A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

ElviaCaprice · November 20, 2018

I think you guys are getting too hung up on NUC's as if they have some magical qualities. If it's just audio as an endpoint using the mobo USB, LAN, AL headless with 4GB memory, then I would go even smaller mobo.

Like a Pico-ITX, http://www.jetwaycomputer.com/JBC400P591.html

In fact, I've got one sitting around, have to give it a go as an endpoint at the summer home.

lmitche · November 20, 2018

1 hour ago, taipan254 said:

A random and very innocent follow up question... Would the same be true with a JS-2?

No, I dont believe the js-2 delivers galvanic isolation like the lps1.2, but Alex will know best.

auricgoldfinger · November 20, 2018

This post is intended primarily for the benefit of those who own a streamer made by one of the popular manufacturers and who may be wondering how the AL NUC streamer compares to those products.

Recently, I sent my sMS-200ultra to a dealer for the Neo upgrade. The dealer also replaced the two SOtM-upgraded stranded silver internal DC cables with a pair of 20 AWG solid core Neotech silver cables that received the JSSG 360 treatment. The first photo shows the 2-layer shielding using the JSSG360 approach. The second photo shows the upgraded SOtM and custom dealer DC cables side-by-side.

The Neo upgrade is a subtle, yet welcome, change that eliminates the slightly bright SOtM “house sound.” However, the real star is the new DC cables. The sound is much more open, and the background seems completely silent. Highlights include richer and more textured vocals and a sharper image, with the placement of instruments being much more precise.

While the sMS was away, my worst obsessive-compulsive tendencies overcame me amidst all the discussion of using an AL NUC as a Roon endpoint. On a lark, I contacted @lmitche to ask if he would build one for me. I expected him to politely decline, but to my surprise, he was quite enthusiastic about the idea. I laid out my requirements, and he asked questions to familiarize himself with my setup. With that information at hand, he suggested options, and we reached an agreement on price. The NUC was in my hands a few days after I sent the funds. Larry is very professional, and a great guy, to boot.

Given the elevated performance of the modified sMS, I was a little apprehensive about the NUC. Keep in mind that the sMS has been given every conceivable upgrade, including the internal JSSG cables, internal EMI absorber, and re-clocking by a Reference 1 double regulated PSU powered OCX10 via Habst Digital BNC cables. Despite all of these upgrades, the NUC easily beats the sMS in terms of detail and dynamics. In fact, it is really not much of a contest.

For perspective, my chain in its simplest form can be described as follows:

FMC > switch > streamer (sMS/NUC) > tX-USBultra > DAVE > HE1000 v2

The OCX10 re-clocks the sMS and tX, which in turn re-clock the switch and both FMCs. (The FMCs and switch were modified by SOtM.) The OCX10 and tX are each powered by a Reference 1, the streamer and switch are each powered by an LPS-1.2, and the downstream FMC is powered by a JS-2 rail. I utilize a Synergistic Research ground block and HD cables to ground various components and cables, as well as a Gutwire HD cable to ground the DAVE.

For my listening comparison, I simply substituted the NUC for the sMS, keeping the LPS-1.2 as the power supply for both.

sig8 · November 20, 2018

20 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

I think you guys are getting too hung up on NUC's as if they have some magical qualities. If it's just audio as an endpoint using the mobo USB, LAN, AL headless with 4GB memory, then I would go even smaller mobo.

Like a Pico-ITX, http://www.jetwaycomputer.com/JBC400P591.html

In fact, I've got one sitting around, have to give it a go as an endpoint at the summer home.

+1. As you said, don't know what is special about NUS's? I tried three different MoBo's and did not find anything special about NUC's. Try AL on what you have.

lmitche · November 20, 2018

8 minutes ago, auricgoldfinger said:

This post is intended primarily for the benefit of those who own a streamer made by one of the popular manufacturers and who may be wondering how the AL NUC streamer compares to those products.

Recently, I sent my sMS-200ultra to a dealer for the Neo upgrade. The dealer also replaced the two SOtM-upgraded stranded silver internal DC cables with a pair of 20 AWG solid core Neotech silver cables that received the JSSG 360 treatment. The first photo shows the 2-layer shielding using the JSSG360 approach. The second photo shows the upgraded SOtM and custom dealer DC cables side-by-side.

The Neo upgrade is a subtle, yet welcome, change that eliminates the slightly bright SOtM “house sound.” However, the real star is the new DC cables. The sound is much more open, and the background seems completely silent. Highlights include richer and more textured vocals and a sharper image, with the placement of instruments being much more precise.

While the sMS was away, my worst obsessive-compulsive tendencies overcame me amidst all the discussion of using an AL NUC as a Roon endpoint. On a lark, I contacted @lmitche to ask if he would build one for me. I expected him to politely decline, but to my surprise, he was quite enthusiastic about the idea. I laid out my requirements, and he asked questions to familiarize himself with my setup. With that information at hand, he suggested options, and we reached an agreement on price. The NUC was in my hands a few days after I sent the funds. Larry is very professional, and a great guy, to boot.

Given the elevated performance of the modified sMS, I was a little apprehensive about the NUC. Keep in mind that the sMS has been given every conceivable upgrade, including the internal JSSG cables, internal EMI absorber, and re-clocking by a Reference 1 double regulated PSU powered OCX10 via Habst Digital BNC cables. Despite all of these upgrades, the NUC easily beats the sMS in terms of detail and dynamics. In fact, it is really not much of a contest.

For perspective, my chain in its simplest form can be described as follows:

FMC > switch > streamer (sMS/NUC) > tX-USBultra > DAVE > HE1000 v2

The OCX10 re-clocks the sMS and tX, which in turn re-clock the switch and both FMCs. (The FMCs and switch were modified by SOtM.) The OCX10 and tX are each powered by a Reference 1, the streamer and switch are each powered by an LPS-1.2, and the downstream FMC is powered by a JS-2 rail. I utilize a Synergistic Research ground block and HD cables to ground various components and cables, as well as a Gutwire HD cable to ground the DAVE.

For my listening comparison, I simply substituted the NUC for the sMS, keeping the LPS-1.2 as the power supply for both.

Hi AGF,

Many thanks for being the first customer of NUCkleheadAudio. I would not have done this without your urging. Many thanks for your review and kind words. I am delighted that you are pleased with the outcome.

Larry

Confused · November 20, 2018

38 minutes ago, auricgoldfinger said:

This post is intended primarily for the benefit of those who own a streamer made by one of the popular manufacturers and who may be wondering how the AL NUC streamer compares to those products.

Recently, I sent my sMS-200ultra to a dealer for the Neo upgrade. The dealer also replaced the two SOtM-upgraded stranded silver internal DC cables with a pair of 20 AWG solid core Neotech silver cables that received the JSSG 360 treatment. The first photo shows the 2-layer shielding using the JSSG360 approach. The second photo shows the upgraded SOtM and custom dealer DC cables side-by-side.

The Neo upgrade is a subtle, yet welcome, change that eliminates the slightly bright SOtM “house sound.” However, the real star is the new DC cables. The sound is much more open, and the background seems completely silent. Highlights include richer and more textured vocals and a sharper image, with the placement of instruments being much more precise.

While the sMS was away, my worst obsessive-compulsive tendencies overcame me amidst all the discussion of using an AL NUC as a Roon endpoint. On a lark, I contacted @lmitche to ask if he would build one for me. I expected him to politely decline, but to my surprise, he was quite enthusiastic about the idea. I laid out my requirements, and he asked questions to familiarize himself with my setup. With that information at hand, he suggested options, and we reached an agreement on price. The NUC was in my hands a few days after I sent the funds. Larry is very professional, and a great guy, to boot.

Given the elevated performance of the modified sMS, I was a little apprehensive about the NUC. Keep in mind that the sMS has been given every conceivable upgrade, including the internal JSSG cables, internal EMI absorber, and re-clocking by a Reference 1 double regulated PSU powered OCX10 via Habst Digital BNC cables. Despite all of these upgrades, the NUC easily beats the sMS in terms of detail and dynamics. In fact, it is really not much of a contest.

For perspective, my chain in its simplest form can be described as follows:

FMC > switch > streamer (sMS/NUC) > tX-USBultra > DAVE > HE1000 v2

The OCX10 re-clocks the sMS and tX, which in turn re-clock the switch and both FMCs. (The FMCs and switch were modified by SOtM.) The OCX10 and tX are each powered by a Reference 1, the streamer and switch are each powered by an LPS-1.2, and the downstream FMC is powered by a JS-2 rail. I utilize a Synergistic Research ground block and HD cables to ground various components and cables, as well as a Gutwire HD cable to ground the DAVE.

For my listening comparison, I simply substituted the NUC for the sMS, keeping the LPS-1.2 as the power supply for both.

An interesting write up. I have the Neo, and to my ears it excels at details and dynamics, so it’s quite something to hear that the AL NUC is ahead in these areas. Quite remarkable.

It’s a shame it’s not possible to run AL on the Neo, that would be interesting!

RickyV · November 20, 2018

28 minutes ago, auricgoldfinger said:

This post is intended primarily for the benefit of those who own a streamer made by one of the popular manufacturers and who may be wondering how the AL NUC streamer compares to those products.

Recently, I sent my sMS-200ultra to a dealer for the Neo upgrade. The dealer also replaced the two SOtM-upgraded stranded silver internal DC cables with a pair of 20 AWG solid core Neotech silver cables that received the JSSG 360 treatment. The first photo shows the 2-layer shielding using the JSSG360 approach. The second photo shows the upgraded SOtM and custom dealer DC cables side-by-side.

The Neo upgrade is a subtle, yet welcome, change that eliminates the slightly bright SOtM “house sound.” However, the real star is the new DC cables. The sound is much more open, and the background seems completely silent. Highlights include richer and more textured vocals and a sharper image, with the placement of instruments being much more precise.

While the sMS was away, my worst obsessive-compulsive tendencies overcame me amidst all the discussion of using an AL NUC as a Roon endpoint. On a lark, I contacted @lmitche to ask if he would build one for me. I expected him to politely decline, but to my surprise, he was quite enthusiastic about the idea. I laid out my requirements, and he asked questions to familiarize himself with my setup. With that information at hand, he suggested options, and we reached an agreement on price. The NUC was in my hands a few days after I sent the funds. Larry is very professional, and a great guy, to boot.

Given the elevated performance of the modified sMS, I was a little apprehensive about the NUC. Keep in mind that the sMS has been given every conceivable upgrade, including the internal JSSG cables, internal EMI absorber, and re-clocking by a Reference 1 double regulated PSU powered OCX10 via Habst Digital BNC cables. Despite all of these upgrades, the NUC easily beats the sMS in terms of detail and dynamics. In fact, it is really not much of a contest.

For perspective, my chain in its simplest form can be described as follows:

FMC > switch > streamer (sMS/NUC) > tX-USBultra > DAVE > HE1000 v2

The OCX10 re-clocks the sMS and tX, which in turn re-clock the switch and both FMCs. (The FMCs and switch were modified by SOtM.) The OCX10 and tX are each powered by a Reference 1, the streamer and switch are each powered by an LPS-1.2, and the downstream FMC is powered by a JS-2 rail. I utilize a Synergistic Research ground block and HD cables to ground various components and cables, as well as a Gutwire HD cable to ground the DAVE.

For my listening comparison, I simply substituted the NUC for the sMS, keeping the LPS-1.2 as the power supply for both.

Just flabbergasted a AL NUC against reclocked OCX10 sms200 ultra. AL must be very spatial. The NUC is just easily power with a small form factor pc.

Have you tried the nuc without the tx that’s an other hot question!?

Rick?

the_doc735 · November 20, 2018

43 minutes ago, sig8 said:

+1. As you said, don't know what is special about NUS's? I tried three different MoBo's and did not find anything special about NUC's. Try AL on what you have.

+2

LTG2010 · November 20, 2018

5 minutes ago, Confused said:

its a shame it’s not possible to run AL on the Neo, that would be interesting!

Hmmm..... well take out that little micro sd card, load AL onto another one, who knows what might happen?

seeteeyou · November 20, 2018

6 hours ago, lmitche said:

You lose galvanic isolation and potentially gain a ground loop with the the Mpaudio solution.

With the lps1.2 powering the NUC and with an lps1.2 powering an ISO Regen there can't be a ground loop even with a wired Ethernet connection.

Hi @[email protected],

Will your upcoming product be prone to such purported issues?

https://dxpwr.com

Quote

LT3045-3A5IO : 6xLT3045 Input/Output Board 1V-15V, 3.0A
(coming soon)

Johnseye · November 20, 2018

48 minutes ago, auricgoldfinger said:

This post is intended primarily for the benefit of those who own a streamer made by one of the popular manufacturers and who may be wondering how the AL NUC streamer compares to those products.

Recently, I sent my sMS-200ultra to a dealer for the Neo upgrade. The dealer also replaced the two SOtM-upgraded stranded silver internal DC cables with a pair of 20 AWG solid core Neotech silver cables that received the JSSG 360 treatment. The first photo shows the 2-layer shielding using the JSSG360 approach. The second photo shows the upgraded SOtM and custom dealer DC cables side-by-side.

The Neo upgrade is a subtle, yet welcome, change that eliminates the slightly bright SOtM “house sound.” However, the real star is the new DC cables. The sound is much more open, and the background seems completely silent. Highlights include richer and more textured vocals and a sharper image, with the placement of instruments being much more precise.

While the sMS was away, my worst obsessive-compulsive tendencies overcame me amidst all the discussion of using an AL NUC as a Roon endpoint. On a lark, I contacted @lmitche to ask if he would build one for me. I expected him to politely decline, but to my surprise, he was quite enthusiastic about the idea. I laid out my requirements, and he asked questions to familiarize himself with my setup. With that information at hand, he suggested options, and we reached an agreement on price. The NUC was in my hands a few days after I sent the funds. Larry is very professional, and a great guy, to boot.

Given the elevated performance of the modified sMS, I was a little apprehensive about the NUC. Keep in mind that the sMS has been given every conceivable upgrade, including the internal JSSG cables, internal EMI absorber, and re-clocking by a Reference 1 double regulated PSU powered OCX10 via Habst Digital BNC cables. Despite all of these upgrades, the NUC easily beats the sMS in terms of detail and dynamics. In fact, it is really not much of a contest.

For perspective, my chain in its simplest form can be described as follows:

FMC > switch > streamer (sMS/NUC) > tX-USBultra > DAVE > HE1000 v2

The OCX10 re-clocks the sMS and tX, which in turn re-clock the switch and both FMCs. (The FMCs and switch were modified by SOtM.) The OCX10 and tX are each powered by a Reference 1, the streamer and switch are each powered by an LPS-1.2, and the downstream FMC is powered by a JS-2 rail. I utilize a Synergistic Research ground block and HD cables to ground various components and cables, as well as a Gutwire HD cable to ground the DAVE.

For my listening comparison, I simply substituted the NUC for the sMS, keeping the LPS-1.2 as the power supply for both.

Great to hear of another validating what those of us experiencing with Audiolinux and the NUC.

Would love to hear your impressions of with and without the tX-USBultra in line.

Confused · November 20, 2018

13 minutes ago, LTG2010 said:

Hmmm..... well take out that little micro sd card, load AL onto another one, who knows what might happen?

Ha! Yes, who knows what might happen. Although I believe the sMS-200 has an ARM processor and 2GB RAM. So I suspect this is a dead end. ☹️

Cortes · November 20, 2018

1 hour ago, ElviaCaprice said:

I think you guys are getting too hung up on NUC's as if they have some magical qualities. If it's just audio as an endpoint using the mobo USB, LAN, AL headless with 4GB memory, then I would go even smaller mobo.

Like a Pico-ITX, http://www.jetwaycomputer.com/JBC400P591.html

In fact, I've got one sitting around, have to give it a go as an endpoint at the summer home.

+1

Indeed, any modern laptop with SSD, low consumption Intel CPU, and wireless disabled in bios ,is much more clean than a crappy NUC. I can't see how a modern laptop running any linux distro in the ram is not better than a NUC.

auricgoldfinger · November 20, 2018

27 minutes ago, Confused said:

An interesting write up. I have the Neo, and to my ears it excels at details and dynamics, so it’s quite something to hear that the AL NUC is ahead in these areas. Quite remarkable.

It’s a shame it’s not possible to run AL on the Neo, that would be interesting!

I agree!

Johnseye · November 20, 2018

1 hour ago, ElviaCaprice said:

I think you guys are getting too hung up on NUC's as if they have some magical qualities. If it's just audio as an endpoint using the mobo USB, LAN, AL headless with 4GB memory, then I would go even smaller mobo.

Like a Pico-ITX, http://www.jetwaycomputer.com/JBC400P591.html

In fact, I've got one sitting around, have to give it a go as an endpoint at the summer home.

5 minutes ago, Cortes said:

+1

Indeed, any modern laptop with SSD, low consumption Intel CPU, and wireless disabled in bios ,is much more clean than a crappy NUC. I can't see how a modern laptop running any linux distro in the ram is not better than a NUC.

Maybe

Seriously though you need to read through Roy's hypothesis again. In his opinion processor cache is a factor. That Jetway you linked has 2M cache. I think we're all guessing and trying to figure it out at this point, but one thing's for certain is that these NUC 7s sound great.

auricgoldfinger · November 20, 2018

25 minutes ago, RickyV said:

Just flabbergasted a AL NUC against reclocked OCX10 sms200 ultra. AL must be very spatial. The NUC is just easily power with a small form factor pc.

Have you tried the nuc without the tx that’s an other hot question!?

Rick?

15 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

Great to hear of another validating what those of us experiencing with Audiolinux and the NUC.

Would love to hear your impressions of with and without the tX-USBultra in line.

I do plan to listen with and without the tX. I'll let you know once it's done.

Cortes · November 20, 2018

26 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

Maybe

Seriously though you need to read through Roy's hypothesis again. In his opinion processor cache is a factor. That Jetway you linked has 2M cache. I think we're all guessing and trying to figure it out at this point, but one thing's for certain is that these NUC 7s sound great.

Cache?. My desktop is an AMD Threadripper with 32MB of cache, and running linux. Maybe is an audophile jewell and I had not realized. ;-). This looks a serious snake oil.

Johnseye · November 20, 2018

1 minute ago, Cortes said:

Cache?. My desktop is an AMD Threadripper with 32MB of cache, and running linux. Maybe is an audophile jewell and I had not realized. ;-). This looks a serious snake oil.

If you had a 32MB proc cache on a board the size of a NUC using 15w TDP maybe you could compare.

Snake oil that anyone who's actually heard it agrees from a device sold by Intel not specifically for audio? It's a discovery.

Bricki · November 20, 2018

35 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

Maybe

Seriously though you need to read through Roy's hypothesis again. In his opinion processor cache is a factor. That Jetway you linked has 2M cache. I think we're all guessing and trying to figure it out at this point, but one thing's for certain is that these NUC 7s sound great.

I think Roys conclusion was that it had more to do with core count than cache size. When he compared the i7 nuc with one core active (the smart cache allowing all 8MB to be used by one active core) it didn't sound as good as all cores active. I think he concluded that roon bridge was multi threaded and benefited from all cores active... ?☺️

austinpop · November 20, 2018

31 minutes ago, Cortes said:

Cache?. My desktop is an AMD Threadripper with 32MB of cache, and running linux. Maybe is an audophile jewell and I had not realized. ;-). This looks a serious snake oil.

Hola Cortes!

Please read the first post of this thread for the ground rules. If you tried something different and compared it to AL, we're all ears. But comments like "This looks a serious snake oil." are not welcome here, and I will be deleting any future posts along these lines.

This comes up a lot, so there is now a separate thread here: https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/54792-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/ where you can debate the why's and why not's of these things to your heart's content. Fellow skeptics are standing by!

Enjoy!

Bricki · November 21, 2018

2 hours ago, auricgoldfinger said:

This post is intended primarily for the benefit of those who own a streamer made by one of the popular manufacturers and who may be wondering how the AL NUC streamer compares to those products.

Recently, I sent my sMS-200ultra to a dealer for the Neo upgrade. The dealer also replaced the two SOtM-upgraded stranded silver internal DC cables with a pair of 20 AWG solid core Neotech silver cables that received the JSSG 360 treatment. The first photo shows the 2-layer shielding using the JSSG360 approach. The second photo shows the upgraded SOtM and custom dealer DC cables side-by-side.

The Neo upgrade is a subtle, yet welcome, change that eliminates the slightly bright SOtM “house sound.” However, the real star is the new DC cables. The sound is much more open, and the background seems completely silent. Highlights include richer and more textured vocals and a sharper image, with the placement of instruments being much more precise.

While the sMS was away, my worst obsessive-compulsive tendencies overcame me amidst all the discussion of using an AL NUC as a Roon endpoint. On a lark, I contacted @lmitche to ask if he would build one for me. I expected him to politely decline, but to my surprise, he was quite enthusiastic about the idea. I laid out my requirements, and he asked questions to familiarize himself with my setup. With that information at hand, he suggested options, and we reached an agreement on price. The NUC was in my hands a few days after I sent the funds. Larry is very professional, and a great guy, to boot.

Given the elevated performance of the modified sMS, I was a little apprehensive about the NUC. Keep in mind that the sMS has been given every conceivable upgrade, including the internal JSSG cables, internal EMI absorber, and re-clocking by a Reference 1 double regulated PSU powered OCX10 via Habst Digital BNC cables. Despite all of these upgrades, the NUC easily beats the sMS in terms of detail and dynamics. In fact, it is really not much of a contest.

For perspective, my chain in its simplest form can be described as follows:

FMC > switch > streamer (sMS/NUC) > tX-USBultra > DAVE > HE1000 v2

The OCX10 re-clocks the sMS and tX, which in turn re-clock the switch and both FMCs. (The FMCs and switch were modified by SOtM.) The OCX10 and tX are each powered by a Reference 1, the streamer and switch are each powered by an LPS-1.2, and the downstream FMC is powered by a JS-2 rail. I utilize a Synergistic Research ground block and HD cables to ground various components and cables, as well as a Gutwire HD cable to ground the DAVE.

For my listening comparison, I simply substituted the NUC for the sMS, keeping the LPS-1.2 as the power supply for both.

Thanks for sharing your impressions?...Is your nuc the nuc7cjyh in the akasa case?

Ralf11 · November 21, 2018

who has done listening comparisons at varying cache sizes ??

Johnseye · November 21, 2018

16 minutes ago, Bricki said:

I think Roys conclusion was that it had more to do with core count than cache size. When he compared the i7 nuc with one core active (the smart cache allowing all 8MB to be used by one active core) it didn't sound as good as all cores active. I think he concluded that roon bridge was multi threaded and benefited from all cores active... ?☺️

It has more to do with how much cache an active proc has access to.

Bricki · November 21, 2018

On 10/30/2018 at 1:26 PM, romaz said:

I then assessed the i7 NUC as a Roon endpoint. The first thing I did was to assess this NUC with "All Cores" turned on versus only "1 Core." With only a single core operational, this core now gets the entire 8MB of SmartCache to itself. Well, "All Cores" sounds better than "1 Core" and so it would seem that RoonBridge is a multithreaded app and that the ability to parallel process among multiple cores is more important than having a big cache.

John, you're right that certainly was his original theory. Later he did this comparison above that changes things a bit ☺️

Johnseye · November 21, 2018

2 minutes ago, Bricki said:

John, you're right that certainly was his original theory. Later he did this comparison above that changes things a bit ☺️

Good catch, I missed that. Cores over cache.

A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

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