A proposal: the Objectivist Audio Review magazine

[The Computer Audiophile]

37 minutes ago, Jud said:

On topic again: Yes, it would be nice to have something devoted to measurements.  Do you think this would be entertaining/interesting enough to stay afloat?  (Don't know what Archimago is doing about finances, and I'm supposing the range of equipment available to any one individual who'd want to do this is limited.)  Regarding blind testing, that doesn't feel terribly valuable to me.  I agree that I'd prefer to see measurements.

 

If I could find someone in the US to do measurements for a reasonable amount, I'd have a measurement section here at CA. I'd love to publish measurements of all the products we review because I find value in them as do others. I don't view them as the final word for my equipment selections, but they are neat to digest. 

 

P.S. I'd even love to publish measurement of products we haven't reviewed.

[mansr]

42 minutes ago, lmitche said:

The objectivists here never seem to try anything, let alone measure something they have tried and publish the results.

Does constructing a USB de-evilizer count?

[lmitche]

14 minutes ago, mansr said:

Does constructing a USB de-evilizer count?

Mansr, your Sox contributions were greatly appreciated. I don't remember a USB de-evilizer from you but you were here long before me.

 

As such, I don't think of you as an objectivtist, more like an good natured obstructionist, with a very dry sense of humour. ?

[mansr]

7 minutes ago, lmitche said:

I don't remember a USB de-evilizer from you but you were here long before me.

See here:

 

[lmitche]

1 minute ago, mansr said:

See here:

 

I missed that!  Way cool.  I look forward to learning more.

[Superdad]

5 hours ago, crenca said:

Thankfully internet forums such as this one have created a communication network for proactive consumers, such that the old guard review establishment is no longer THE source of information.

 

Indeed!

 

[And my very modest firm is proof that ethically-minded, openly communicative firms can thrive based solely on users' word-of-keyboard experience sharing.  I've never purchased a single advertisement, print or on-line.]

[Rt66indierock]

1 hour ago, christopher3393 said:

 

Is taking advertising generally harmful to the critical quality of an audiophile mag.? Is suspicion of bias the greatest problem with accepting (or even soliciting) advertising? Is this more an issue of reader perception than of actually affecting reviews with biases?

 

 A somewhat related issue: what are the pros and cons of long term loans? Do these usually go hand in hand with advertising?

 

You mean why are most reviews the same? It’s simple.

[crenca]

2 hours ago, Jud said:

 

Apologies for the momentary OT: That's why if I were using that DAC, I'd do the DSD modulation outboard.  I realize you like using room EQ software.  Don't know if A+ will work with that and upsample the result to DSD yet, but HQPlayer might.  That (convolution and DSD upsampling combined in HQP) requires a fairly stout computer.

 

On topic again: Yes, it would be nice to have something devoted to measurements.  Do you think this would be entertaining/interesting enough to stay afloat?  (Don't know what Archimago is doing about finances, and I'm supposing the range of equipment available to any one individual who'd want to do this is limited.)  Regarding blind testing, that doesn't feel terribly valuable to me.  I agree that I'd prefer to see measurements.

 

What I'd really love to see are reviews that are critical and entertainingly written (that was The Absolute Sound for about 5 minutes in the early days before it took advertising).  I don't care about subjectivity.  As with the subjective threads on this site, you learn soon enough whose taste you share/trust, and whose you disagree with.

 

The other thing that would be valuable to me is entertaining and informative explanation and/or deconstruction of manufacturer marketing.  Does the circuitry in that amp or its class of operation make a difference to anything, and if so what?

 

That's a lot of expertise in service to a very small niche market of audiophiles, so difficult for me to imagine it happening.

 

Interesting list.  I would like to see:

 

1) Real blinded/unsighted reviews.  Yes yes, this would be difficult, with real technicalities to be factored (e.g. if comparing 3 power amps, if one has an OI significantly different, how does that effect speaker choice and results?).  Cables would naturally be "easier" to pull of than say HP's, but the goal remains the same.

 

2) Real "shootouts" where 3 or more similar products (price, technicals, etc.) are compared unsighted.  A winner and a loser will be the usual result, even when explaining the subjective "it depends on what you like" caveats.

 

3) Writing has to be readable, relevant, etc.  "Entertaining" is just a bonus.

 

 

 

 

[crenca]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

If I could find someone in the US to do measurements for a reasonable amount, I'd have a measurement section here at CA. I'd love to publish measurements of all the products we review because I find value in them as do others. I don't view them as the final word for my equipment selections, but they are neat to digest. 

 

P.S. I'd even love to publish measurement of products we haven't reviewed.

 

Measurements are HARD.  It takes real time, money, equipment, methodology, expertise, etc. etc.  On top of all that, the meaning of measurements are also hard to get right, and at the risk of sounding like a junior subjectivist neither obvious nor necessarily intuitive.  Now, the old guard and status quo defenders take these truths and wrongly argue that measurements are somehow misleading or irrelevant, but they are truths nonetheless. 

[Ralf11]

Measurements interfere with the propagation of woo-woo fields

[mansr]

25 minutes ago, crenca said:

Measurements are HARD.  It takes real time, money, equipment, methodology, expertise, etc. etc.

Time is definitely an issue. Even if you know exactly what to measure and how, collecting and analysing all the data can still take the better part of a day.

[wgscott]

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

As such, I don't think of you as an objectivtist 

 

Perhaps it is time to move beyond the silly labels that no one can even manage to spell, let alone define.

[mansr]

1 hour ago, lmitche said:

I don't think of you as an objectivtist, more like an good natured obstructionist

I prefer "objectionist."

[Ralf11]

The Audio Objectionist - has a nice ring to it

[kumakuma]

12 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

The Audio Objectionist - has a nice ring to it

 

Better than The Objectionable Audioist

[crenca]

34 minutes ago, mansr said:

Time is definitely an issue. Even if you know exactly what to measure and how, collecting and analysing all the data can still take the better part of a day.

 

Just one of a host of issues.  Again, at the risk of sounding like a subjectivist, what do they mean might be the most contentious.  Does a certain noise floor level indicate a "black" background?  Does a certain distortion measurement translate into this or that level of "clarity" and "detail"?  This is where experience, calm/professional detachment, hard work at blinding and other forms of bias mitigation all come into play.  This is where the subjective and objective divide gets revealed as the reductionist simplification for which it is and the two meet in the middle so to speak....cats and dogs living together...

 

That said, since the Audiophiledom we have is so heavily skewed to a radical subjectivism that relies almost exclusively on the industry insider sighted review, we are not even close to such a thing.

[beerandmusic]

3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

If I could find someone in the US to do measurements for a reasonable amount, I'd have a measurement section here at CA. I'd love to publish measurements of all the products we review because I find value in them as do others. I don't view them as the final word for my equipment selections, but they are neat to digest. 

 

P.S. I'd even love to publish measurement of products we haven't reviewed.

 

I don't know if

Archimago's Musings

is in USA or not (or why that matters), but he seems to do it as a hobby, and has frequented here on occasion (so I am sure he may be happy to post here for benefit both of his site and yours)? 

 

I have always found him unbiased and have a lot of trust in him.

 

[Sal1950]

3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

If I could find someone in the US to do measurements for a reasonable amount, I'd have a measurement section here at CA. I'd love to publish measurements of all the products we review because I find value in them as do others. I don't view them as the final word for my equipment selections, but they are neat to digest. 

 

P.S. I'd even love to publish measurement of products we haven't reviewed.

Why don't you talk to Amir and work out a deal?

Stereo Review and Audio both worked with outside labs. Stereophile has Atkinson but now that can be a suspect relationship.

[duxservit]

29 minutes ago, Sal1950 said:

Why don't you talk to Amir and work out a deal?

Stereo Review and Audio both worked with outside labs. Stereophile has Atkinson but now that can be a suspect relationship.

 

Agree.  Amir is already making significant contributions to the audiophile world.

 

One way to help is to loan your gear to Amir to measure. 

 

 

[GUTB]

Lets be savagely real. "Objectvists" don't necessarily want measurements -- Stereophile provides that. What they want is non-audiophile media to consume that has the flavor or color of audiophilia.

 

What's the difference between high end performance and low-end? The subjective experience -- so just eliminate the subjective experience and pretend to be audiophiles.

[Milt99]

For one thing, Amir's main job is not measuring DACs he owns Madrona Digital in Bellevue Wa.

From reading ASR and having met him more than once during his days a Microsoft, he does this because he's interested in it and I seriously doubt he'd want to have any kind of formal commitment.

Plus measuring gear for a flamingly subjectivist site like this just doesn't add up to me.

 

Someone name me a going web site or publication that does ABX blind testing?

I don't know of one and I've been around the Internet since dirt.

Not cost effective or even feasible, that's why no one's ever done it.

 

Personally, I trust like 2 reviewers who review gear that doesn't come with measurements.

Robert Harley & Kal Rubinson.

 

I do have to say I don't get the animus for Amir's measurements except that folks have their own bias like owning gear that measures like crap or people who make gear that measures like crap.

We all have our biases, me included.

To not have bias is not to be a human.

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 hour ago, Sal1950 said:

Why don't you talk to Amir and work out a deal?

Stereo Review and Audio both worked with outside labs. Stereophile has Atkinson but now that can be a suspect relationship.

That would be like Stereo Review getting its measurements done by Audio magazine. Sounds a bit strange to me. 

[crenca]

7 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Let's. not make this thread another referendum on ASR/Amir. We've beat that horse too many times around here. 

 

Just as a reminder from our host ?

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, Milt99 said:

a flamingly subjectivist site like this

Huh? Perhaps you’ve been gone for a while or are just ignoring our articles by mitchco and archimago. 

 

I prefer to offer both subjective and objective points of view. 

[beerandmusic]

22 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Huh? Perhaps you’ve been gone for a while or are just ignoring our articles by mitchco and archimago. 

 

I prefer to offer both subjective and objective points of view. 

 

he obviously is asleep......you don't even need to read the articles to know this site has equal amounts of subjective and objective points of view....around every corner on this site i enjoy reading all of the fights between the subjective and objective points of view on this site....

 

personally i am objective first, but i do believe that that many of those with objective views are in error on what can be heard that is beyond man's feeble mind....but i would prefer to buy something that measures good than what is expensive with good marketing.

 

I would love to know "best bang for the buck' based on measurements.

Also I am not sure how things like soundstage and depth are measured?

Those are the characteristics i like the most, but are they measurable?