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A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming


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Most important: please realize this thread is about bleeding edge experimentation and discovery. No one has The Answer™. If you are not into tweaking, just know that you can have a musically satisfying system without doing any of the nutty things we do here.

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1 hour ago, flkin said:

 

We all trying to push our systems higher, everyone have their own way. With my Pink Faun single box with a customised Audiolinux installation and internal clocks, I'm at the stage where my tX-USBultra and clock makes no difference anymore, actually makes the sound worse.

 

I'm finding that Roon with no upsampling now sounds better than HQP both with or without upsampling. And since both sounds different without upsampling, the signal is being processed by HQP in some way. I'm suggesting to handle the signal as little as possible.

What are the clocks that you're using?

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3 hours ago, austinpop said:

There are so many things that I don't understand

There's a world within in me that I cannot explain

Many rooms to explore but the doors look the same

I am lost I can't even remember my name...

 

:D

love it! :) 

Topaz 2.5Kva Isolation Transformer > EtherRegen switch powered by Paul Hynes SR4 LPS >MacBook Pro 2013 > EC Designs PowerDac SX > TNT UBYTE-2 Speaker cables > Omega Super Alnico Monitors > 2x Rel T Zero Subwoofers. 

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12 hours ago, Cornan said:

Is’nt this NUC thing all about isolation? You can use any fancy words that you like (latency or what ever) but in the end it is all about isolating the music source, core and streamer from each other and from the ac mains in any possible way. Same rules applies to Tidal (source router which needs to be isolated) as it does to local files (source harddrive/NAS which needs to be isolated). The more you can separate and isolate each part of the chain the better (also inbetween devices ofcourse). If you start looking at it in terms of isolation instead of all the other ”words” it is way easier to understand where you are heading IMO. Just my 2 c.

 

ps. Isolation is the least possible impact to the signal and power chain. 100% isolation is just fiction. ds. 

 

I think it’s about using devices that generates as little noise as possible to start with. The next thing to do is to isolate the noise that we can’t prevent from being produced. Sound very easy in theory, but is very hard in practise because in reality we have to deal with all the things that can have a negative effect on other devices in the audio system, but that is not well known/specified as being as source of noise in literature/theories.

 

In principle we can illustrate this by having one X-axel and one Y-axel, there all types of noise generated by a device (or a whole system) can be put on the X-axel and the all types of isolation can be summed on the Y-axel.

 

Even if I think that you are in some way correct in that “we” can use “fancy words” to explain some specific aspect, like the different types of noise there is. OTOH when we discuss real specific implications instead of general theories it’s often necessary to distinguish between different types and sources of noise, otherwise it’s next to impossible to understand and do something about them.

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5 hours ago, austinpop said:

Here's a quick listening experiment I just did that at least hints at the answer regarding AL vs. other "audio" Linux variants...

 

It occurred to me I had not actually A/B tested my SE running AL Extreme headless RoonServer - with and without RAM boot. So that's what I compared. I listened to 3 tracks, but the answer was evident in the first few notes. The RAM booted version sounds better. Much better. 

 

One of my test track's lyrics made me chuckle, as it seemed particularly apt for this round of exploration. It's the song Withn from Random Access Memories:

 

There are so many things that I don't understand

There's a world within in me that I cannot explain

Many rooms to explore but the doors look the same

I am lost I can't even remember my name...

 

:D

What kind of media held your boot disk in your non ramboot experiment above? The type of media and how it is attached to the CPU matters greatly.

Pareto Audio aka nuckleheadaudio

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1 hour ago, Summit said:

 

I think it’s about using devices that generates as little noise as possible to start with. The next thing to do is to isolate the noise that we can’t prevent from being produced. Sound very easy in theory, but is very hard in practise because in reality we have to deal with all the things that can have a negative effect on other devices in the audio system, but that is not well known/specified as being as source of noise in literature/theories.

 

In principle we can illustrate this by having one X-axel and one Y-axel, there all types of noise generated by a device (or a whole system) can be put on the X-axel and the all types of isolation can be summed on the Y-axel.

 

Even if I think that you are in some way correct in that “we” can use “fancy words” to explain some specific aspect, like the different types of noise there is. OTOH when we discuss real specific implications instead of general theories it’s often necessary to distinguish between different types and sources of noise, otherwise it’s next to impossible to understand and do something about them.

 

I do not disagree with you, but I personally think that it is actually much easier to view both reduction of noise generated by the device and external noise reductions in the same isolation terms. At the end of the day voltage regulations, caps or any other means of reducing internal noise is an isolation method. 

 

 

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What is the best way to get tidal playing on these NUC/ AL machines.

I listen almost exclusively to tidal.

 

?

Meitner ma1 v2 dac,  Sovereign preamp and power amp,

DIY speakers, scan speak illuminator.

Raal Requisite VM-1a -> SR-1a with Accurate Sound convolution.

Under development:

NUC7i7dnbe, Euphony Stylus, Qobuz.

Modded Buffalo-fiber-EtherRegen, DC3- Isoregen, Lush^2

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5 hours ago, flkin said:

I believe believe once you reach a certain level, touching the digital signal as little as possible is better than manipulating it for whatever the reason.

This is true, but the digital signal is manipulated quite a bit in mastering processes, engineers tweaking the recordings to their taste and equipment, some of those studio monitors very unbalanced. My Audeze LCD XC headphones just sound too bright in my setup so a little dsp in Roon helps balance this out.

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4 minutes ago, LTG2010 said:

This is true, but the digital signal is manipulated quite a bit in mastering processes, engineers tweaking the recordings to their taste and equipment, some of those studio monitors very unbalanced. My Audeze LCD XC headphones just sound too bright in my setup so a little dsp in Roon helps balance this out.

 

Its true the signal before arriving at the streamer has been massaged a lot for sure. My thinking is to arrange my system play whatever was the intent of the  mastering engineers. Might be different to what I prefer but it's true to the intent and that makes it interesting to hear and sometimes reflects the era of the recording too. I'm thinking this is achieved with a truly neutral system and then everything sounds good. But for sure a bit of DSP adjustment to correct issues in the rest of the system is probably the only solution before finding more permanent solutions.

 

One thing that is interesting to read is how we talk a lot about the front end sound but the streamer and DAC is only part of the entire system and there are so many more parts to optimise apart from the source. If we don't work on this at the same time we might be working on producing defects to compensate for other defects in the rest of the system. - and - to make a + sort of thing.

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2 hours ago, greenleo said:

I c.  Thought you used Ref 10 or cybershaft.

 

Yes I have used both with the external tX-USBultra to distribute the clock goodness in a spaghetti setup. This was before moving to a single box streamer with clocks built in. Initially during the burning in process the external clock still helped. But after the Pink Faun settled down, I found that the internal clocks had exceeded the sound of the external reference clocks didn’t need them anymore.

 

The discussion of using a NUC as a Roon end point has got me interested in using external clocks again. I wonder if Larry can assembe a AL unit that accepts an external reference clock signal? Even Jord had said ultimately a two box solution was best. He uses two 2.16 machines as the streamer ?

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1 minute ago, flkin said:

 

Yes I have used both with the external tX-USBultra to distribute the clock goodness in a spaghetti setup. This was before moving to a single box streamer with clocks built in. Initially during the burning in process the external clock still helped. But after the Pink Faun settled down, I found that the internal clocks had exceeded the sound of the external reference clocks didn’t need them anymore.

 

The discussion of using a NUC as a Roon end point has got me interested in using external clocks again. I wonder if Larry can assembe a AL unit that accepts an external reference clock signal? Even Jord had said ultimately a two box solution was best. He uses two 2.16 machines as the streamer ?

Thanks for the info flkin.  May I know which clock did you use, the Ref 10 or the Cyber and in which grade?

 

For the mod of the mobo to change the clocks, is it the regime of the SOtM?  I look forward to hearing your mod results.

 

Regards.

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@ALRAINBOW you've consistently said that you find SQ on Linux rather thin compared to Windows Server in core mode.  Nobody seems to be complaining about thin sound with AudioLinux running in memory.  Have you tried it?

Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs

 

i7-6700K/Windows 10  --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's 

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15 minutes ago, TubeMan said:

BubbleDSNext on Android Tab or Phone

 

Is there anything for iOS?

At the moment I am using tidal desktop on win server2016.

Meitner ma1 v2 dac,  Sovereign preamp and power amp,

DIY speakers, scan speak illuminator.

Raal Requisite VM-1a -> SR-1a with Accurate Sound convolution.

Under development:

NUC7i7dnbe, Euphony Stylus, Qobuz.

Modded Buffalo-fiber-EtherRegen, DC3- Isoregen, Lush^2

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On 11/5/2018 at 8:36 AM, greenleo said:

AudioLinux Installation Guide 2:

 

Preparation:

** Continue from the end of Guide 1.  **

1. Unplug the USB disk.  Note: After the burning, Windows can't recognize it and hence can't eject it.

2. Insert the USB disk to a PC (power off) which you want to run the AudioLinux GUI mode

3. Power on the PC, get into the UEFI, from the boot menu, choose the just created USB disk as the boot device and boot.

4. Wait a relatively long time until you see a Windows environment (see the image below).  In the process, some text comes out from the screen.  Error message may come out but don't worry.  Wait until Windows environment comes out.

 

Steps to mount a local drive

1. Click the Start here folder (it may lag few seconds depend on the speed of your computer and the USB disk)

2. Click the local Drive that contains your music files

3. Input the password audiolinux0 as the password to mount

4. Check the mount is complete.

5. (As an example) Launch HQPlayer

6. Add you library, set the settings of HQPlayer and play your music by HQPlayer.

 

End of guide 2.  Enjoy!

 

 

My plan is to use my AL in headless ram boot mode with Roon as an endpoint feeding my Mutec 3+ USB.

 

I have created the USB boot device. Since I am not going to be accessing local files but connecting to my Roon Core I assume that I can basically skip the steps for drive mounting and go directly to the Roon folder to set up Roon in bridge mode?

 

After that is working then I can move on to the ram boot steps?

 

Assuming that I like this scenario better than my current  OS will there be any need to keep any storage or boot drives in my PC?

 

Thanks!


"Don't Believe Everything You Think"

System

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24 minutes ago, RickyV said:

 

Is there anything for iOS?

At the moment I am using tidal desktop on win server2016.

 

You might want to consider Roon. It will give you remote access on nearly any device and also allow you to fold in your local file library along with Tidal. It works very, very well and the sound quality is high.


"Don't Believe Everything You Think"

System

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1 minute ago, mourip said:

 

My plan is to use my AL in headless ram boot mode with Roon as an endpoint feeding my Mutec 3+ USB.

 

I have created the USB boot device. Since I am not going to be accessing local files but connecting to my Roon Core I assume that I can basically skip the steps for drive mounting and go directly to the Roon folder to set up Roon in bridge mode?

 

After that is working then I can move on to the ram boot steps?

 

Assuming that I like this scenario better than my current  OS will there be any need to keep any storage or boot drives in my PC?

 

Thanks!

Hi Mourip,

 

I don't use Roon because I have no license.  However, I believe that the headless can serve as a Roon Bridge as it is an item listed (please see the image as shown in my last headless guide).  The RAMBoot is on the menu as well.  Then run RAMBoot on the menu as well and you're done in the headless.

 

I'm not familiar with ROON.  I guess, for the rest of the operations should be done in the Roon Core (The control PC that holds the Roon Core I believe) and the Roon Control (like your smartphone)

 

Hope this helps and hope other members who use Roon may chime in.

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23 minutes ago, mourip said:

 

My plan is to use my AL in headless ram boot mode with Roon as an endpoint feeding my Mutec 3+ USB.

 

I have created the USB boot device. Since I am not going to be accessing local files but connecting to my Roon Core I assume that I can basically skip the steps for drive mounting and go directly to the Roon folder to set up Roon in bridge mode?

 

After that is working then I can move on to the ram boot steps?

 

Assuming that I like this scenario better than my current  OS will there be any need to keep any storage or boot drives in my PC?

 

Thanks!

I would certainly be interested to hear how AL performs feeding a REF10'd MC3+USB, I trust you will keep us posted!

Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade.  Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones.

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5 hours ago, tapatrick said:

 

Further thoughts on NUC/AL and listening experiences

What  a lot happened overnight! I’m reading all this with great interest and pondering what the expressions of OMG&WOW can mean for those who proclaim it on this thread and secondary why the need for some to try to discredit all as Fairy Tales.
 
Context
Last night I went to hear The Tord Gustavsen Trio on the opening night of the London Jazz festival. This was at the lovely Cadogan Hall in Chelsea, a beautiful venue. The concert was an extraordinary aural treat of meditative nordic mastery and I was as always listening intently to the live sound. 
 
Being an acoustic piano, drums and double bass trad trio I mostly heard the sound direct as it filled the venue so there was a natural sublime sound quality. 
 
The wonderful support duo was an albanian singer and guitarist Elina Duni & Rob Luft. The singer was amplified and again some of her voice was heard direct but I noticed how the trailing amplified ssssss’s in her voice still had a trace of what I am always trying to remove from my system at home. 
 
The revelation to me was that this obviously did not matter at all as the live music was not defined by this minor detail. Live music is all around, immersive, direct and when good its an uplifting, ecstatic emotional journey.
 
OMG WTF WOW FAIRY TALE
The night before, (in the light of recently reporting earlier in the thread how amazing my NUC running Audiolinux/Extreme/Ramboot/Roonbridge is) I had loaded AL/GUI in Ram mode on my MacBook Pro to run as a roonserver to serve the NUC endpoint. 
 
This was just a quick trial and I was not prepared for what happened. This was my OMG/WTF/WOW/ moment. I say this without hesitation. I have spend many years of time and money, researching, listening, isolating, clean powering, testing and tweaking by homing in on certain aspects of sound quality with some significant progress by my standards.
 
The combo of the Mac/AL server and NUC/AL endpoint is truly a revelation. This isn’t even set up the way I intend with AL/Headless/Ramboot and without any special cables, just connected via a thunderbolt/ethernet plug and a no name 5 metre cat cable to my router. 
 
The music is Alive
How this relates to the above story is that the quality of live music, as mentioned with Larry previously, is what I am now hearing at home. There are aspects of the voice that are not perfect and I’m now understanding that recording and amplification will always add a degree of artefact to the sound, and I'm not pretending that my system now sounds equal to the concert at the Cadogan Hall BUT the ambience, reverberations, nuances are in the WOW/OMG category - as the pianist shifts and strokes the keys, how the guitarist plucks strings, how the wood on the double bass squeaks, how breath sounds.
 
All these details are heard AND much more importantly carried in an atmosphere of being ALIVE. The sound of air pulsating with music is spine tingling and spooky NOT JUST THE DETAIL or black background, or etc ALONE. I’m not sure how this can be yet, and more trials and tests are on the cards but whatever is going on I highly recommend you try in order to see and feel for yourself, not just rely on beliefs and theories...

 

 

This is the same experience I had.  It's good to get confirmation and validation from others that I'm not crazy. :)

Thanks!

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4 hours ago, lmitche said:

What kind of media held your boot disk in your non ramboot experiment above? The type of media and how it is attached to the CPU matters greatly.

 

Good point.

 

It was the same USB stick (Sandisk Ultra Flair 32GB USB 3.0) in both cases. You're saying the non-RAMboot version could have sounded better - i.e. closed the gap - on faster media? Like NVMe SSD? Or even SATA SSD?

 

I guess the jury is still out then...

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The AudioLinux website says 

From version 1.9.7 you can load the entire system to RAM as an option. For this you need at least 16GB RAM (8 GB for AudioLinux headless). 

 

So this means I need 16GB to run the GUI version in memory?  

Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs

 

i7-6700K/Windows 10  --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's 

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