macro.

On 11/18/2018 at 8:16 AM, mourip said:

Last night I used my desktop Gigabyte i7 PC to test my ability to successfully install AL. I set it up as headless for Roon bridge and used USB out to my Mutec 3+ USB and then on to my Schiit Yggdrasil DAC and LTA MicroZOTL headphone amp. This is a recently built standard desktop PC with multiple internal drives, wireless keyboard/mouse, and a big SMPS power supply. It normally runs Windows 10 Pro and is used for browsing, email and photo work. I do listen to music via headphones and it sounds good but it is not "audiophile tweaked to the horizon" like my speaker system.

It worked great and produced a remarkably clear sound. Rate switching was flawless. There were really only two choices to make and they were made by a simple click on an old school non-GUI DOS-like menu. Next I will try it on my main system which also uses Mutec but is much more optimized and has a fan-less Streamcom/ASRock PC. My Roon Core runs on ROCK on a separate HDPlex/ASRock fanless PC with music on a second internal SSD. Roon runs solidly on this non-NUC "unsupported" PC.

I have a few current questions:

Since it will be headless I assume that once I insert the USB stick with the primary boot set to UEFI/USB and then turn on the PC AL will simply boot up to Roon?

Is it OK to just power the PC off or do I really need to use a remote shutdown command?

Since I am booting from USB and loading the OS into RAM is there any point to even have an SSD inside my PC?

Is it best to remove the USB stick once everything is running?

It seems that all of my anxiety was unwarranted. I want to thank everyone for sharing your experiences of AL here.

Best,

Paul

Not sure if you got answers so I'll try to help.

1. The USB stick will boot set to UEFI/USB if set that way in the BIOS. You will need to enable Roon with "alconf"

2. Not 100% but I believe pressing the button initiates shutdown

3. No, you don't even need to have the SSD inside. Remove it and the cabling.

4. Yes, remove it. It can still generate some noise when plugged in. I also disable all USB ports in the BIOS that I'm not using. In fact I disable everything in the BIOS I'm not using.

Johnseye · November 19, 2018

Audiolinux NUC Mini Update #2

I spent a lot of time listening over the weekend. I wish there was something similar to coffee beans used in wine tasting for the ears. After a while you just need to step away, especially when listening to micro changes. Subtleties sometimes need a fresh ear.

I recently built myself a new Windows video rendering/gaming PC based on an i7-8700k processor on an ASUS Z390 board using Optane and an Nvidia 1080Ti card. The PSU is a Corsair smps, nothing special about it. First thing to note was that this PC still couldn't handle upsampling with some non -2 HQPlayer filters, even using CUDA. That was disappointing. Maybe if I overclock it. There isn't much difference between the processors of this machine and my AL music server, an i7-7700k. The i7-8700k is one of the fastest procs out there right now and rivals or bests the latest 8th gen procs in benchmarks. As I've mentioned my AL music server is very capable. The key differences are Windows 10, Optane, CUDA, amount of RAM and power supply. The Windows box is also in my office where the NAS is in my listening room on the same switch as the 7700k AL server. It has to go through two routers and that switch to get to the NAA. Keep in mind, this is running Roon Core and HQPlayer for upsampling. It's not the HQPlayer NAA. This may be confusing and I should probably have a diagram but it's not worth the time. The results are what matters.

There is a difference between the two servers. I spent a lot of time back and forth with the tX-USBultra and both servers. What "I think" I've determined is that power and/or clocking does make a difference upstream. If you recall I preferred the SQ without the tX-USBultra in line. When using the Windows box as the Roon Core I thought the tX-USBultra smoothed some edginess I was hearing from that box. For a truly accurate test I'd have to move that server to the same switch as the one running AL because the two routers and distance may have some kind of an impact. The i7-7700k AL server is currently being powered by an smps but the sCLK-EX clocking the system and NICs is the sPS-500. I still think this server sounds better without the tX-USBultra.

My conclusion so far, and I still have more changes and testing to come, is that power and clocking upstream to the NAA have an impact. However, running Audiolinux in RAM on the NUC had the biggest impact to SQ by far. These other differences I'm comparing are subtle by comparison and require a lot of back and forth, listening for nuances in the track. I'm asking myself, do I hear a little more high end which could be considered sibilance or noise? Is the background blacker to where I hear some cymbal taps clearer which I couldn't hear in another scenario. Audiolinux in RAM on the NUC blows up the soundstage, surrounding you, makes the music fat, instruments more spatial and more defined. We know power makes a difference and I'm guessing if this NUC were clocked by the sCLK it would make a difference as well.

Marcin_gps · November 19, 2018

1 hour ago, TubeMan said:

there's nothing special about Jcat NIC driver,
It a standard Intel T350 NIC from start,
So it works flawless in AudioLinux

Correct.

btw - It works plug&play in QNAP NAS models that have a PCIe slot too

RickyV · November 19, 2018

1 hour ago, TubeMan said:

there's nothing special about Jcat NIC driver,
It a standard Intel T350 NIC from start,
So it works flawless in AudioLinux

Marcin was responding to a older question I had, someone already answered it.

And it’s for a usb Femto I am happily using.

mozes · November 19, 2018

1 hour ago, Johnseye said:

believe you and I have similar systems. I was running Server 2016 with AO. I stopped using Fidelizer, but had for a while.

I spent A LOT of time listening and comparing over the weekend. There is no question it makes an improvement, but in a single server setup the improvement was micro compared to the NUC running AL which was macro.

You know I have my custom Nimitra server collecting dust, so I may bring it to life as a server to feed my sCLK-EX PC which will be an end point in this configuration.

I use Jriver and not sure if this will work and how to set it up. I hate networking issues

Cortes · November 19, 2018

Here goes a "CA Linux" that I tried this morning for anyone interested:

1. Undusted an old Thinkpad T400s (any laptop is fine). Newer ones are better because the fan

does not run if the CPU is not charged.

2. Installed the distro LXLE (www.lxle.net). Any other is fine, I used it because is lighter than lubuntu and because I'm used to debian distros.

3. I installed the distro from an USB stick to another drive. You can do from an USB stick to another stick, or USB hard drive.

4. After installation, I upgraded:

$sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get upgrade && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade && sudo apt-get -y autoclean && sudo apt-get autoremove

and later installed foobar2000:

$sudo snap install foobar2000

later:

$foobar2000

and say yes to all the install the wine. With this at least you can verify your DAC is being recocnized and working.

5. Reboot

6. Now, the whole point of "CA linux", sorry audio-linux haha, passing the OS to the RAM:

$sudo vi /etc/default/grub

and replace the line:

GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="quiet splash"

by:

GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="toram"

finally:

$sudo update-grub

and reboot.

7. Now, with all the OS in ram, the laptop will be superfast. Now all is about customization, installing hqplayer, jriver, roon, whatever.

auricgoldfinger · November 19, 2018

3 hours ago, Johnseye said:

Audiolinux NUC Mini Update #2

I spent a lot of time listening over the weekend. I wish there was something similar to coffee beans used in wine tasting for the ears. After a while you just need to step away, especially when listening to micro changes. Subtleties sometimes need a fresh ear.

I recently built myself a new Windows video rendering/gaming PC based on an i7-8700k processor on an ASUS Z390 board using Optane and an Nvidia 1080Ti card. The PSU is a Corsair smps, nothing special about it. First thing to note was that this PC still couldn't handle upsampling with some non -2 HQPlayer filters, even using CUDA. That was disappointing. Maybe if I overclock it. There isn't much difference between the processors of this machine and my AL music server, an i7-7700k. The i7-8700k is one of the fastest procs out there right now and rivals or bests the latest 8th gen procs in benchmarks. As I've mentioned my AL music server is very capable. The key differences are Windows 10, Optane, CUDA, amount of RAM and power supply. The Windows box is also in my office where the NAS is in my listening room on the same switch as the 7700k AL server. It has to go through two routers and that switch to get to the NAA. Keep in mind, this is running Roon Core and HQPlayer for upsampling. It's not the HQPlayer NAA. This may be confusing and I should probably have a diagram but it's not worth the time. The results are what matters.

There is a difference between the two servers. I spent a lot of time back and forth with the tX-USBultra and both servers. What "I think" I've determined is that power and/or clocking does make a difference upstream. If you recall I preferred the SQ without the tX-USBultra in line. When using the Windows box as the Roon Core I thought the tX-USBultra smoothed some edginess I was hearing from that box. For a truly accurate test I'd have to move that server to the same switch as the one running AL because the two routers and distance may have some kind of an impact. The i7-7700k AL server is currently being powered by an smps but the sCLK-EX clocking the system and NICs is the sPS-500. I still think this server sounds better without the tX-USBultra.

My conclusion so far, and I still have more changes and testing to come, is that power and clocking upstream to the NAA have an impact. However, running Audiolinux in RAM on the NUC had the biggest impact to SQ by far. These other differences I'm comparing are subtle by comparison and require a lot of back and forth, listening for nuances in the track. I'm asking myself, do I hear a little more high end which could be considered sibilance or noise? Is the background blacker to where I hear some cymbal taps clearer which I couldn't hear in another scenario. Audiolinux in RAM on the NUC blows up the soundstage, surrounding you, makes the music fat, instruments more spatial and more defined. We know power makes a difference and I'm guessing if this NUC were clocked by the sCLK it would make a difference as well.

This may be a very dumb question, but could the sCLK potentially introduce noise into the NUC that would offset any benefits realized from AL?

Johnseye · November 19, 2018

1 hour ago, auricgoldfinger said:

This may be a very dumb question, but could the sCLK potentially introduce noise into the NUC that would offset any benefits realized from AL?

No, I think it's the other way. I think the non sCLK PC with dirtier power, while it has more horsepower, inputs noise into the stream. The tX-USBultra helped clean up the noise, where the sCLK PC with better power didn't benefit from the tX-USBultra and which was actually penalized by it.

My take away from this weekend's listening session was that upstream noise still has an impact. Noticeable enough to where the use or elimination of a tX-USBultra was the result.

lmitche · November 19, 2018

30 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

No, I think it's the other way. I think the non sCLK PC with dirtier power, while it has more horsepower, inputs noise into the stream. The tX-USBultra helped clean up the noise, where the sCLK PC with better power didn't benefit from the tX-USBultra and which was actually penalized by it.

My take away from this weekend's listening session was that upstream noise still has an impact. Noticeable enough to where the use or elimination of a tX-USBultra was the result.

John,

Do you have any network isolation between the server and streamer? How about between the cable modem and server? How about any bridged nics? I would suggest you have to try both machines from the same position on the network to have a valid comparison without isolation.

Over here the CA best practices on the server matter as well despite the only copper connection being the AC line buried under two layers of isolation transformers on both sides.

Soon I'll be testing an i7 quad core NUC as streamer and server, and am curious to learn about the SQ impact on either side.

Just for grins, also working on building a y-cable to serially power the streaming NUC at 19 volts from two lps1.2s.

Larry

A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

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