Popular Post Blackmorec Posted December 5, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 5, 2019 Let me simplify the points I was making. Regarding Amir’s tests, he has no idea what’s going into the switches, no idea what’s coming out and no idea what the DAC is adding. All he knows is that what’s coming out of the DAC, where ever it came from, is the same, regardless of what’s connected upstream. If Amir tried to publish these results in a peer reviewed journal he wouldn’t make it past the initial editorial review. The paper would simply be rejected for lack of experimental rigour. sandyk and Teresa 2 Link to comment
thumb5 Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 5 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: The same goes for this testing. I'm sure there are many holes that laymen don't see, but I don't believe those who are out to get UpTone would ever mention them. Fair enough. I'm a layman so I don't see them. But shouldn't there also be experts not "out to get UpTone" who would point them out? Link to comment
thyname Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 9 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: I'm sure there are many holes that laymen don't see, but I don't believe those who are out to get UpTone would ever mention them. You nailed it! Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted December 5, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 5, 2019 1 minute ago, Blackmorec said: Let me simplify the points I was making. Regarding Amir’s tests, he has no idea what’s going into the switches, no idea what’s coming out and no idea what the DAC is adding. All he knows is that what’s coming out of the DAC, where ever it came from, is the same, regardless of what’s connected upstream. If Amir tried to publish these results in a peer reviewed journal he wouldn’t make it past the initial editorial review. The paper would simply be rejected for lack of experimental rigour. I agree 100%. While he is likely not attempting to conduct rigorous tests, his believers certainly use his results as definitive answers and ammunition with which to assassinate anyone who isn't in the cult. OK, maybe that's a bit too harsh. However, the measurements at ASR are created to be used as weapons against those who Amir doesn't have business or personal relationships with. You will never see Amir measure a current production Berkeley Audio Design product, compare it to a $100 DAC that measures equally as good, and excoriate Berkeley Audio Design. It won't happen. Those who admire his work should ask him why he is playing favorites, publishing results that only effect people that aren't in his inner circle. 4est, TheWallsHaveEars, opus101 and 6 others 8 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted December 5, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 5, 2019 2 minutes ago, thumb5 said: Fair enough. I'm a layman so I don't see them. But shouldn't there also be experts not "out to get UpTone" who would point them out? There "should" but they never want to voluntarily walk through a gauntlet of attacks, and they likely have day jobs that consume their time. The best people in all fields are always far too busy to get involved with topics that don't really matter in the big picture. I persoaly know a couple engineers who have poked holes in many things, but it isn't in their best interest to say anything. 4est and Teresa 2 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
pkane2001 Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 6 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: I agree 100%. While he is likely not attempting to conduct rigorous tests, his believers certainly use his results as definitive answers and ammunition with which to assassinate anyone who isn't in the cult. OK, maybe that's a bit too harsh. However, the measurements at ASR are created to be used as weapons against those who Amir doesn't have business or personal relationships with. You will never see Amir measure a current production Berkeley Audio Design product, compare it to a $100 DAC that measures equally as good, and excoriate Berkeley Audio Design. It won't happen. Those who admire his work should ask him why he is playing favorites, publishing results that only effect people that aren't in his inner circle. Chris, your words reveal your bias and you are making some very personal allegation agains Amir. Care to back these up with facts? sandyk 1 -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
mansr Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 18 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: When I say bias, I don't man it in a way that says 2+2=4 for you but not laymen. I mean it in a way where the experts in any field can look at measurements and understand where they can be misleading and they understand how to drum up results that appear to show something major, but in reality it doesn't matter. To the layman THD+N on a spec sheet was as good as gold. To the expert it meant nothing. The experts don't have to let the laymen in on the THD+N joke. Are you brave enough to break ranks and explain the THD+N joke to a non-expert like myself? 18 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: The same goes for this testing. I'm sure there are many holes that laymen don't see, but I don't believe those who are out to get UpTone would ever mention them. The fact that I find some amusement in laughing at their products doesn't mean I'm out to "get" them. 9 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: You will never see Amir measure a current production Berkeley Audio Design product, compare it to a $100 DAC that measures equally as good, and excoriate Berkeley Audio Design. It won't happen. Those who admire his work should ask him why he is playing favorites, publishing results that only effect people that aren't in his inner circle. Just as you are suddenly very protective of your advertiser. sandyk and Ralf11 1 1 Link to comment
Account Closed Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 No one will ever win the "Sounds Good vs Measures Well" debate. Teresa 1 Link to comment
Popular Post thumb5 Posted December 5, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 5, 2019 11 minutes ago, Blackmorec said: Let me simplify the points I was making. Regarding Amir’s tests, he has no idea what’s going into the switches, no idea what’s coming out and no idea what the DAC is adding. All he knows is that what’s coming out of the DAC, where ever it came from, is the same, regardless of what’s connected upstream. If Amir tried to publish these results in a peer reviewed journal he wouldn’t make it past the initial editorial review. The paper would simply be rejected for lack of experimental rigour. What I understood from Amir's description of the test is that he used Roon on a PC to generate a tone which is streamed to a DAC via the switch under test. Bearing that in mind, I am still not clear what you mean by "what's going into the switches, ... what's coming out" - what specifically do you think is not known that is important to the end result? Putting my point more simply: isn't the etherREGEN supposed to make a noticeable (audible) difference, compared to a generic Ethernet switch, in a typical audio streaming configuration? And isn't that what the test method tests for? I'm not claiming that the test has scientific rigour, but it is surely better than nothing. Ralf11 and plissken 1 1 Link to comment
Blackmorec Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 2 minutes ago, bobflood said: No one will ever win the "Sounds Good vs Measures Well" debate. That's very true. But I don’t think that’s quite the debate here. I’m more inclined to suggest, “Sounds Good vs. Measured Badly” 😉 Teresa 1 Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted December 5, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 5, 2019 2 minutes ago, pkane2001 said: Chris, your words reveal your bias and you are making some very personal allegation agains Amir. Care to back these up with facts? I'm not sure what facts I can reveal, but people can put some of the dots together by looking at the evidence that's public. If your company helps Amir make money your products won't be talked about in the same vein and won't have a subjective slime wrapped around the measurements. Seriously, start by asking him why he hasn't measured the Berkeley Audio Design current production products and compared them to his list of inexpensive products. He certainly has access to the products. He was and still may be a dealer for them. He is friends with Michael Ritter from way back in the Pacific Microsonics / Microsoft acquisition days. Ever wonder why he is a big supporter of MQA? The dots are there to be connected. They revolve around money and friendships. Why does this matter? Because it's the tip of the iceberg and oozes into everything done over there. Teresa, Josh Mound and sandyk 1 2 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
mansr Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 4 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: I'm not sure what facts I can reveal, but people can put some of the dots together by looking at the evidence that's public. If your company helps Amir make money your products won't be talked about in the same vein and won't have a subjective slime wrapped around the measurements. Seriously, start by asking him why he hasn't measured the Berkeley Audio Design current production products and compared them to his list of inexpensive products. He certainly has access to the products. He was and still may be a dealer for them. He is friends with Michael Ritter from way back in the Pacific Microsonics / Microsoft acquisition days. Ever wonder why he is a big supporter of MQA? The dots are there to be connected. They revolve around money and friendships. Why does this matter? Because it's the tip of the iceberg and oozes into everything done over there. I have no doubt Amir is as slimy as they get in this regard. He did work for Microsoft, after all. It is still a false conclusion that all his tests are flawed, rigged, or otherwise suspect. Can you point to a test he has published where there is significant deviation compared to the same products tested by others? That would be the smoking gun you seek. His business (and personal) relationships may influence which products he chooses to test, but I have yet to see any evidence that he is dishonest in the reports he does publish. pkane2001 1 Link to comment
plissken Posted December 5, 2019 Author Share Posted December 5, 2019 10 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Is this any industry standard test or was any testing done that conforms to a recognized method of testing switches? The claim is one of audibility. Why wouldn't you test for audibility? mansr 1 Link to comment
Account Closed Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 15 minutes ago, Blackmorec said: That's very true. But I don’t think that’s quite the debate here. I’m more inclined to suggest, “Sounds Good vs. Measured Badly” 😉 Yes, that is the better way to state it for this debate. Thanks PS: There are of course four variations on this and no one will ever win on any of the four except maybe the one where a product sounds great and measures well. Link to comment
Popular Post Blackmorec Posted December 5, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 5, 2019 4 minutes ago, thumb5 said: What I understood from Amir's description of the test is that he used Roon on a PC to generate a tone which is streamed to a DAC via the switch under test. Bearing that in mind, I am still not clear what you mean by "what's going into the switches, ... what's coming out" - what specifically do you think is not known that is important to the end result? Putting my point more simply: isn't the etherREGEN supposed to make a noticeable (audible) difference, compared to a generic Ethernet switch, in a typical audio streaming configuration? And isn't that what the test method tests for? I'm not claiming that the test has scientific rigour, but it is surely better than nothing. Sometimes ‘nothing’ is far better than ‘something’ when that ‘something’ is completed flawed. Firstly, the results published were based on no signal and a test tone. Neither of these 2 conditions are likely to actually create any noise in the signal chain. So a relatively clean signal enters both the TPLink and EtherRegen, challenging neither. Both output the stream to the DAC. The DAC processes the stream, adds its own low level noise and outputs its signal. Amir then measures the DACs noise on both streams and concludes that EtherRegen is no better than the TPLink, whereas the real problem lies with the test protocol and the fact that it actually isn’t testing the switches, rather its measuring the DAC. Frankly the chances of a `TPLInk and an EtherRegen measuring exactly the same must be vanishingly small, given the vastly different technologies, whereas if you were measuring the DAC’s noise, the results would be identical. Go figure. Ralf11 and Teresa 1 1 Link to comment
Solstice380 Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 7 hours ago, Thuaveta said: I'd buy one if the designer and / or a principal at the company that sells it were able to demonstrate they successfully passed a blind listening test organized by a neutral third party. Are you ever able to get that and buy anything, then? Teresa 1 https://audiophilestyle.com/profile/21384-solstice380/?tab=field_core_pfield_3 Link to comment
plissken Posted December 5, 2019 Author Share Posted December 5, 2019 5 hours ago, Blackmorec said: So, either I’m missing something important due to my ignorance UpTone claims the EtherRegen can change the outputs of a DAC. Show me the affected output. Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 23 minutes ago, mansr said: Are you brave enough to break ranks and explain the THD+N joke to a non-expert like myself? I don't really remember the days (as I young and didn't follow this stuff), but back in the day it's my understanding that THD+N became a great marketing tool. Manufacturers would to whatever it took to get the lowest THD+N. If that mean cranking up negative feedback beyond recommended levels, so be it. Laymen had no clue what was going on. 23 minutes ago, mansr said: The fact that I find some amusement in laughing at their products doesn't mean I'm out to "get" them. Agree. That would be a logical fallacy without more evidence. 23 minutes ago, mansr said: Just as you are suddenly very protective of your advertiser. Two wrongs don't make a right. However, I'm not being protective of Alex, he is capable of speaking for himself. I'm addressing an annoyance. I've asked that the discussion be based on information people can use rather than sophomoric name calling. 4 minutes ago, mansr said: I have no doubt Amir is as slimy as they get in this regard. He did work for Microsoft, after all. It is still a false conclusion that all his tests are flawed, rigged, or otherwise suspect. Can you point to a test he has published where there is significant deviation compared to the same products tested by others? That would be the smoking gun you seek. His business (and personal) relationships may influence which products he chooses to test, but I have yet to see any evidence that he is dishonest in the reports he does publish. Correct, all his tests aren't flawed or rigged, but must be taken with grains of salt and evaluated thoroughly. I remember his testing of the microRendu. As flawed as it gets. He later corrected some of it, but he didn't even attempt to unring the bell. He clearly doesn't like Sonore and his subjective wording around his tests and the product were as much evidence as anyone needs. Dishonest is a tricky word in this case. Ignorance, willful ignorance, claimed ignorance, bending honesty to its limits, etc... all seem to play a roll in what is done over there. I look at JA's measurements for Stereophile as not perfect, but a gold standard compared to ASR. When much of the audience has no idea what a measurement means, if it matters, etc... the words around the tests and everything else matters. Teresa 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 11 minutes ago, plissken said: The claim is one of audibility. Why wouldn't you test for audibility? OK excellent. Was the test methodology one rigorous enough or standard so it could determine audibility outside this specific test run on this specific hardware under these specific conditions? That's an honest question. To claim a product is a sham and a company is full of charlatans the testing should be pretty rigorous. Teresa 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
rickca Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 I'm waiting for the deluge of reviews saying I swapped out my previous switch for the EtherREGEN and I didn't hear any difference. Just because someone trusts the integrity of Alex and John doesn't mean they can't be disappointed with the device. Where are those reviews? Teresa 1 Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs i7-6700K/Windows 10 --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 8 minutes ago, plissken said: UpTone claims the EtherRegen can change the outputs of a DAC. Show me the affected output. What if the DAC used for testing has similar technology to the EtherRegen making it immune to its claimed benefits? Does anyone know more about this? Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 Just now, rickca said: Just because someone trusts the integrity of Alex and John doesn't mean they can't be disappointed with the device. Most definitely. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post thumb5 Posted December 5, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 5, 2019 20 minutes ago, Blackmorec said: Sometimes ‘nothing’ is far better than ‘something’ when that ‘something’ is completed flawed. Firstly, the results published were based on no signal and a test tone. Neither of these 2 conditions are likely to actually create any noise in the signal chain. So a relatively clean signal enters both the TPLink and EtherRegen, challenging neither. A test tone is surely a valid signal (not "no signal") and the usual choice for measuring noise and distortion. In what way is this more "clean" and less "challenging" than any other signal, given that we're talking about packetised digital data going into and out of the switches? What noise would be created by using a different, presumably more complex signal? 20 minutes ago, Blackmorec said: Frankly the chances of a `TPLInk and an EtherRegen measuring exactly the same must be vanishingly small, given the vastly different technologies, whereas if you were measuring the DAC’s noise, the results would be identical. Go figure. It's a big stretch to say that the TP-Link and etherREGEN are "vastly different technologies". They are after all both Ethernet switches, which are constrained to provide the same functional behaviour in conformance with the same technical standards. The components of both will be off-the-shelf devices no doubt used in many other applications. The similarities are much stronger than the differences, in my view at least. Yes, indeed, all that shows up in the test is the noise of the DAC because that's all there is. Of course your interpretation of the null result is not the only one: another is that there is no "mess" to be cleaned up upstream of the switches that has any effect on the DAC output, and so both switches do an equally good job of (not) cleaning it up. plissken and mansr 2 Link to comment
mansr Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 5 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: I don't really remember the days (as I young and didn't follow this stuff), but back in the day it's my understanding that THD+N became a great marketing tool. Manufacturers would to whatever it took to get the lowest THD+N. If that mean cranking up negative feedback beyond recommended levels, so be it. Laymen had no clue what was going on. Regular consumers are often victims of numbers races, be it megapixels, gigahertz, or decibels, and you are quite correct in that the THD+N figure can be gamed. That said, I am still lost as to what this has to do with Ethernet switches. Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted December 5, 2019 Share Posted December 5, 2019 Just now, mansr said: Regular consumers are often victims of numbers races, be it megapixels, gigahertz, or decibels, and you are quite correct in that the THD+N figure can be gamed. That said, I am still lost as to what this has to do with Ethernet switches. It's very relevant because whenever numbers and measurements are involved, those with the knowledge are at an advantage over laymen. Laymen have no idea if there are games being played with this measurement or its results. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
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