UpTone EtherRegen measured. It's a switch.

[thyname]

This thread is clearly a coordinated attack against a small US based company from a handful of people. An attack that started at ASR forums months before the EtherRegen was launched. Same handful of people, in multiple sites and forums. Why these people, especially Mark Brown (aka Plissken here aka Jinjuku at ASR), are trying the proverbial “burn to the ground” strategy against UpTone, is beyond my understanding. Such switches have been around for a while now (SOtM, Melco, AQVOX), some much more expensive than EtherRegen, and yet, they are not attacking these guys, at least not with this ferocity. Perhaps @Superdad should look at some legal help here, to maybe discover the hidden competitors driven motives of such attacks?

[thyname]

2 hours ago, FredM said:

Exactly, I wonder how some people buy their car.. 🤔

‘Blind test, obviously 😂

[Jud]

3 hours ago, firedog said:

 

I don't like the tone of this thread or the one at ASR,  but it would be useful if someone could come up with a relevant response to Amir's measurements. So far only ad hominem attacks that are meaningless, and responses which avoid actually answering the questions raised: 

 

I think I am going to fall into the latter category. 🙂

 

I understand there is every probability what I think I'm hearing from my system with the ER is all in my head, completely subjective, a small black aluminum-clad placebo. I really do. And yet I'm getting so much enjoyment out of listening to music with this placebo effect that I do not care. I am very happy.

 

I am taking great pleasure in listening to my music, and am also perfectly happy to read all the measurements of the ER anyone wants to make. I read Amir's piece with interest. What I don't understand so much is why the people who enjoy listening and the people who are interested in measurements feel such a need to argue. Do you really think you're going to convince each other? Of course you don't, so all you're doing is wasting time arguing.

 

I'll be happily listening and watching for any additional measurements.

[mansr]

31 minutes ago, thyname said:

This thread is clearly a coordinated attack against a small US based company from a handful of people. An attack that started at ASR forums months before the EtherRegen was launched. Same handful of people, in multiple sites and forums. Why these people, especially Mark Brown (aka Plissken here aka Jinjuku at ASR), are trying the proverbial “burn to the ground” strategy against UpTone, is beyond my understanding. Such switches have been around for a while now (SOtM, Melco, AQVOX), some much more expensive than EtherRegen, and yet, they are not attacking these guys, at least not with this ferocity. Perhaps @Superdad should look at some legal help here, to maybe discover the hidden competitors driven motives of such attacks?

The real question is why Alex/Superdad is so deeply afraid of anyone discussing measured technical performance of his trinkets. Perhaps he is the one hiding something.

[Jud]

Just now, mansr said:

The real question is why Alex/Superdad is so deeply afraid of anyone discussing measured technical performance of his trinkets. Perhaps he is the one hiding something.

 

Oh, it must be something awful! A child porn ring in the basement of a pizza parlor, I bet!😱

 

😂😂

[pkane2001]

1 hour ago, tapatrick said:

From reading this thread (and similar ones) all I can glean is that Amir made some measurements, concluded that the ER is no different from a less expensive model and therefore those who try it and say it makes a noticeable difference are being fooled or are imagining the improvement.  
Not very scientific and full of bias and presumption. 

Sorry, but which part of the posted measurements is biased and presumptuous?

[pkane2001]

14 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Oh, it must be something awful! A child porn ring in the basement of a pizza parlor, I bet!😱

 

😂😂

Something much more sinister: an Ethernet switch purported to make an audible difference. Don’t know if Alex keeps it in the basement, though, or if he has any pizza in the house 

 

[LowMidHigh]

9 minutes ago, mansr said:

The real question is why Alex/Superdad is so deeply afraid of anyone discussing measured technical performance of his trinkets. Perhaps he is the one hiding something.

 

I'm sure you'll blow my forthcoming and speculative answer off as it won't fit the conspiracy you suspect in your mind. Nevertheless:

 

Alex is at John's mercy when it comes to measurements, and John is both extremely busy and  doesn't view proving the supremacy of his designs paramount, as--in his mind--the improvement in sound is so obviously clear. 

 

Further, the level and nature of measurements he'd like to ultimately extract require expensive equipment and home-brewed devices that dampen his enthusiasm even more. 

 

This is not advocacy, rather laying out a plausible conjecture.

 

 

 

 

[mansr]

1 minute ago, LowMidHigh said:

Alex is at John's mercy when it comes to measurements, and John is both extremely busy and  doesn't view proving the supremacy of his designs paramount

That's a downright bizarre stance for a designer.

[opus101]

22 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

Sorry, but which part of the posted measurements is biased and presumptuous?

 

I'd say its presumptuous to expect to see evidence of difference in normal mode measurements when the isolation feature of ER is likely only to show up in common mode.

[pkane2001]

1 minute ago, opus101 said:

 

I'd say its presumptuous to expect to see evidence of difference in normal mode measurements when the isolation feature of ER is likely only to show up in common mode.

 

Can you please explain this? What should've Amir done differently?

[opus101]

I don't have a view on what he should have done without knowing his intention. If I were the one testing the ER I'd not be using an AP on the output of an attached DAC, perhaps an SA (spectrum analyser) with tracking generator would be a starting point.

[Miska]

13 hours ago, plissken said:

Here is one measurement up to 90Khz and showing no deviation vs a TP-Link switch. This is noise test so no tone is playing. Just looking at the Streamer noise floor.

 

Usually DACs mute outputs when no tone is playing. Sabre also mutes output if same sample value is repeated 1024 times or more (IIRC). Which is also good to avoid accidental DC outputs. So for example if you play digital silence (zeros), you don't get a proper noise floor measurement, but instead the DAC output is just short circuited to ground...

 

If you want to measure noise floor of an ESS Sabre DAC, you need to play dithered silence to keep the DAC active. Anybody measuring DACs should know these things!

 

P.S. I'm not really expecting much of a difference if any. Ethernet is isolated unless someone spoils it with audiophile shielded cables. And doesn't carry any audio related clocks or such, just plain data.

[pkane2001]

1 minute ago, opus101 said:

I don't have a view on what he should have done without knowing his intention. If I were the one testing the ER I'd not be using an AP on the output of an attached DAC, perhaps an SA (spectrum analyser) with tracking generator would be a starting point.

 

How is attaching an AP to an audio output of a device the wrong thing to do (or presumptuous, as you stated), since that's exactly how it's designed to be used?

[firedog]

2 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

I’ve just looked at the full review, and frankly I’m no less confused. Essentially the EtherRegen was compared to a TPLink switch and the comparison revealed NO, I repeat NO difference.  Now one of the things I’ve learned through almost 40 years of scientific testing, is that when a comparison of 2 different things show up NO differences, you might not be testing what you think you’re testing. 

So I looked a little closer at the testing protocol.....and again I’m no expert in digital electronics.....I only look at the logic of the testing.   The results showed very low level noise and were indeed identical, so identical that they look for all the world like they were measuring the SAME THING.  Looking a little further at the results, there was also NO difference between the ‘A’ and ‘B’ ports of the Etherregen, so now we’re testing 3 (!) inputs and all are giving the exact same results.  That’s beyond unusual in terms of any sensitive measurements, its practically unheard of.  So I took another look at the test protocol and what we have is 3 inputs to a DAC (Etherregen A, B and TP Link) with the measurement at the DACs output.  Logically then, we’re not measuring the TP Link, Etherregen A and B, what we’re actually measuring is TP Link + DAC, Etherregen A + DAC and Etherregen B + DAC. So what do all those measurements have in common?  The DAC. And what would happen if the noise we’re measuring all came from the DAC...remember the DAC is an active device.   All the measurements would be the same, identical. Which they are. So, either I’m missing something important due to my ignorance and I’m happy to get technical input in that regard, or the test is flawed. Generally speaking a good scientific test has a ‘control’ or a ‘blank’ element. In the case of this test that would be an ethernet feed with no switch. At least then you’d at least know if both switches were removing noise or not. In this case, you’ve no idea what noise is coming into the DAC vs what’s being output and you’ve no idea what the switches are doing vs what the DAC is adding 

Don't agree at all.

The ER and all similar devices make the claim that they improve SQ by reducing "noise" going into the DAC which then improves the audible output at the DAC. If the output at the DAC isn't improved, it's irrelevant what the device "does", as it isn't making any difference to SQ, at least not in any audible way  ("improvements at -130db don't count). 

 

Amir's test is correct in concept - testing how the ER  effects the output of the DAC, which is what it claims to do. If you test the ER on it's own and it "reduces noise", that doesn't prove what we need to know. What if the existence or non existence of that "noise" has no effect on the functioning of the DAC, in spite of what Uptone and others claim? What if, as many claim, all well designed modern DACs are basically immune to the effects of the noise Uptone claims the ER reduces? 

 

 Note Amir  also tested a second DAC which he knows to have issues and that even he says was helped a bit by the USB Regen; this DAC also showed no difference in output with the ER attached in the chain. 

 

If what you are saying is true, how come manufacturers of such devices can't find DACs that show improvement when these devices are in line? If the devices do what they claim, it should be easy to find multiple DACs that have an output improved by the device.

[thumb5]

11 minutes ago, Jud said:

What I don't understand so much is why the people who enjoy listening and the people who are interested in measurements feel such a need to argue.

For what it's worth, my view is that the argument arises because Uptone are using an appeal to technical authority to market the device, and both theory and (now) measurement suggest the technical argument is likely without merit.

People who have an engineering background and/or technical knowledge in the relevant domain quite reasonably get upset when "their" language and specific terminology is mis-used or mis-represented to sell a product.  I think that's what's putting the "heat" into the argument.

 

Since Uptone are using this technical marketing strategy, and say they have engineered the device to solve a specific problem, they should be able to present independently-repeatable measurements showing an objective "before and after" effect on the DAC output - that's to say, a demonstration both of the problem and the solution to it.

 

The argument could be brought onto a more rational level if Uptone were to provide the promised measurements.  The fact that these have not been forthcoming fans the flames because it (arguably) demonstrates that the engineering is not complete.

[opus101]

Just now, pkane2001 said:

 

How is attaching an AP to an audio output of a device the wrong thing to do (or presumptuous, as you stated), since that's exactly how it's designed to be used?

 

Sorry, I can't follow you here - in particular the 'exactly how....used?' part. You're saying the AP is designed to be used like this? Yes an AP is designed to test DACs (amongst other things). Or is the 'it' referring to the ER? In which case yes the ER is designed to connect to a DAC but not designed to connect to a DAC solely connected to an AP, rather a DAC going on to an amp or pre-amp then amp. System details do matter and Amir's system wasn't representative of a typical use case.

[pkane2001]

4 minutes ago, opus101 said:

 

Sorry, I can't follow you here - in particular the 'exactly how....used?' part. You're saying the AP is designed to be used like this? Yes an AP is designed to test DACs (amongst other things). Or is the 'it' referring to the ER? In which case yes the ER is designed to connect to a DAC but not designed to connect to a DAC solely connected to an AP, rather a DAC going on to an amp or pre-amp then amp. System details do matter and Amir's system wasn't representative of a typical use case.

 

So are you saying that without having a preamp, amp, speakers in the circuit the effect of ER cannot be detected? 

[opus101]

Just now, pkane2001 said:

 

So are you saying that without having a preamp, amp, speakers in the circuit the result of ER cannot be detected? 

 

Did you see me mention speakers? If the desire is to see if the ER reduces common-mode noise, then certainly merely connecting it to an AP won't suffice. As I mentioned I don't know Amir's intention - if he wanted a test to show no difference then he chose an appropriate one. If he wanted to test ER's isolation then he would have come up with some way to see if there was a reduction in CM noise in a typical system. An AP does not pass muster as a typical system.

[thumb5]

4 minutes ago, opus101 said:

the ER is designed to connect to a DAC but not designed to connect to a DAC solely connected to an AP, rather a DAC going on to an amp or pre-amp then amp. System details do matter and Amir's system wasn't representative of a typical use case.

If the DAC output is different depending on whether or not it's connected to an amp or pre-amp, isn't that a fault of the DAC and orthogonal to whether or not the ER does anything - or have I missed something?

[firedog]

1 hour ago, thyname said:

This thread is clearly a coordinated attack against a small US based company from a handful of people. An attack that started at ASR forums months before the EtherRegen was launched. Same handful of people, in multiple sites and forums. Why these people, especially Mark Brown (aka Plissken here aka Jinjuku at ASR), are trying the proverbial “burn to the ground” strategy against UpTone, is beyond my understanding. Such switches have been around for a while now (SOtM, Melco, AQVOX), some much more expensive than EtherRegen, and yet, they are not attacking these guys, at least not with this ferocity. Perhaps @Superdad should look at some legal help here, to maybe discover the hidden competitors driven motives of such attacks?

Coordinated attack? Really? It's a review, done the way Amir does every review about every device.

You can say lots of stuff about Amir, but he calls them as he measures them. He didn't even procure the ER,  a reader sent it to him for testing, as often happens.

 

He sometimes reports on multiple devices in a day. I'm not sure why you jump to conspiracy theories. Send him a SOtM switch or whatever, and he will measure it. He measures all sorts of stuff from all sorts of companies, but rarely super expensive stuff, as he can't afford to buy it and owners of such stuff usually don't send him such devices.

 

Either Amir's measurements are relevant or not; either done properly or not. All the  rest is just nonsense speculation and conspiracy theories. 

[pkane2001]

3 minutes ago, opus101 said:

Did you see me mention speakers? 

 

I didn't, but I inferred that you may want to include speakers, as they are part of a "typical system"

 

[firedog]

1 hour ago, Jud said:

 

I think I am going to fall into the latter category. 🙂

 

I understand there is every probability what I think I'm hearing from my system with the ER is all in my head, completely subjective, a small black aluminum-clad placebo. I really do. And yet I'm getting so much enjoyment out of listening to music with this placebo effect that I do not care. I am very happy.

 

I am taking great pleasure in listening to my music, and am also perfectly happy to read all the measurements of the ER anyone wants to make. I read Amir's piece with interest. What I don't understand so much is why the people who enjoy listening and the people who are interested in measurements feel such a need to argue. Do you really think you're going to convince each other? Of course you don't, so all you're doing is wasting time arguing.

 

I'll be happily listening and watching for any additional measurements.

That's great. The difference between you and many other posters is that you are willing to admit you may be fooling yourself, and you also don't claim that your listening results have any broader meaning that applies to others or the device in general. 

But you are probably right that it's a useless argument. 

[opus101]

2 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

I didn't, but I inferred that you may want to include speakers, as they are part of a "typical system"

 

 

Speakers are normally passive devices with no mains power connection so I purposely left them out. If active speakers though they should be included in a test system.

[opus101]

14 minutes ago, thumb5 said:

If the DAC output is different depending on whether or not it's connected to an amp or pre-amp, isn't that a fault of the DAC and orthogonal to whether or not the ER does anything - or have I missed something?

 

A DAC's output can be quite different depending on what its connected to. By 'output' though I don't just mean its normal mode (signal) output (that likely won't change) but its common mode output, which will vary according to the common mode impedance presented to its output terminals. This isn't any fault of the DAC itself.