A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[sgr]

9 minutes ago, gordec said:

 

You think you can get the same result if you run Hyper V (virtual machine) and put Windows Server 2016?

I don’t know enough about that technology to answer. That’s one reason evaluation these systems for sound quality are so difficult. Without running the exact same software on the exact same equipment and stereo system one can’t tell for sure. 

 

As Roger Zelazny said,” All roads lead to Amber.” 

 

There maybe multiple roads, short cuts, and pitfalls along the way. 

 

In my experience none of these methods sound bad for sure. I’ve not heard any that don’t outperform the best CD/SACD player I’ve ever encountered. 

 

[sgr]

7 hours ago, gordec said:

 

You think you can get the same result if you run Hyper V (virtual machine) and put Windows Server 2016?

 Hi,

I just read about Hyper v technology. It sounds very interesting. I’m assuming one might construct a very powerful pc, install Hyper V and then you could run two virtual machines on one super PC. This might be a fabulous way to save money etc. 

 

One obviousl concern is HQPllayer and upsampoly PCM files to DSD 512 or higher. It takes a powerful matching to do this and a graphics processor. I’d think adding the Hyper V software would really a drag on the same resources theat HQPlayer needs. Plus I run ROON and ROONserver, Fidelizer and Process Lasso. All which can hog resroueces I believe. 

[Poldi]

I hope you guys are gonna be patient with a slow-minded one like me

 

I spent the last few evenings reading the most important posts of this massive thread (great work with the index!) which was still quite a long read.

 

So this is what I got:

So regarding the NUCs it is advised to follow a two-box-model with a low-power endpoint and a high-power server.

 

And regarding endpoints several people proved that using a NUC with more power results in better sound. The same was proven for NUCs as a server.

 

Regarding endpoints the following models were mentioned very often and ranked according to sound quality: NUC7CJYH < NUC7PJYH < NUC7i7DNBE

Is there a reason why these specific models were advised? Or can you just buy any NUC7-Board and the more powerful it is the better for the sound? (I am asking because some of the models mentioned are already sold out in my country)

 

And regarding server there is just the advice to buy a NUC with as much power as you can, right? (especially if you want to DSP-stuff)

 

Did anyone do comparisons between NUC7 and NUC8 boards regarding sound quality? I suppose there won't be a big difference but you never know...

[tboooe]

6 minutes ago, Poldi said:

NUC7CJYH < NUC7PJYH < NUC7i7DNBE

For the endpoint get the lowest power one you can.  No reason to get an i7.  The NUC7 and NUC8 also come in i3 versions.  I like the NUC7PJYH but it doesn't have an m.2 slot and I prefer to use an Optane drive for the OS.  This is why I am getting the i3 version.

[rickca]

12 minutes ago, Poldi said:

Is there a reason why these specific models were advised?

People actually listened to these models.  They are all 10W or 15W TDP.

 

Note that the NUC8 Bean Canyon series (see https://www.anandtech.com/show/13113/intel-officially-launches-bean-canyon-nucs-with-coffee-lake-u-processors) are all 28W and experience thermal throttling (which kills sound quality) in the standard case.  Just recently, Akasa has announced a fanless case for this series but there's no experience with it yet.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/13943/akasa-turing-passively-cooled-chassis-for-intel-bean-canyon-nuc

[Dev]

3 minutes ago, rickca said:

Note that the NUC8 Bean Canyon series (see https://www.anandtech.com/show/13113/intel-officially-launches-bean-canyon-nucs-with-coffee-lake-u-processors) are all 28W and experience thermal throttling (which kills sound quality) in the standard case.  Just recently, Akasa has announced a fanless case for this series but there's no experience with it yet.

 

I had this NUC and in my experience the thermal throttling ONLY happens with CPU load, for example, Roon initial library scan or HQP upsampling. If you use it as a streamer or just as a Roon server without upsampling, then there is no throttling at all. I don't think the fan or the stock case is the real issue for throttling, it could might well be a Bios bug, though a fanless case might lessen the severity.

[elan120]

45 minutes ago, Poldi said:

Regarding endpoints the following models were mentioned very often and ranked according to sound quality: NUC7CJYH < NUC7PJYH < NUC7i7DNBE

Is there a reason why these specific models were advised? Or can you just buy any NUC7-Board and the more powerful it is the better for the sound? (I am asking because some of the models mentioned are already sold out in my country)

I agree with @rickca that these are the ones people have done listening test, other model might work good as well, but without inputs from others, you won't know until give them a try.

 

In my case, I have compared to both NUC7PJYH and NUC7i7DNHE(same mobo as NUC7i7DNBE), and like NUC7i7DNHE better.

[gordec]

Currently with my setup Windows 10 -> Jriver both hosting DLNA server and playback -> ifi Pro idsd (connected to a network switch), I play everything fine except occasional stutter with DSD. I'm thinking it's the onboard ethernet issue on the motherboard. Has anyone experience a 10g ethernet card like https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Intel-X540-T2-OEM-10G-dual-RJ45-ports-Ethernet-Converged-Network-Adapter-U-S/132757453072?hash=item1ee8f5f910:g:ufUAAOSwQaJXSzbk:rk:1:pf:0?  I'm thinking about getting one so I can even put the pro idsd in bridge mode. I wonder if it will give better performance than a regular 1g ethernet pcie card.

[Poldi]

Thanks all of you for this helpful input!

 

Then I'll try to stick to one of the models mentioned for the endpoint.

 

And regarding server: As my server will also be standing in the living room I don't want to have a fan spinning if I can avoid it. And it would be easier to get a fanless case for a 10W or 15W TDP NUC and I would avoid thermal throttling.

 

In that case the NUC7i7DNBE would seem suitable. But is it strong enough for room correction? I haven't tried this so far but would like to do so in the future. Also it only has one ethernet port so bridging won't be possible. Hm... after reading the reports about bridging, I wouldn't want to miss it really.

[Bricki]

1 hour ago, Poldi said:

Thanks all of you for this helpful input!

 

Then I'll try to stick to one of the models mentioned for the endpoint.

 

And regarding server: As my server will also be standing in the living room I don't want to have a fan spinning if I can avoid it. And it would be easier to get a fanless case for a 10W or 15W TDP NUC and I would avoid thermal throttling.

 

In that case the NUC7i7DNBE would seem suitable. But is it strong enough for room correction? I haven't tried this so far but would like to do so in the future. Also it only has one ethernet port so bridging won't be possible. Hm... after reading the reports about bridging, I wouldn't want to miss it really.

Bridging is possible... just use a USB to Ethernet adapter

[Poldi]

Many thanks @Bricki! I wasn't aware of this possibility.

 

Regarding the server I have one more remark:

Although I found several posts trying to explain the reason why NUCs are so special regarding sound quality, I got the impression that this applies especially to NUCs as endpoints, right?

 

Because according to this post (and other posts) of @romaz: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?page=409&tab=comments#comment-892124

 

... he got very good results using non-NUC-servers together with NUC-endpoints. And his guess seems to be that having more cores and (perhaps a bigger smart cache) in the server has a positive impact on the sound. So for the server side it doesn't have to be a NUC as long as you can run Audiolinux on it in RAM?

Because if that is true, people who (like me) want to have a fanless server could also look for other solutions than NUC.

 

 

[the_doc735]

21 minutes ago, Poldi said:

Many thanks @Bricki! I wasn't aware of this possibility.

 

Regarding the server I have one more remark:

Although I found several posts trying to explain the reason why NUCs are so special regarding sound quality, I got the impression that this applies especially to NUCs as endpoints, right?

 

Because according to this post (and other posts) of @romaz: https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?page=409&tab=comments#comment-892124

 

... he got very good results using non-NUC-servers together with NUC-endpoints. And his guess seems to be that having more cores and (perhaps a bigger smart cache) in the server has a positive impact on the sound. So for the server side it doesn't have to be a NUC as long as you can run Audiolinux on it in RAM?

Because if that is true, people who (like me) want to have a fanless server could also look for other solutions than NUC.

 

 

my server: (not NUC but quite powerful)....

MSI Z370i GAMING PRO CARBON AC mini-ITX + Intel® HD Integrated Graphics 630. £220

Intel Core i7 Coffee Lake 8700 SE Gen.8 2.9GHz LGA1151 TDP 35W CPU. £400

Pink Faun i2s Bridge PCI-e (expansion/riser) Card. £370

Samsung (250GB) 960 M.2 (2280) Evo PCIe 3.0 (x4) NVMe 3D V-NAND SSD MZ-V6E250BW (x1). £135

Patriot Viper 4 16GB Dual Ch. DDR4 3000MHz PC4-24000 DIMM PV416G300C6K. £135 (expandable)

Streacom st-fc9b-opt-alpha PC Fanless Chassis. £200

Seasonic Prime Ultra ’80+’ Titanium 650 Watt ATX M-PSU. £215

 

...please note I have 3 projects on the go right now!

 

[Poldi]

@rickca: Is thermal throttling the same as "Thermal Monitoring Technologies"? If so then the 15W TDP  i7-8650 also has thermal throttling:

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/processors/core/i7-processors/i7-8650u.html

 

Or is it more unlikely for a 10W /15W TDP design to experience thermal throttling because it doesn't get as hot as a 28W TDP design? Hope it's not a stupid question to ask.

 

and thanks @the_doc735 for your recommendation!

[rickca]

2 hours ago, Poldi said:

Is thermal throttling the same as "Thermal Monitoring Technologies"?

No.  Thermal throttling means that the BIOS has to reduce the CPU clocks to keep things from overheating.  This means the CPU cannot sustain its peak performance potential.  Thermal monitoring just means the instrumentation is built in to measure and control the temperature. 

 

You are right the 10W/15W models don't generate as much heat as the 28W models and are unlikely to experience thermal throttling.  

 

Thermal throttling on the Bean Canyon models has been reported in benchmarks designed to stress the machine.  It's not something you will find in the specs.

[Poldi]

Hey @rickca thanks man for explaining!

 

So that means either stick with the 10/15W models.

 

Or if you want more power (and the findings of @austinpop and @romaz and others suggest the more power/cores the server has the better) you need server with a fan and/or a good enclosure and/or bigger dimensions than the NUC (to better dissipate the heat) to avoid thermal throttling.

[rickca]

2 hours ago, Poldi said:

So that means either stick with the 10/15W models.

 

Or if you want more power (and the findings of @austinpop and @romaz and others suggest the more power/cores the server has the better) you need server with a fan and/or a good enclosure and/or bigger dimensions than the NUC (to better dissipate the heat) to avoid thermal throttling.

Well, it's early in the game to make definitive statements.  Lots of people are experimenting to figure out how to do this right.  

[mikicasellas]

For those interested on building a Fanless NUC7i7DNHE:

 

There is this choice that comes ready...maybe too ready, apparently it has to be purchased with Ram and SSD among other things....

Hope it helps some in this forum!

 

https://simplynuc.com/7i7dnfe-full/

 

Miki

 

 

[Poldi]

thanks again @rickca!

 

The server @bobfa is building also looks interesting. Can't wait to hear his results. Although his built is probably too hard for me as a beginner to duplicate.

 

 

[rickca]

Here you go, a motherboard for the unlocked 28-core Xeon W-3175 ... only $1800 at Newegg! 😂

https://www.anandtech.com/show/13970/newegg-lists-asus-rog-dominus-extreme-motherboard-more-xeon-cpus-supported 

[carlmart]

OK, I'm just coming into this thread, which has an attention catching name to start with.

 

Please do not tell me I have to read all 524 pages of it.

 

My intention is to assemble two dedicated streaming networks at home: one for audio, one for video. They share the same PC and server, where all my files will be placed, in several HDDs. My guess is the final size should exceed 30TB, mostly because of the video library.

 

But I think this forum is only for audio, so let's get to what I was recommended to start with.

 

1) Server. For now I will use a PC that I already have, and I'm not using, as my server. With an Asus mobo and Intel cpu, running a Linux server soft. When the time comes I will get a "proper" server.

 

2) PC audio manager. HQplayer was the one that was recommended to me.

 

3) Ethernet cabled network. Nothing wireless.

 

4) Audio room streamer. Raspberry Pi 3 B+., which apparently has none of the issues other RPBY used to have, I am told. Linux and NAA are what I should use here. Will have to learn about it.

 

5) DAC output. The RPBY will connect to the DAC, for now a Topping D50, through USB. Which would allow me using DSD files too, that apparently HQplayer does handle. These I have also been told. 

 

The DAC analog output will feed the amplifier and speakers. Amplifier & speakers are also part of my 5.1 movie audio system, but has separate amplifier inputs for music listening.

 

The question now is if this assembly will provide the superior SQ I expect. How is this different from the other combos people are using?

 

Should I go elsewhere with these questions? Perhaps a specific Raspberry thread?

 

Thanks,

 

Carlos

[mourip]

27 minutes ago, carlmart said:

OK, I'm just coming into this thread, which has an attention catching name to start with.

 

Please do not tell me I have to read all 524 pages of it.

 

Please at least browse all 524 pages of it before telling us not to tell you to read all 524 pages of it. Thanks.

[carlmart]

Funny.

[austinpop]

3 minutes ago, carlmart said:

Funny.

 

To answer your question, please scroll to the top of this page, then click on the link that says “History and index of useful posts.”

[auricgoldfinger]

32 minutes ago, carlmart said:

OK, I'm just coming into this thread, which has an attention catching name to start with.

 

Please do not tell me I have to read all 524 pages of it.

 

My intention is to assemble two dedicated streaming networks at home: one for audio, one for video. They share the same PC and server, where all my files will be placed, in several HDDs. My guess is the final size should exceed 30TB, mostly because of the video library.

 

But I think this forum is only for audio, so let's get to what I was recommended to start with.

 

1) Server. For now I will use a PC that I already have, and I'm not using, as my server. With an Asus mobo and Intel cpu, running a Linux server soft. When the time comes I will get a "proper" server.

 

2) PC audio manager. HQplayer was the one that was recommended to me.

 

3) Ethernet cabled network. Nothing wireless.

 

4) Audio room streamer. Raspberry Pi 3 B+., which apparently has none of the issues other RPBY used to have, I am told. Linux and NAA are what I should use here. Will have to learn about it.

 

5) DAC output. The RPBY will connect to the DAC, for now a Topping D50, through USB. Which would allow me using DSD files too, that apparently HQplayer does handle. These I have also been told. 

 

The DAC analog output will feed the amplifier and speakers. Amplifier & speakers are also part of my 5.1 movie audio system, but has separate amplifier inputs for music listening.

 

The question now is if this assembly will provide the superior SQ I expect. How is this different from the other combos people are using?

 

Should I go elsewhere with these questions? Perhaps a specific Raspberry thread?

 

Thanks,

 

Carlos

 

Try using the index on page 1 as a starting point for more focused reading.

[Cornan]

I just want to report a thing I did today. I turned my attention to my fiber converter/mediabox  that distribute the fiber network to my appartment. I just switched the ethernet cable connected to the TV output to the RESERVE output. It made a major difference for the better. Not only for SQ, but for TV and Netflix as well. Surpricingly big difference actually. When I switch back to how it was it was actually unlistenable with a hollow sound in comparence. If you have a fiber optic media converter I would say it is defenitely worth a shot to try to switch the LAN sockets for the TV to the RESERVE socket. I cannot guarantee it will bring the same SQ difference for everyone but I can assure you that it is surely worth a try. 😊🙏🏽