UpTone EtherRegen measured. It's a switch.

[LowMidHigh]

15 minutes ago, firedog said:

Coordinated attack? Really? It's a review, done the way Amir does every review about every device.

You can say lots of stuff about Amir, but he calls them as he measures them. He didn't even procure the ER,  a reader sent it to him for testing, as often happens.

 

He sometimes reports on multiple devices in a day. I'm not sure why you jump to conspiracy theories. Send him a SOtM switch or whatever, and he will measure it. He measures all sorts of stuff from all sorts of companies, but rarely super expensive stuff, as he can't afford to buy it and owners of such stuff usually don't send him such devices.

 

Either Amir's measurements are relevant or not; either done properly or not. All the  rest is just nonsense speculation and conspiracy theories. 

Amir's measures are not the point, and the entire process is rubbish.

That's what I would expect from genuinely scientific society, which ASR claim to be:

Since you have hundreds of people reporting on SQ improvement when adding the ER, set up a blind test to validate the null hypothesis. It is met, search for an explanation, including the use of measurements.

That would highly constructive and a positive contribution.

But instead, what we get is Amir, who-the-hell-is-he, running some possibly irrelevant test in his basement, followed by his choir of acolytes screaming murder. Over and again, it seems the sole goal of the exercise is to mock and heap abuse on others for being biased and placeboed.

 

To recap, let's first establish a difference can be heard. Then look for an explanation. 

[Thuaveta]

3 minutes ago, LowMidHigh said:

To recap, let's first establish a difference can be heard. 

 

If only such a device existed that would make that possible...

[Iving]

10 minutes ago, LowMidHigh said:

Amir's measures are not the point, and the entire process is rubbish.

That's what I would expect from genuinely scientific society, which ASR claim to be:

Since you have hundreds of people reporting on SQ improvement when adding the ER, set up a blind test to validate the null hypothesis. It is met, search for an explanation, including the use of measurements.

That would highly constructive and a positive contribution.

But instead, what we get is Amir, who-the-hell-is-he, running some possibly irrelevant test in his basement, followed by his choir of acolytes screaming murder. Over and again, it seems the sole goal of the exercise is to mock and heap abuse on others for being biased and placeboed.

 

To recap, let's first establish a difference can be heard. Then look for an explanation. 

 

 

A convergence of top down and bottom up evidence has the best prospect of calming hawks and doves alike.

 

Personalities, dogma, did I say dogma ... we don't get anywhere ... ever ...

[pkane2001]

9 minutes ago, opus101 said:

 

A DAC's output can be quite different depending on what its connected to. By 'output' though I don't just mean its normal mode (signal) output (that likely won't change) but its common mode output, which will vary according to the common mode impedance presented to its output terminals. This isn't any fault of the DAC itself.

 

This is a test that can also be conducted -- with a full complement of equipment in a typical system. Doesn't negate the measurements results already posted, but there's a chance that isolation before the DAC may have some effect downstream of the DAC... or not.

 

[FredM]

20 minutes ago, Thuaveta said:

 

If only such a device existed that would make that possible...

if only such a device exited that would make that possible..

 

[pkane2001]

7 minutes ago, FredM said:

if only such a device exited that would make that possible..

 

 

Would love to see calibration results for your "measurement" device

 

[Iving]

 

[nbpf]

1 hour ago, opus101 said:

I don't have a view on what he should have done without knowing his intention. If I were the one testing the ER I'd not be using an AP on the output of an attached DAC, perhaps an SA (spectrum analyser) with tracking generator would be a starting point.

Assuming that the aim of the test was to support or to confute the claim that replacing a standard switch with an ER switch has a positive impact on the output of DACs, there is no logical flaw in the test. It is of course possible that the DAC(s) used and/or the testing procedure or the instrument downstream the DAC(s) were inappropriate. But, logically speaking, the test is correct. Has anybody by the way tried to reproduce Amir's results?

 

Just to put things in a perspective: I am a very happy user of UpTone Audio products (JS-2 and LPS-1.2) but I do not rely on wired Ethernet connections in my system. I'm following this thread just for the sake of curiosity: whether the ER has a positive impact on the output of a DAC or no impact is something I do not really care. 

[luisma]

This topic is amusing at best

1. Side A - ASR followers, taken numbers into account without considering the testing methodology just the numbers and results

2. Side B - AS loyal followers which will share subjective opinions on which switch sounds best

3. Side C - People with common sense which won't follow either one of the above and just their knowledge and logic. These are the few, I have seen @One and a half and @Miska to state that Amir's methodology might be flawed since he is only playing tones and common sense makes me to concur with them as I kind of think the same based on previous testing he (Amir) have done with other products.

The best analogy I can find in real life related to this topic is religion, some believe this some believe that some believe nothing

 

[pkane2001]

Just now, luisma said:

Amir's methodology might be flawed since he is only playing tones and common sense makes me to concur with them as I kind of think the same based on previous testing he (Amir) have done with other products.

 

Common sense can lead you astray. "Only playing tones" is exactly what a DAC does when playing music. There's nothing wrong with testing using "tones".

[The Computer Audiophile]

6 hours ago, nbpf said:

I do not know and I basically agree with your general feelings about this thread. On the other hand, your question can be easily turned upside down: is there anything obviously wrong in Amir's testing methodology and results? If there is something obviously wrong, I would expect those posters who dismiss the relevance of the tests to flag such deficiencies. In other words, the interesting question here is not whether Uptone Audio offers a generous return policy or not. Also, it doesn't matter whether and why a bet is offered and accepted or rejected. The interesting point is whether the measurements are relevant or not and why. Perhaps the thread could profit from a clearer focus on this question. Just my two cents, of course!

Hi nbpf - While my question can certainly be flipped, it doesn't make much sense to look at it that way. 

 

Using industry standard tests is a way for everyone on Earth, who doesn't have the knowledge to pick apart someone's testing methodology, to evaluate the efficacy of the results. For laymen to find the flaws in his testing methodology is asking a too much. Also, those who appear to completely understand everything there is to know, tend to agree with him on almost everything. This raises an issue of bias.

 

I'm in total agreement with your statement, "The interesting point is whether the measurements are relevant or not and why. Perhaps the thread could profit from a clearer focus on this question." This is what an unbiased topic would seek to uncover, not bash the other side (objective or subjective), or the company producing the product.

 

I hate to say it, but the objective group in this thread has mirrored the same behavior as the subjective group in other threads. Nobody walks away better for having read this thread and nobody has increased their enjoyment of our wonderful hobby because of this thread. Your questions should be the focus. 

[luisma]

Just now, pkane2001 said:

 

Common sense can lead you astray. "Only playing tones" is exactly what a DAC does when playing music. There's nothing wrong with testing using "tones".

I quite differ, common sense based on scientific knowledge IMO leads you right, FYI I was referring to "one" tone not actual music with "full spectrum", and I used the plural "tones" because the tone he played technically has a bandwidth which comprehend other "smaller" sub tones on the slopes.

So yes, since he is not playing music the devices tested and the testing itself is not completely exact

[The Computer Audiophile]

11 minutes ago, luisma said:

This topic is amusing at best

1. Side A - ASR followers, taken numbers into account without considering the testing methodology just the numbers and results

2. Side B - AS loyal followers which will share subjective opinions on which switch sounds best

3. Side C - People with common sense which won't follow either one of the above and just their knowledge and logic. These are the few, I have seen @One and a half and @Miska to state that Amir's methodology might be flawed since he is only playing tones and common sense makes me to concur with them as I kind of think the same based on previous testing he (Amir) have done with other products.

The best analogy I can find in real life related to this topic is religion, some believe this some believe that some believe nothing

 

I agree 100%. Religion and politics are very similar. Both of those lead to toxic discussions quite frequently. 

 

The fundamentalists on each end can drive the discussion and be extremely vocal, but it doesn't make them right or wrong. 

[luisma]

For the record I don't take side with ASR nor AS, I don't own loyalty of opinions to anyone, I use Alex's products and I believe this make a difference on my system which by the way could perfectly be subjective as I have no way to measure it.

 

[luisma]

2 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Religion and politics are very similar. Both of those lead to toxic discussions quite frequently. 

That's another good example and totally agree

[The Computer Audiophile]

Just now, luisma said:

For the record I don't take side with ASR nor AS

Perfect. I hope nobody takes the AS side in anything just because it's AS. Blind faith in anyone or thing is never good. 

[luisma]

Honestly I have to say I am a big believer on "opposite sides" and polarity, ASR vs AS are great sites, I usually participate more here at AS because the pitchfork mob is moderate (ASR is IMO more fanatic and you could waste your time there easily)

[thumb5]

4 minutes ago, luisma said:

So yes, since he is not playing music the devices tested and the testing itself is not completely exact

Is it just me that finds an amusing irony in this criticism of the test method?  At least the test was done and the method and results were published...

[luisma]

8 minutes ago, thumb5 said:

At least the test was done and the method and results were published...

and that is great I am not criticizing Amir at all, I think it is good what he is doing, but if you are going to do scientific testing it has to be "rigorous", don't you think it could have been more strict? unless someone here proves that it doesn't matter and that his testing is absolutely correct (with facts no assumptions) in which case I personally will retract from my "common sense" and "scientific knowledge" statement. Don't get me wrong I have the uttermost respect for what Amir's does it is just he could do that more convincing simulating an actual experiment.

Or the power he is using when testing, does he uses a power conditioner, is it always the same temperature, maybe Alex's switch works well for people subjected to noisy environments but some other people who lives in the middle of nowhere with no noise pollution (EMI/RFI noise) won't benefit from it. I honestly think it is hard to say.

[Blackmorec]

1 hour ago, firedog said:

Don't agree at all.

The ER and all similar devices make the claim that they improve SQ by reducing "noise" going into the DAC which then improves the audible output at the DAC. If the output at the DAC isn't improved, it's irrelevant what the device "does", as it isn't making any difference to SQ, at least not in any audible way  ("improvements at -130db don't count). 

 

Amir's test is correct in concept - testing how the ER  effects the output of the DAC, which is what it claims to do. If you test the ER on it's own and it "reduces noise", that doesn't prove what we need to know. What if the existence or non existence of that "noise" has no effect on the functioning of the DAC, in spite of what Uptone and others claim? What if, as many claim, all well designed modern DACs are basically immune to the effects of the noise Uptone claims the ER reduces? 

 

 Note Amir  also tested a second DAC which he knows to have issues and that even he says was helped a bit by the USB Regen; this DAC also showed no difference in output with the ER attached in the chain. 

 

If what you are saying is true, how come manufacturers of such devices can't find DACs that show improvement when these devices are in line? If the devices do what they claim, it should be easy to find multiple DACs that have an output improved by the device.

How does the ER affect the output of the DAC if its the DAC that’s creating the noise? The ER is upstream of the DAC so can only improve what comes into the DAC.  If what comes into the DAC is nothing and the DAC then adds this low level noise, how does Amir’s test detect that? As far as I can see, it doesn’t. 

For Amir’s test, the ER and the TPLink could have been removing loads of noise, but the input to the switches was never checked. Based on Amir’s tests, as far as i can see, he actually has no idea where the noise he’s measuring is actually coming from. 

Again I’m no expert in these matters but if I were looking to see if a device removed noise, i would inject a known quantity of noise into the device and look what comes out. I would also check to see what the noise contribution is of other components downstream of the device I want to measure.  Without knowing much about the electronics, there’s still a logic to testing in order to rule out confounding variables. In the case of Amir’s test, if it was the DAC that was introducing noise, then the noise from the DAC’s output would be identical regardless of what was connected upstream and that’s exactly what the results show. Uncannily so.   

[mansr]

4 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Using industry standard tests is a way for everyone on Earth, who doesn't have the knowledge to pick apart someone's testing methodology, to evaluate the efficacy of the results.

The measurements taken by Amir are more or less standard in assessing the the performance of audio equipment. In this particular instance, he didn't run a full battery of tests. I don't know why, but the omitted ones cover areas I'd deem least likely to be affected by the switch.

 

For networking equipment, there are extensive test protocols to validate conformance to the IEEE 802.11 standard (Ethernet). I guess you might call those "industry standard." Amir did not test the ER in this manner. Why? Most likely because the properties attributed to the device are not "industry standard," so a standard test could neither confirm nor refute the claims.

 

16 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Also, those who appear to completely understand everything there is to know, tend to agree with him on almost everything. This raises an issue of bias.

If the assembled experts all agree, why is that "bias"? Is it not at least as likely that they simply are right, what with being experts and all?

[Iving]

2 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I agree 100%. Religion and politics are very similar. Both of those lead to toxic discussions quite frequently. 

 

The fundamentalists on each end can drive the discussion and be extremely vocal, but it doesn't make them right or wrong. 

 

If we start by taking out personalities (not with weapons or anything) as the focus of our approach;

moreover, as individuals relinquish being "right" about anything at all

- but rather -

simply and relentlessly, in a collegiate fashion, seek (bottom up and top down) common ground in order to progress towards some kind of "truth" - we may accomplish something worthwhile.

 

Measurements and their interpretation - Yes.

Blind listening tests and their interpretation - Yes.

Psycho-acoustics both mechanical and "central" (CNS) - Yes.

Good psychology - Yes.

Good philosophy - Yes.

 

I'll stick my neck out and say we have seen very little of the last three anywhere on the usual forums - certainly as relates to the EtherREGEN anyway.

 

It's rare that anything worthwhile in religion or politics is achieved by being "right" about anything. Or proving the "other" party wrong.

 

We are at our best when we proffer or assimilate the kind of "truth" which, like the best music, is convincing enough to raise goosebumps.

 

Then little else seems to matter.

[thumb5]

5 minutes ago, Blackmorec said:

Again I’m no expert in these matters but if I were looking to see if a device removed noise, i would inject a known quantity of noise into the device and look what comes out.

Indeed.  What kind of noise would you propose to inject into the switch, and how would you generate it?

[skatbelt]

32 minutes ago, luisma said:

This topic is amusing at best

1. Side A - ASR followers, taken numbers into account without considering the testing methodology just the numbers and results

2. Side B - AS loyal followers which will share subjective opinions on which switch sounds best

3. Side C - People with common sense which won't follow either one of the above and just their knowledge and logic. These are the few, I have seen @One and a half and @Miska to state that Amir's methodology might be flawed since he is only playing tones and common sense makes me to concur with them as I kind of think the same based on previous testing he (Amir) have done with other products.

The best analogy I can find in real life related to this topic is religion, some believe this some believe that some believe nothing

 

 

I thought the EtherREGEN only had an A and B Side.... 🙃

[The Computer Audiophile]

11 minutes ago, mansr said:

If the assembled experts all agree, why is that "bias"? Is it not at least as likely that they simply are right, what with being experts and all?

When I say bias, I don't man it in a way that says 2+2=4 for you but not laymen. I mean it in a way where the experts in any field can look at measurements and understand where they can be misleading and they understand how to drum up results that appear to show something major, but in reality it doesn't matter. To the layman THD+N on a spec sheet was as good as gold. To the expert it meant nothing. The experts don't have to let the laymen in on the THD+N joke.

 

The same goes for this testing. I'm sure there are many holes that laymen don't see, but I don't believe those who are out to get UpTone would ever mention them.