Article: The Value Proposition In Audio: Buying And Selling Used Equipment

[bluesman]

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[The Computer Audiophile]

Thanks so much for the article @bluesman. There's no substitute for experience, but hopefully people can learn the hard lessons, the easy way by reading about them here. I'm continually surprised at the scammers who create accounts here and attempt to sell stuff. 

 

A couple things I look for.

1. Are the photos from another ad, somewhere else online? A quick Google image search helps with this. 

2. Does the seller have any location details for the item? This usually helps because I can find information about the seller behind the scenes. When someone claims his speakers are for sale and located in Indiana, but he is accessing the site from India, this is a read flag. The people who are real, will always engage in a conversation with me about this and have reasons for this. Scammers always try to scam, and will come up with some excuse. 

3. Serial numbers. These can usually be checked with the manufacturer. 

4. Additional photos with EXIF data. If the seller actually has the item, he can take additional photos and the buyer can look at the EXIF data to see when and where the photo was taken

[bluesman]

3 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 I'm continually surprised at the scammers who create accounts here and attempt to sell stuff. 

And I'm continually surprised by the otherwise reasonable and intelligent people who succumb to scams because they just can't resist the idea that they're getting something better or for less money than anyone else could have done.  I've passed on a few things that turned out to be real and wonderful opportunities.  But if I offset those potential gains against the losses and troubles I've avoided by passing on the other 99% of deals too good to be true, I'm a lifetime winner!!

 

 

[davide256]

I'm not sure that used audio is  as good a deal as it used to be. I see a lot of folks trying to sell used for 90% of new, whereas 80% or less used to be the rule.

For a 10 % savings used isn't worth the uncertainties to me.

[bluesman]

10 minutes ago, davide256 said:

I'm not sure that used audio is  as good a deal as it used to be. I see a lot of folks trying to sell used for 90% of new, whereas 80% or less used to be the rule.

For a 10 % savings used isn't worth the uncertainties to me.

I used to buy used just to experience different things.  I resold at little or no loss with little or no effort.  These days, the effort and associated risks deter me from the practice.  
 

So much new stuff is now so cheap that shipping costs can double its price when resold, while new items are often shipped free.  So a DAC that delivers to your door new for $200 is not such a good buy used when you add shipping, unless the asking price is half or less of its original cost.  The low marginal cost of a new one over the same item used is a major reason for the decline in great value in the resale market.

[Josh Mound]

Both @bluesman and @The Computer Audiophile give great advice. However, I will say that — provided one takes precautions — buying used can be great.
 

I never buy headphones used, for hygiene reasons, but the majority of my DACs and amps and speakers have been used. The riskiest of these is speakers because they so often get damaged in shipping. But — once again, provided one takes precautions — buying DACs and amps used can be a good way of experiencing different gear with modest risk. 

 

That said, you need to be really honest with yourself whether the potential savings are worth the risk. What’s your personal risk premium? In the case of currently-produced equipment, savings have to be relatively large for me to believe it’s worth it. That also needs to be adjusted according to whether the brand offers transferable warranties. For out-of-production equipment, you’re really looking at price history on sites like HiFiShark and going from there. 
 

As @bluesmannoted, in buying used it’s really all about trusting the seller. Sites that have good feedback systems, such as AudioMart and Audiogon are key. Even with good reviews, vet the seller by messaging with them, asking questions, asking for more photos, etc. Be suspicious of poor grammar, vague answers, an account that’s been inactive for a long time prior to this sale, an account that’s suddenly selling very different gear from the gear they previously received feedback for, etc. You never know if someone’s old account has been hacked. 
 

Finally, never ever use any kind of payment (PayPal friends and family, Venmo, etc.) that doesn’t allow you a way to dispute a charge. If a buyer pushes for that, end the interaction immediately. 
 

Out of 50+ used purchases, I’ve only had two occasion where I wound up unhappy. One was an item damaged in shipping, and the other was I think an honest mistake and the seller took the item back. (In that instance, I covered return shipping as a good faith gesture.) Maybe I’ve been lucky, but I do think with proper precautions it’s possible to have good experiences buying used.

 

Oh, and one weird tip I have is to make sure to ask about smoking, bedbugs, termites, etc. when buying gear. A seller might think it’s weird, but who cares? 

[FIndingit]

The best bargains and least risky to buy are equipment and speaker stands, racks etc. Actually I find it laughable why those should be and are being sold 50 % off.  

[Rexp]

My tip for buying used gear is avoid components that are readily available as sometimes even a high end manufacturer releases a dud product that ought to be good but isn't.

[firedog]

These days, manufacturers such as NAD, Schiit, and some of the Chinese based companies make very good (even state of the art) electronics in the $100-$1000 range. And there are also Class D amps for well under $1000 that are excellent.  And all in one amp-DAC units for a few hundred to $2k.

 

So little reason, IMO, to buy many of the used components around. You can get as good or better new for the same amount or even less. With a warranty. 

 

Of course, if you find a pretty high end piece being sold by a hobbyist upgrader - and it's a clear upgrade for you - that would be a good reason to buy: Getting something you'd never be able to afford otherwise. Or if a used piece has the looks you really like, or a certain feature you can't get elsewhere, that's a reason to buy used. 

[Allan F]

Some of my best used buys have been from locals who list their equipment on audio oriented marketplaces such as Canuck Audio Mart and have reliable, positive feedback. There is no substitute from meeting the seller in person. Even better if he/she is willing to bring the item over and allow you to hear it in your own system. And purchases from locals virtually eliminates shipping cost. It may take patience to find what you want but, in my experience, the wait is usually worth it both in terms of price and avoidance of risk. Of course, the availability of such opportunities is often limited to those who live in relatively large urban centres.

[oneguy]

As someone who moves around a lot and does a lot of online buying I’ve only had one bad experience buying/selling used and that was from a friend that stiffed me for $150. Other than that I’ve had a couple of annoying interactions, mainly stemming from someone lowballing me and then asking me to explain to them what the product does. 

As far as product risk buying when buying a used item goes, I’ve had 1 audio product arrive and fail shortly there after within the last decade of transactions. The original owner accepted the product back, warranty claimed it and I ended up with a a completely new unit at the used price which was 1/3 off of new. 
 

As pointed out in the article, most used items don’t fail past the first few months until the end of their service life. The item in the anecdote above only had approximately 50 hours on it when it was used so basically it was a new product failure. 

[bluesman]

10 hours ago, oneguy said:

As someone who moves around a lot and does a lot of online buying I’ve only had one bad experience buying/selling used and that was from a friend that stiffed me for $150.

A friend once pushed me really hard to sell him a small guitar amplifier that I loved but hadn’t used in a few years.  I didn’t want to sell it, and he played on our friendship really hard by telling me he couldn’t afford to buy anything nearly as good and he hoped I’d “be a good guy” and let him have it at a bargain price.  I was torn because we’d been friends for years.  But he was not a working musician and only wanted it to use at home.  Worse, the amp was not readily available any more and I almost certainly couldn’t get another one.

 

I lamented my troubles to one of my closest buddies, and his response was apocryphal:  “You can always buy another friend.”

 

Friends don’t stiff friends.

[oneguy]

4 minutes ago, bluesman said:

Friends don’t stiff friends.

Truer words were never spoken. 

[tubes59]

There seems to be a lot of pushback lately from sellers on sites like agon or usam against accepting PayPal or other payment methods that allow you a way to dispute a charge if something goes wrong regardless of who pays the service fee.  The sellers have established records with good feedback. They are usually selling more expensive items, but they state upfront in their ad that anything other than PayPal friends family, Venmo, or wire is not accepted as payment for the sale.  The sellers don't seem to be scammers and are often frequent and well-known contributors on the sites, but it still gives me great pause.
 

[bluesman]

14 minutes ago, tubes59 said:

The sellers don't seem to be scammers and are often frequent and well-known contributors on the sites, but it still gives me great pause.

….as it does me!

[bbosler]

 

18 hours ago, tubes59 said:

There seems to be a lot of pushback lately from sellers on sites like agon or usam against accepting PayPal or other payment methods that allow you a way to dispute a charge if something goes wrong regardless of who pays the service fee.  The sellers have established records with good feedback. They are usually selling more expensive items, but they state upfront in their ad that anything other than PayPal friends family, Venmo, or wire is not accepted as payment for the sale.  T

 

I don't get it. These same people will add $20 to a $100 restaurant tab for a tip and think nothing of it, but ask them to spend $30 for the convenience and protection that PayPal gives them on a $1000 sale and they freak out, or worse they use F&F to cheat PayPal out the fee they agreed to pay when they opened an account

 

[bluesman]

On 6/27/2022 at 1:00 PM, bbosler said:

I don't get it. These same people will add $20 to a $100 restaurant tab for a tip and think nothing of it, but ask them to spend $30 for the convenience and protection that PayPal gives them on a $1000 sale and they freak out, or worse they use F&F to cheat PayPal out the fee they agreed to pay when they opened an account

I think there are two factors driving that.  First, if you do 100+transactions a year, the 20% adds up to thousands.  They're making the decision to risk a few bad transactions for the additional money.  And the IRS now monitors PayPal etc to tax anyone who receives more than $600 /year through such transactions.  The F&F tier is not (yet) monitored.

 

Save your receipts to show the IRS that you paid more for an item that you received when you sold it.  If you're selling for profit, gains are taxable.  I think the IRS eliminated the hobby provisions this year, so you can no longer deduct hobby expenses up to the amount of money you made from your hobby.

[DigiPete]

A few observations from my own limited experience:
 

• I feel much safer buying "nerdy" items than standard items used, and I have found no scammers I couldn't flush out using "nerdy talk". Higher end PRO audio and audiophile gear tends to fall in this category.
• I totally prefer picking the equipment up in person after a good "nerdy" exchange. But I'm Scandinavian, and I suppose we trust each other more. Deal is usually by instant bank transfer with item in hand (yes, we have that).
• Genuine sellers will offer original purchase documents on serious €/$ gear, giving some track and trace and validation.
• B-stock audio items are usually discounted enough to take the appeal out of buying used.
  I do this from Thomann in EU (Sweetwater equivalent) - never any problems.

That said - I do take the (unrelated) precaution of not posting pictures of my main rig online. Not even on AS.
I suppose few people would even know how to get sound out of my AES/EBU monitors, if they actually managed to take off with it all (250kg equipment way up in an apartment building).

[botrytis]

For me, it is the big-ticket items that usually seemed to be scammed more. Example, just look at that AUCTION SITE and look at the number of Vintage Receivers, for example, that are being sold for insane amounts of money. So many of them using the same pictures too. I have had pictures, I took for selling items, stolen and reused by scammers.

[austinpop]

I too have bought and sold a lot of my gear used. The main sites I use are AS and US Audio Mart (USAM). My experience has been almost 100% positive, and in some ways, it has changed the way I think about audio expenditure. The true "cost" of a component now is not how much I paid for it, but the difference between what I paid to buy it used, and what I will get if/when I sell it used.

 

I completely agree about buying the seller. This may be an over-generalization, but I have found that buyers/sellers who appear to be actual audiophiles (from phone/email interaction) are almost always honest. I know there are always exceptions, but if I'm buying/selling an esoteric piece of gear, if the other party is knowledgeable about the gear, its place in the system, and can explain a reasonable rationale for buying/selling, the rest goes smoothly.

 

That said, there is no dearth of trolling of ads, and I'll leave you with some hilarious examples from a recent listing of mine:

• I would like to buy your XXX but I don't have the money. Would you be willing to trade services? I can wash your car, iron your shirts, give you a deep tissue massage. Whatever you want. Please consider. I live in your area and can pick it up in person later today or tomorrow. Thanks, 
• Hi, would you consider another price drop for your XXX? I hope you don't consider this a lowball offer but would you consider selling for $500? I have to pay alimony and child support which makes it hard for me to save up for audio stuff and I heard this is really an awesome XXX. 
• Hi, would you be interested in a trade for your XXX? I'll take your XXX + $25k and I'll send you my mint condition DCS Rossini.
• Hello, would you be willing to accept a trade for your XXX? I can offer 100 classical CDs (in excellent condition) and I will also include my wife’s recipe for Tandoori chicken.
• Hi I want to buy your XXX but I can't afford it since I'm homeless. Can you give it to me for free just this once? I'll make sure to pay it forward one day.

[The Computer Audiophile]

I should also add to this discussion, the importance of the community in policing the bad sellers. I've been notified many times by people who spot an ad on AS that is sketchy. They see the same seller elsewhere or the photos have been reused etc... Once I am tipped off, it's pretty easy to research the seller with data available to me behind the scenes. 

 

The bottom line is that without the help of the AS community, we couldn't offer a classified section. You guys are amazing. 

[bobfa]

TEAMWORK! With great leadership...  Thanks Chris.

[DigiPete]

I suppose it's cheating, but I tend to give away (or more or less permanently lend out) equipment to a worthy home.
This way I get to cherry-pick the "buyer" 😃

[Frank Guerrero]

A simple principle I use, and look for: I always keep the original packaging. Besides adding (more) legitimacy to the purchase, it also shows a potential buyer that I've cared (valued) the equipment enough to keep it. It goes without saying: it increases the risk of shipment damage.

[bluesman]

42 minutes ago, Frank Guerrero said:

A simple principle I use, and look for: I always keep the original packaging. Besides adding (more) legitimacy to the purchase, it also shows a potential buyer that I've cared (valued) the equipment enough to keep it. It goes without saying: it increases the risk of shipment damage.

No question about it - having the original packaging is both really nice and a sign of a caring owner.  The problem with getting old is that most of us eventually downsize and lose the storage spaces we had / found / created / appropriated.  This makes it very hard to keep large, bulky boxes.  So, for example, I kept the packaging from my Focal towers for years in the basement of our house, but I had to disgard it when we retired, downsized, and moved to our condo apartment.  I had so many boxes from things I still love and use that it was just not practical to take it with us and not worth the cost of paid storage space.

 

I still have the original boxes from small stuff like my 1969 SME 3009.  I even kept the boxes from my Prima Luna power amp, and I don't honestly know why.  But nothing larger than the box from my espresso machine made the cut when we retired.

 

The biggest packaging error I ever made was when the original box from the Rogers LS3/5a monitors that I bought new in early 1976 was severely water damaged by a leaky hot water heater.  I don't know how the LS3/5as are packaged now, but when they first came out, a matched pair came in a single box.  The cardboard was soaked through, as was the internal padding.  It was totally useless as a box, so I studpidly threw it all out.  Now that I'm thinning the herd, I wish I had that box to go with the Rogers (currently posted in the AS classifieds).