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UpTone EtherRegen measured. It's a switch.


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5 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

The same goes for this testing. I'm sure there are many holes that laymen don't see, but I don't believe those who are out to get UpTone would ever mention them. 

Fair enough.  I'm a layman so I don't see them.  But shouldn't there also be experts not "out to get UpTone" who would point them out?

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6 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I agree 100%. 

 

While he is likely not attempting to conduct rigorous tests, his believers certainly use his results as definitive answers and ammunition with which to assassinate anyone who isn't in the cult. OK, maybe that's a bit too harsh. However, the measurements at ASR are created to be used as weapons against those who Amir doesn't have business or personal relationships with. 

 

You will never see Amir measure  a current production Berkeley Audio Design product, compare it to a $100 DAC that measures equally as good, and excoriate Berkeley Audio Design. It won't happen. Those who admire his work should ask him why he is playing favorites, publishing results that only effect people that aren't in his inner circle. 


Chris, your words reveal your bias and you are making some very personal allegation agains Amir. Care to back these up with facts?

 

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18 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

When I say bias, I don't man it in a way that says 2+2=4 for you but not laymen. I mean it in a way where the experts in any field can look at measurements and understand where they can be misleading and they understand how to drum up results that appear to show something major, but in reality it doesn't matter. To the layman THD+N on a spec sheet was as good as gold. To the expert it meant nothing. The experts don't have to let the laymen in on the THD+N joke.

Are you brave enough to break ranks and explain the THD+N joke to a non-expert like myself?

 

18 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

The same goes for this testing. I'm sure there are many holes that laymen don't see, but I don't believe those who are out to get UpTone would ever mention them. 

The fact that I find some amusement in laughing at their products doesn't mean I'm out to "get" them.

 

9 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

You will never see Amir measure  a current production Berkeley Audio Design product, compare it to a $100 DAC that measures equally as good, and excoriate Berkeley Audio Design. It won't happen. Those who admire his work should ask him why he is playing favorites, publishing results that only effect people that aren't in his inner circle.

Just as you are suddenly very protective of your advertiser.

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4 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I'm not sure what facts I can reveal, but people can put some of the dots together by looking at the evidence that's public. If your company helps Amir make money your products won't be talked about in the same vein and won't have a subjective slime wrapped around the measurements. 

 

Seriously, start by asking him why he hasn't measured the Berkeley Audio Design current production products and compared them to his list of inexpensive products. He certainly has access to the products. He was and still may be a dealer for them. He is friends with Michael Ritter from way back in the Pacific Microsonics / Microsoft acquisition days. 

 

Ever wonder why he is a big supporter of MQA? The dots are there to be connected. They revolve around money and friendships. 

 

Why does this matter? Because it's the tip of the iceberg and oozes into everything done over there. 

I have no doubt Amir is as slimy as they get in this regard. He did work for Microsoft, after all. It is still a false conclusion that all his tests are flawed, rigged, or otherwise suspect. Can you point to a test he has published where there is significant deviation compared to the same products tested by others? That would be the smoking gun you seek. His business (and personal) relationships may influence which products he chooses to test, but I have yet to see any evidence that he is dishonest in the reports he does publish.

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15 minutes ago, Blackmorec said:

That's very true. But I don’t think that’s quite the debate here.  I’m more inclined to suggest, “Sounds Good vs. Measured Badly” 😉

Yes, that is the better way to state it for this debate.  Thanks

 

PS: There are of course four variations on this and no one will ever win on any of the four except maybe the one where a product sounds great and measures well.

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23 minutes ago, mansr said:

Are you brave enough to break ranks and explain the THD+N joke to a non-expert like myself?

 

I don't really remember the days (as I young and didn't follow this stuff), but back in the day it's my understanding that THD+N became a great marketing tool. Manufacturers would to whatever it took to get the lowest THD+N. If that mean cranking up negative feedback beyond recommended levels, so be it. Laymen had no clue what was going on. 

 

 

23 minutes ago, mansr said:

The fact that I find some amusement in laughing at their products doesn't mean I'm out to "get" them.

 

Agree. That would be a logical fallacy without more evidence. 

 

 

 

23 minutes ago, mansr said:

Just as you are suddenly very protective of your advertiser.

 

Two wrongs don't make a right. However, I'm not being protective of Alex, he is capable of speaking for himself. I'm addressing an annoyance. I've asked that the discussion be based on information people can use rather than sophomoric name calling.

 

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, mansr said:

I have no doubt Amir is as slimy as they get in this regard. He did work for Microsoft, after all. It is still a false conclusion that all his tests are flawed, rigged, or otherwise suspect. Can you point to a test he has published where there is significant deviation compared to the same products tested by others? That would be the smoking gun you seek. His business (and personal) relationships may influence which products he chooses to test, but I have yet to see any evidence that he is dishonest in the reports he does publish.

 

Correct, all his tests aren't flawed or rigged, but must be taken with grains of salt and evaluated thoroughly. I remember his testing of the microRendu. As flawed as it gets. He later corrected some of it, but he didn't even attempt to unring the bell. He clearly doesn't like Sonore and his subjective wording around his tests and the product were as much evidence as anyone needs. 

 

Dishonest is a tricky word in this case. Ignorance, willful ignorance, claimed ignorance, bending honesty to its limits, etc... all seem to play a roll in what is done over there. I look at JA's measurements for Stereophile as not perfect, but a gold standard compared to ASR. When much of the audience has no idea what a measurement means, if it matters, etc... the words around the tests and everything else matters. 

 

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11 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

The claim is one of audibility. Why wouldn't you test for audibility?

 

OK excellent. Was the test methodology one rigorous enough or standard so it could determine audibility outside this specific test run on this specific hardware under these specific conditions?

 

That's an honest question. To claim a product is a sham and a company is full of charlatans the testing should be pretty rigorous. 

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I'm waiting for the deluge of reviews saying I swapped out my previous switch for the EtherREGEN and I didn't hear any difference.  Just because someone trusts the integrity of Alex and John doesn't mean they can't be disappointed with the device.  Where are those reviews?

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5 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I don't really remember the days (as I young and didn't follow this stuff), but back in the day it's my understanding that THD+N became a great marketing tool. Manufacturers would to whatever it took to get the lowest THD+N. If that mean cranking up negative feedback beyond recommended levels, so be it. Laymen had no clue what was going on.

Regular consumers are often victims of numbers races, be it megapixels, gigahertz, or decibels, and you are quite correct in that the THD+N figure can be gamed. That said, I am still lost as to what this has to do with Ethernet switches.

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Just now, mansr said:

Regular consumers are often victims of numbers races, be it megapixels, gigahertz, or decibels, and you are quite correct in that the THD+N figure can be gamed. That said, I am still lost as to what this has to do with Ethernet switches.

It's very relevant because whenever numbers and measurements are involved, those with the knowledge are at an advantage over laymen. Laymen have no idea if there are games being played with this measurement or its results.

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