UpTone EtherRegen measured. It's a switch.

[jtwrace]

2 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

It's very relevant because whenever numbers and measurements are involved, those with the knowledge are at an advantage over laymen. Laymen have no idea if there are games being played with this measurement or its results.

Hence the reason that 3rd party results are always required in the science world.  It's called peer review (round robin), however; when the manufacture can't produce what they is indeed the baseline, it's hard to "prove" the baseline since in this case there is NO scientific data to backup any claims.  

[mansr]

Just now, The Computer Audiophile said:

It's very relevant because whenever numbers and measurements are involved, those with the knowledge are at an advantage over laymen. Laymen have no idea if there are games being played with this measurement or its results.

For whatever it's worth, I don't seen any signs of gameplay here.

[pkane2001]

46 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I'm not sure what facts I can reveal, but people can put some of the dots together by looking at the evidence that's public. If your company helps Amir make money your products won't be talked about in the same vein and won't have a subjective slime wrapped around the measurements. 

 

Seriously, start by asking him why he hasn't measured the Berkeley Audio Design current production products and compared them to his list of inexpensive products. He certainly has access to the products. He was and still may be a dealer for them. He is friends with Michael Ritter from way back in the Pacific Microsonics / Microsoft acquisition days. 

 

Ever wonder why he is a big supporter of MQA? The dots are there to be connected. They revolve around money and friendships. 

 

Why does this matter? Because it's the tip of the iceberg and oozes into everything done over there. 

 

Smells a little like the basement of the pizza parlor incident @Jud referred to earlier. Those involved also just "connected the dots". 

 

But as @mansr said, attacking an individual (even if it's well deserved) does not do anything to negate measurement results. All it does is demonstrate that those attacking have nothing better to counter real evidence. Chris, you asked for the "discussion based on information" and then share these conspiracy theories against Amir. Does that even make sense?

 

[Jud]

2 hours ago, thumb5 said:

For what it's worth, my view is that the argument arises because Uptone are using an appeal to technical authority to market the device, and both theory and (now) measurement suggest the technical argument is likely without merit.

People who have an engineering background and/or technical knowledge in the relevant domain quite reasonably get upset when "their" language and specific terminology is mis-used or mis-represented to sell a product.  I think that's what's putting the "heat" into the argument.

 

Since Uptone are using this technical marketing strategy, and say they have engineered the device to solve a specific problem, they should be able to present independently-repeatable measurements showing an objective "before and after" effect on the DAC output - that's to say, a demonstration both of the problem and the solution to it.

 

The argument could be brought onto a more rational level if Uptone were to provide the promised measurements.  The fact that these have not been forthcoming fans the flames because it (arguably) demonstrates that the engineering is not complete.

 

I appreciate the reasoned tone of your comment. Allow me to reasonably disagree. 🙂

 

It was clearly disclosed to every single one of us who purchased an EtherREGEN that it was based on an unproved hypothesis for which no measurements had been provided or even taken. This is a situation in which many people would decline to spend their hard earned cash, and I imagine that virtually all the people who feel that way did not purchase the EtherREGEN.

 

I feel that to go beyond declining to purchase and advising people clearly of measurements and their meaning, to language like "fan the flames," is putting forth effort toward feeling aggrieved, which makes no sense to me. How else should one put forward an engineering hypothesis, correct or incorrect, than in the language of engineering?

 

People who are skeptical have lost nothing, and are free as they wish to provide and discuss measurements. People who have purchased and decided they hear nothing that excites them have also lost nothing, since there is a 30-day full money back guarantee.

 

People who have purchased and are happy, however foolish and wrong they (I) may be - well, we're happy. 

 

As I said previously, these groups aren't going to convince each other.

 

So where a sense of grievance or "heat" or a need to argue come from, I don't know.

[thumb5]

@Jud - fair points, well made.

[The Computer Audiophile]

14 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Smells a little like the basement of the pizza parlor incident @Jud referred to earlier. Those involved also just "connected the dots". 

 

But as @mansr said, attacking an individual (even if it's well deserved) does not do anything to negate measurement results. All it does is demonstrate that those attacking have nothing better to counter real evidence. Chris, you asked for the "discussion based on information" and then share these conspiracy theories against Amir. Does that even make sense?

 

I gave you some facts that you ignored. Not even close to conspiracy theories. 

 

You seem to be in the THD+N crowd. All measurements exist in a vacuum and must be taken at face value. The world is black and white. This isn't a personal attack, just an observation that you can help backup or refute. 

[mansr]

2 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I gave you some facts that you ignored. Not even close to conspiracy theories. 

 

You seem to be in the THD+N crowd. All measurements exist in a vacuum and must be taken at face value. The world is black and white. This isn't a personal attack, just an observation that you can help backup or refute. 

Let's try an analogy (and invoke Godwin's law):

1. The Nazis invented rockets.

2. The Nazis were evil.

3. Therefore, rockets do not work.

[pkane2001]

41 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I gave you some facts that you ignored. Not even close to conspiracy theories. 

 

You seem to be in the THD+N crowd. All measurements exist in a vacuum and must be taken at face value. The world is black and white. This isn't a personal attack, just an observation that you can help backup or refute. 

 

Conspiracy theory about me this time?  I think it's important to stick to the facts, Chris, and not to make assumptions about individuals. This is where most of these threads get derailed, IMHO.

 

I'm in no crowd. In fact, I'm in the "prove it to me" crowd. Look at my signature and check out the Distort tool I started building recently. It's designed to answer exactly the question of what levels of THD, and THD+N are audible. Do you think I'd waste my time building tools like DeltaWave and Distort if I didn't want to see real proof, real evidence instead of these constant appeals to authority and to the opinion of the crowd that dominate the discussion here? (and to a significant degree on ASR, as well)

[Jud]

34 minutes ago, mansr said:

For whatever it's worth, I don't seen any signs of gameplay here.

 

I have no basis to assume anything wrong with the measurements themselves - I don't have the technical knowledge to judge. I note @Miska's comment about digital silence, but I don't know whether the particular DACs used in the testing behave in the way he describes, or precisely how the measurements were done.

 

Beyond the measurements there's a fair amount of unconfirmed innuendo regarding EMI radiation of an item that is labeled as being within acceptable parameters in that regard, and how operating temperature might relate to expected life, something UpTone clarified in advance of sale (that the unit runs hot, that this is within design parameters, and it is not expecting to shorten the operating life of the ER). To me this is innuendo and out the other (🙂), but it looks intended to insinuate rather than inform. It doesn't make the measurements inaccurate, but it does seem clearly indicative of bias.

[plissken]

2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I agree 100%. 

 

While he is likely not attempting to conduct rigorous tests, his believers certainly use his results as definitive answers and ammunition with which to assassinate anyone who isn't in the cult.

Patently not true. What a lot of us are looking for is a manufacturer to say:

 

No these are the wrong tests. Here are the tests we used internally and here is how you replicate them.

2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

OK, maybe that's a bit too harsh. However, the measurements at ASR are created to be used as weapons against those who Amir doesn't have business or personal relationships with. 

 

Again not true. The measurements are the measurements. If you've a problem then out measure him or prove is wrong, incomplete, inconclusive.

2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

You will never see Amir measure  a current production Berkeley Audio Design product, compare it to a $100 DAC that measures equally as good, and excoriate Berkeley Audio Design. It won't happen. Those who admire his work should ask him why he is playing favorites, publishing results that only effect people that aren't in his inner circle. 

 

What's your point here Chris? He's measured scores of DAC's now, many of them a fraction of the price of a Berkeley product that he recommends.

 

You're painting a picture of conflict of interest where none exists.

[plissken]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Correct, all his tests aren't flawed or rigged, but must be taken with grains of salt and evaluated thoroughly.

 

Or if you have the chops and equipment: Debunk them.

 

 

[plissken]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

OK excellent. Was the test methodology one rigorous enough or standard so it could determine audibility outside this specific test run on this specific hardware under these specific conditions?

It's both a start and better than anything I've seen from any vendor of any purported Audiophile Switch.

 

These are buffered systems that you can start play back on and pull the Network Cable out of and still continue play.

[plissken]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

What if the DAC used for testing has similar technology to the EtherRegen making it immune to its claimed benefits? Does anyone know more about this?

 

That's why a Schiit Modi 2 was also tested. It's a DAC known for it's demonstrably flawed input and even that the needle didn't move on it when driven. Or is the computer used to drive the Modi 2 have similar technology to the EtherRegen?

[mansr]

33 minutes ago, Jud said:

Beyond the measurements there's a fair amount of unconfirmed innuendo regarding EMI radiation of an item that is labeled as being within acceptable parameters in that regard

The power supply (from a Chinese OEM) is certified and labeled. The main unit is neither.

[Indydan]

Amir, Plissken and mansr all have a huge hate boner against Uptone Audio. It's just incredible, the time and effort they spend to attack this company.

[thyname]

1 minute ago, Indydan said:

Amir, Plissken and mansr all have a huge hate boner against Uptone Audio. It's just incredible, the time and effort they spend to attack this company.

 

The first two for sure. Absolutely! For some type of personal vendetta. As for Mansr, I would not pay much attention. Because, well.... he is The Troll. (that's how he named himself)

[Ralf11]

9 hours ago, firedog said:

Nonsense. I have a great system that I enjoy listening to. I like to spend my money on products that have demonstrable benefits. I'm perfectly capable of buying the ER or any other add on product and "hearing" an SQ bump in sighted listening. I prefer not to spend my money just to engage in self deception. 

And don't misunderstand: if reputable measurements come out showing what the ER does, I'd be glad to buy it. I'd also probably buy it if several well run/designed blind listening tests showed it to make an audible difference. I am willing to entertain the possibility that there are aspects to audio we don't know how to measure. I'm just not willing to use that catch all explanation for every sighted (and by definition) biased listening test. 

 

well put

 

I would still like to know how all that noise gets past the transformers on wired Ethernet, so that this sort of thing is needed at all.  The other "explanations" for this item make no sense at all.  Without proof this product look like a dud.

[Ralf11]

7 hours ago, mansr said:

The measured noise is of course (largely) created by the DAC. That is entirely expected. What the test shows is that the output of the DAC is not influenced by the choice of Ethernet switch. Even if the switches do something differently, the DAC doesn't care. So why pay 10x more for no change in outcome?

 

Do you give any credence to the argument that the measurements should have been made with music playing?

[tapatrick]

6 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

Sorry, but which part of the posted measurements is biased and presumptuous?

Biased and presumptuous the conclusions being made about what the measurements mean. 

 

Biased and presumptions that many (as far as I can tell) sane and discerning folks are fooling themselves by buying the ER. 

[plissken]

18 minutes ago, Indydan said:

Amir, Plissken and mansr all have a huge hate boner against Uptone Audio. It's just incredible, the time and effort they spend to attack this company.

Not at all.

 

As a matter of fact I created a thread here about the ISO Regen improving the Schiit Modi 2 output. Now on other competently designed DAC's the proper isolation and filtering was already there.

 

Also it was Amir that did that measurement.

[mansr]

3 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

Do you give any credence to the argument that the measurements should have been made with music playing?

None whatsoever. Purpose-designed test signals give much more informative results.

[mansr]

29 minutes ago, Indydan said:

Amir, Plissken and mansr all have a huge hate boner against Uptone Audio. It's just incredible, the time and effort they spend to attack this company.

You must have missed my arguments with Gordon Rankin.

[Ralf11]

3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I'm not sure what facts I can reveal, but people can put some of the dots together by looking at the evidence that's public. If your company helps Amir make money your products won't be talked about in the same vein and won't have a subjective slime wrapped around the measurements. 

 

Seriously, start by asking him why he hasn't measured the Berkeley Audio Design current production products and compared them to his list of inexpensive products. He certainly has access to the products. He was and still may be a dealer for them. He is friends with Michael Ritter from way back in the Pacific Microsonics / Microsoft acquisition days. 

 

Ever wonder why he is a big supporter of MQA? The dots are there to be connected. They revolve around money and friendships. 

 

Why does this matter? Because it's the tip of the iceberg and oozes into everything done over there. 

 

Assuming arguendo that the above is true, how does it affect these measurements?

 

Did his bias cause him to misread the noise analyzer?

 

Did his bias lead him to mis-perform the measurements in some manner?

 

Did his bias affect the screenshots he posted?

[Jud]

49 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

I would still like to know how all that noise gets past the transformers on wired Ethernet

 

There was a brief period during which my system as configured had audible noise if I used my laptop's SMPS.  Baaske Ethernet isolators audibly reduced the level of the noise, though they did not eliminate it.   http://baaske-medical.de/en/223-network-isolator-med-mi-1005.html

 

Running my laptop from the battery when I wanted to listen to music eliminated the noise entirely, until I shortly afterwards reconfigured the system to eliminate the noise with the SMPS plugged in. So though I cannot tell you how the noise gets across wired Ethernet (or perhaps more specifically, that wired Ethernet can be part of a system in which such noise exists, and additional Ethernet isolation transformers can reduce that noise), I can certainly tell you it does.

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 hour ago, plissken said:

 

That's why a Schiit Modi 2 was also tested. It's a DAC known for it's demonstrably flawed input and even that the needle didn't move on it when driven. Or is the computer used to drive the Modi 2 have similar technology to the EtherRegen?

 

OMG, I guess I need to look at this. He tested a DAC without Ethernet input, to test the effects, if any, of an Ethernet "regen?" Please tell me how this makes any sense. 

 

 

 

 

36 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

Assuming arguendo that the above is true, how does it affect these measurements?

 

Did his bias cause him to misread the noise analyzer?

 

Did his bias lead him to mis-perform the measurements in some manner?

 

Did his bias affect the screenshots he posted?

 

 

Hi Ralf - Let me turn this back on to you. If you had a hidden vested interest and were biased against a company, do you think you or a competent engineer, could design a test and discuss the results, that made the company look bad? 

 

My point is that the hidden vested interests and bias lead to tests that aren't rigorous, commentary that doesn't necessarily match the tests, and a megaphone effect of information that maybe incredibly misleading and harms peoples' businesses and livelihoods. 

 

For example, the title of this thread says the EtherRegen is just a switch, based on the tests done at ASR. The reality is far different. The tests are only valid for exactly what was tested with the exact DACs in a laboratory situation (which has been proven incorrect in the past) etc... I'm willing to bet not a single person here who claims the ER is a sham, bothered to backup this testing, look into it to see if it was rigorous enough to make statements that can harm people, did any testing on his own, etc... 

 

When people took Amir's word for it, with respect to the microRendu, they spouted untrue, factually incorrect data that harmed a business. The objective crowd is starting to remind me of the cancel culture and #HashTagHeros permeating society.