ISO Regen performance Improvement Cheap!

[marce]

A few links and a screen shot of my EMC folder from my collection of electronic based data, should provide plenty of information regarding EMC....

http://www.hottconsultants.com/pdf_files/APEC-2002.pdf

http://www.analog.com/media/en/training-seminars/tutorials/MT-095.pdf

https://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/anablog/4309627/EMC-RFI-SI-consultant-Henry-Ott-has-a-new-book

http://www.hottconsultants.com/pdf_files/aug-ptk.pdf

http://www.compliance-club.com/archive/keitharmstrong/design_techniques1.html

https://incompliancemag.com/article/complying-with-the-eus-emc-directive-without-3rd-party-testing/

http://www.vicorpower.com/dc-dc-filters/qpi

 

[AnotherSpin]

7 hours ago, Quadman said:

 

 

Well I just put my cat 8 in today replacing 3-1M runs of uGreen cat 7 (round).  The cat 8 I cut to the just needed length which in every case but one was shorter that the cat 7.  So I hope you are wrong otherwise I may be stepping back.  First sonic impressions I will report on tomorrow.

 

I used Supra CAT 7 50 cm length initially for first trial and later cut it to about 35 cm length while was doing more permanent connection. In second case leads were soldered directly to cheap psu plate. It seem to me the sound became little better after shortening the cable (more tight and darker bottom, etc.) but it may be caused by better connection with no connectors on one side.

[mansr]

9 hours ago, Bricki said:

? I may very well have misunderstood ... I'm not going to pretend to know what I'm talking about and I'm sure that you have infinitely more knowledge than I do... I'm just looking for a reason for why longer runs of Ethernet cables sound better than shorter ones when used as dc cables in my system. ?

Let me explain a bit. When a twisted pair is subjected to external electromagnetic interference, both wires pick up the same amount of noise. That's what common-mode means; it is common to both wires in the pair. The rejection of this noise happens in the receiver, not the cable. This works because the signal is the difference voltage between the two wires. Adding an equal noise voltage (relative to ground) to both wires doesn't alter the difference. A longer cable will pick up more noise, but the differential voltage (the signal) still remains unchanged and can be just as easily detected by the receiver.

 

That's how differential signalling works. However, what you guys are doing is something else. An Ethernet cable consists of four differential pairs. Power over Ethernet connects both wires in one pair to the power supply negative side and both wires in another pair to the positive side. The benefits of differential signalling over twisted pairs don't really come into play here.

[opus101]

11 hours ago, Bricki said:

I'm just looking for a reason for why longer runs of Ethernet cables sound better than shorter ones when used as dc cables in my system.

 

A possible reason (just conjecture at present) is that the longer the cable, the better it is at being a common-mode choke. But I can't help thinking that a dedicated CM choke will do considerably better than an ethernet cable.

 

Has anyone tried battery powering the IR to see if the improvements exceed the gains with the cat7 cable? That might shine more light on what's going on here.

[Theobetley]

I use a battery to power both a microRendu and a switch and when I switched from regular power cable to an ethernet cable I got the same results reported in this thread.

[totoxio]

7 hours ago, marce said:

A few links and a screen shot of my EMC folder from my collection of electronic based data, should provide plenty of information regarding EMC....

http://www.hottconsultants.com/pdf_files/APEC-2002.pdf

http://www.analog.com/media/en/training-seminars/tutorials/MT-095.pdf

https://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/anablog/4309627/EMC-RFI-SI-consultant-Henry-Ott-has-a-new-book

http://www.hottconsultants.com/pdf_files/aug-ptk.pdf

http://www.compliance-club.com/archive/keitharmstrong/design_techniques1.html

https://incompliancemag.com/article/complying-with-the-eus-emc-directive-without-3rd-party-testing/

http://www.vicorpower.com/dc-dc-filters/qpi

 

This is great and useful information. Thank you!

[marce]

2 hours ago, opus101 said:

 

A possible reason (just conjecture at present) is that the longer the cable, the better it is at being a common-mode choke. But I can't help thinking that a dedicated CM choke will do considerably better than an ethernet cable.

 

Has anyone tried battery powering the IR to see if the improvements exceed the gains with the cat7 cable? That might shine more light on what's going on here.

Slapping a scope on the end of the various wire configurations would be a better bet.

[mansr]

Just now, marce said:

Slapping a scope on the end of the various wire configurations would be a better bet.

The intersection if people with scopes and people with fancy cables is rather small.

[Quadman]

Ok so last night was my first night listening to a all Cat 8 DC power cable chain in my system.  Moving from my custom PoE's (photo of back on page 4 of thread) and 1m Ugreen round cat 7 cable.  I cut the Cat 8 for just the length needed and due to the stiffness of this cable I ended longer than a more flexible cable would have but I was still shorter than the 1m Ugreen.  I generally direct connected to each PSU with the screw terminals that solder to the PCB's, like what Alexy supplies with the 1A LT3045 boards and then used a CUI barrel connector soldered to the Cat 8 to connect to my devices.  Here's a photo.  The longer runs got the JSSG ground wire before installing.

 

FYI- I upsample all music to DSD512 with HQP using Polysinc XTR mp 2s, with DSD5v2 filter to a T+A dac 8DSD

 

I selected a showoff playlist I have on Roon and selected shuffle, the very first song was a acoustic live recording and the shear size and presence of the audience startled me.  It shouldn't have, I spend an average of 100 hours per month listening to this system for the past 4 years via digital, it is really good, very transparent and very dynamic with a huge stage, but never the less I was startled by the presence and realness of the audience.  For the entire evening I listened to very familiar tracks I was enjoying myself, but I couldn't quite put my finger on what this was doing different.  The cat 7 setup was also very transparent, dynamic and threw a huge stage and clearly was better than before the PoE discovery, but the cat 8 was different, I couldn't pin what it was that caused this.  Then around 1:30AM I played my most frequent tracks some live, some acoustic, some rock and blues.  I then realized on these tracks that I have heard several hundred times that the speakers were just not there, not once did I hear a sound that came near a speaker the sound was behind and to the sides of the speakers depth went well beyond my back wall, it was as if the sound came from my acoustic panels behind the speakers.  Now the system came really close to this level before but this was just a bit different more real in an eerie life like kind of a way.  Transparency was not much different, I ended up playing about 1 click down on the volume knob with cat 8, depth and width really was not that much deeper and wider but this FELT different, more organic, more real.  All the audiophile adjectives were there but the feeling was real.

 

Now I have big speakers about 5 ft tall, I sit 8.5 ft from each speaker, the speakers are 8.5 ft from the back wall to the front of the speaker.  Bass plays flat down to 25 hz I EQ the bass only with a digital parametric equalizer which we set up using Clio 8.53 software.  Generally I am plus or minus 5db from 25-20K Htz and plus or minus 2-3db from 250-17K Htz.   Hard to believe these big speakers can disappear so effectively like they did last night.  Here's a photo for your reference.

 

8.5 ft away and it was like they were not there on a level I have never heard before, which by the way was already pretty impressive (is there an echo :D).  So my next move after friends come for a few days and I finish the BBQ contest we compete in later this month I will try the full Gotham Gac 4 ultra pro Larry says will even top this.  I ask can it really get any better?  Well it has so far in each PoE step up.  Big thanks to Bi-Polar Rob for the discovery (tho his other half was wrong saying the cat 8 was a step back), and to the community for sharing all their experiments and results with us followers.  Thank you!!

 

[Abtr]

13 hours ago, marce said:

A common mode choke can very effectively....

 

Thanks. But for an ethernet cable to function as a common mode choke filter, POE should use the two wires of a twisted pair for DC power and return connections, i.e., solid colored wires for (positive) power and dashed white wires for (negative) return. The POE adapters don't do this. As @mansr stated above, they connect both wires in one differential pair to the negative side and both wires in another pair to the positive side of the DC power supply.

 

So, it seems that most mechanisms thought to be at work in tightly twisted pairs (e.g., common mode noise rejection, impedance matching of the two conductors which helps common mode noise rejection, reduction of inductance and inter-wire capacitance) don't apply to POE.

 

Perhaps the twisting of two conductors for each DC connection cancels out the magnetic field that a single wire would generate around itself, thus preventing it from inducing noise into the other twisted pair and/or other audio gear. I wonder how relevant this can be for a DC power cable/connection?

[totoxio]

2 hours ago, Quadman said:

Then around 1:30AM I played my most frequent tracks some live, some acoustic, some rock and blues.  I then realized on these tracks that I have heard several hundred times that the speakers were just not there, not once did I hear a sound that came near a speaker the sound was behind and to the sides of the speakers depth went well beyond my back wall, it was as if the sound came from my acoustic panels behind the speakers.  Now the system came really close to this level before but this was just a bit different more real in an eerie life like kind of a way.  Transparency was not much different, I ended up playing about 1 click down on the volume knob with cat 8, depth and width really was not that much deeper and wider but this FELT different, more organic, more real.  All the audiophile adjectives were there but the feeling was real.

 

 

 

What cable length were you using at 1:30 a.m.?

[Quadman]

Same that I used all evening.  30" from S11 to LT3045 boards, before was 1m uGreen, 13" from Belleson PSU to regen before was 1m ugreen, 38" from S11 to lt3045 boards before was about the same, 1m ugreen.

[totoxio]

2 minutes ago, Quadman said:

Same that I used all evening.  30" from S11 to LT3045 boards, before was 1m uGreen, 13" from Belleson PSU to regen before was 1m ugreen, 38" from S11 to lt3045 boards before was about the same, 1m ugreen.

 

Thanks. Great post BTW.

[tims]

3 hours ago, Quadman said:

Ok so last night was my first night listening to a all Cat 8 DC power cable chain in my system.  Moving from my custom PoE's (photo of back on page 4 of thread) and 1m Ugreen round cat 7 cable.  I cut the Cat 8 for just the length needed and due to the stiffness of this cable I ended longer than a more flexible cable would have but I was still shorter than the 1m Ugreen.  I generally direct connected to each PSU with the screw terminals that solder to the PCB's, like what Alexy supplies with the 1A LT3045 boards and then used a CUI barrel connector soldered to the Cat 8 to connect to my devices.  Here's a photo.  The longer runs got the JSSG ground wire before installing.

 

FYI- I upsample all music to DSD512 with HQP using Polysinc XTR mp 2s, with DSD5v2 filter to a T+A dac 8DSD

 

I selected a showoff playlist I have on Roon and selected shuffle, the very first song was a acoustic live recording and the shear size and presence of the audience startled me.  It shouldn't have, I spend an average of 100 hours per month listening to this system for the past 4 years via digital, it is really good, very transparent and very dynamic with a huge stage, but never the less I was startled by the presence and realness of the audience.  For the entire evening I listened to very familiar tracks I was enjoying myself, but I couldn't quite put my finger on what this was doing different.  The cat 7 setup was also very transparent, dynamic and threw a huge stage and clearly was better than before the PoE discovery, but the cat 8 was different, I couldn't pin what it was that caused this.  Then around 1:30AM I played my most frequent tracks some live, some acoustic, some rock and blues.  I then realized on these tracks that I have heard several hundred times that the speakers were just not there, not once did I hear a sound that came near a speaker the sound was behind and to the sides of the speakers depth went well beyond my back wall, it was as if the sound came from my acoustic panels behind the speakers.  Now the system came really close to this level before but this was just a bit different more real in an eerie life like kind of a way.  Transparency was not much different, I ended up playing about 1 click down on the volume knob with cat 8, depth and width really was not that much deeper and wider but this FELT different, more organic, more real.  All the audiophile adjectives were there but the feeling was real.

 

Now I have big speakers about 5 ft tall, I sit 8.5 ft from each speaker, the speakers are 8.5 ft from the back wall to the front of the speaker.  Bass plays flat down to 25 hz I EQ the bass only with a digital parametric equalizer which we set up using Clio 8.53 software.  Generally I am plus or minus 5db from 25-20K Htz and plus or minus 2-3db from 250-17K Htz.   Hard to believe these big speakers can disappear so effectively like they did last night.  Here's a photo for your reference.

 

8.5 ft away and it was like they were not there on a level I have never heard before, which by the way was already pretty impressive (is there an echo :D).  So my next move after friends come for a few days and I finish the BBQ contest we compete in later this month I will try the full Gotham Gac 4 ultra pro Larry says will even top this.  I ask can it really get any better?  Well it has so far in each PoE step up.  Big thanks to Bi-Polar Rob for the discovery (tho his other half was wrong saying the cat 8 was a step back), and to the community for sharing all their experiments and results with us followers.  Thank you!!

 

Thanks for the review, Quadman.

I've looked at your posts on page 4 but there's a lot of info there and I'm not sure what twisted pairs/wires you actually used (in this cat 8 cable) for the DC voltage?

Any chance you could go over this again?

Thanks.

[Quadman]

40 minutes ago, tims said:

Any chance you could go over this again?

Near the bottom of page 4 I have photos of the wires I made for custom PoE and then the final assembly of PoE.  I used these Poe's with Cat 7 (ugreen round 1m) essentially replacing the cheap eBay and amazon PoE's everyone else was using.  This made an improvement over the cheap PoE but at a cost of a lot of labor and time. This stayed in my system until last night when I pulled all custom PoE's from system and all cat 7 and replaced with a direct wired cat 8 set up.  So there now is  NO PoE's in my system just direct wired cat 8 (I bought bulk cat 8).  Now it could be argued that I should open the cat 7 and direct wire like cat 8 and compare and maybe some day I will, First I want to try the Gotham Larry talks about, as my whole interconnect set up in my system has been gotham Gac 2v1 since the early 00's and that stuff hangs with cables costing thousands.  I notice Gotham has a ultra pro gac 2 that would make a wicked good IC and be easier to work than Gac 4/1.  Always something to do.

 

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, Quadman said:

Near the bottom of page 4 I have photos of the wires I made for custom PoE and then the final assembly of PoE.  I used these Poe's with Cat 7 (ugreen round 1m) essentially replacing the cheap eBay and amazon PoE's everyone else was using.  This made an improvement over the cheap PoE but at a cost of a lot of labor and time. This stayed in my system until last night when I pulled all custom PoE's from system and all cat 7 and replaced with a direct wired cat 8 set up.  So there now is  NO PoE's in my system just direct wired cat 8 (I bought bulk cat 8).  Now it could be argued that I should open the cat 7 and direct wire like cat 8 and compare and maybe some day I will, First I want to try the Gotham Larry talks about, as my whole interconnect set up in my system has been gotham Gac 2v1 since the early 00's and that stuff hangs with cables costing thousands.  I notice Gotham has a ultra pro gac 2 that would make a wicked good IC and be easier to work than Gac 4/1.  Always something to do.

 

Quadman, the sound qualities you describe in your excellent post are very much what I experience here. I have finished conversion to the Gotham Gac 4/1 ultra pro for DC and Supra cat 8 on the network. My Wilson's (may he RIP) are setup in a 9 foot equilateral triangle just like your speakers, and have totally and completely disappeared in a vast deep, tall and wide sound stage. Sometimes a sound stage seems zoomed in creating what I call " big head" syndrome. That is not happening here. It's more like attending a concert with the room's ambience all around. Sizes seem natural and very 3 dimensional. I would add there is much more harmonic content and detail than ever, with the subtle beauty of the instruments and voices shining through. I find myself turning my head to focus on a particular artist on the stage.

 

Like you, the best way I can describe the SQ is that it sounds live. I am lucky in that I attend a live performance once or twice a month. These could be rock, jazz or classical performances. I recently sat in the front row of a Cowboy Junkies concert, outside the enhanced sound area, and heard Margot sing Misguided Angel. The live version of this same song on the Trinity Revisited album is spine tingling, along with the addition of Natalie Merchant on the vocals. It sounds very much live here at home including the opening harmonica, mandolin and all.

 

I have never heard music reproduced like this before. Some combination of the new cable plant, and the latest Hqplayer version, ISO Regen and lps-1s has put things entirely over the top.

 

 

[Quadman]

8 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Sometimes a sound stage seems zoomed in creating what I call " big head" syndrome. That is not happening here. It's more like attending a concert with the room's ambience all around. Sizes seem natural and very 3 dimensional. I would add there is much more harmonic content than ever, with the subtle beauty of the instruments and voices shining through. I find myself turning my head to focus on a particular artist on the stage.

 

Like you, the best way I can describe the SQ is that it sounds live. I am lucky in that I attend a live performance once or twice a month. These could be rock, jazz or classical performances. I recently sat in the front row of a Cowboy Junkies concert, outside the enhanced sound area, and heard Margot sing Misguided Angel. The live version of this same song on the Trinity Revisited album is spine tingling, along with the addition of Natalie Merchant on the vocals. It sounds very much live here at home including the opening harmonica, mandolin and all.

 

I have never heard music reproduced like this before.

Larry, thank you for putting in words what my audio vocabulary couldn't.  Yep the exact same thing here, many times I lean forward to see the performer on the far right or left of the stage too.  Life, live no reproduction just pure musical bliss.  I'll have to play that Junkies tune. The cut that started it last night was Travis Tritt Live at the Franklin in Nashville,  just him and a guitar on the stage and a few thousand enthusiastic friends, Modern Day Bonnie and Clyde.

 

I was unaware that David passed, years ago I had his watt puppy 3/2, so sad, he was still young, but cancer does not discriminate.

[Ralf11]

8 hours ago, mansr said:

The intersection of people with scopes and people with fancy cables is rather small.

 

 

you're on fire today !!

[sandyk]

4 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

 

you're on fire today !!

 

They used to burn Witches too !

[lmitche]

19 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

They used to burn Witches too !

Just heading out for an ice cream cone from Goody Basset's.

 

You can read about her here:

 

https://www.greenwichtime.com/news/article/Witch-executions-occurred-in-Stratford-Fairfield-760316.php

[opus101]

10 hours ago, marce said:

Slapping a scope on the end of the various wire configurations would be a better bet.

 

Why? You reckon a scope can resolve CM noise differences?

[bit01]

It is possible that  residual differential AC noise on the DC +ve is further reduced (filtered) via crosstalk to -ve pairs via coupling of the individual shields. Somewhat demo'd by this little experiment (no affiliation).

https://dcc.ligo.org/public/0060/T1100264/001/Cable Crosstalk Test_v1.pdf

 

Alpha Wire 2214C

http://www.alphawire.com/Products/Cable/Alpha-Essentials/Communication-and-Control-Cable/2214C?popup=pdf

Alpha Wire 6054C

http://www.alphawire.com/Products/Cable/Alpha-Essentials/Communication-and-Control-Cable/6054C?popup=pdf

 

 

Some folks report better SQ by simply inserting the CAT7/8 into the existing wiring, thus suggesting a resulting noise reduction.

 

[totoxio]

17 minutes ago, bit01 said:

It is possible that  residual differential AC noise on the DC +ve is further reduced (filtered) via crosstalk to -ve pairs via coupling of the individual shields. Somewhat demo'd by this little experiment (no affiliation).

https://dcc.ligo.org/public/0060/T1100264/001/Cable Crosstalk Test_v1.pdf

 

Some folks report better SQ by simply inserting the CAT7/8 into the existing wiring, thus suggesting a resulting noise reduction.

Exactly! I posted this reasoning on the now closed thread on another forum. That maybe some leakage is finding its way to ground through crosstalk.

[fas42]

1 hour ago, opus101 said:

 

Why? You reckon a scope can resolve CM noise differences?

 

Exactly. I would be staggered if anyone ever could bring up a picture on a scope which would definitively say, here's the problem with the loss of SQ, of the types I talk about - a scope is far too low in resolution, unless one goes to extreme lengths to generate a special waveform which was a representation of what was a factor.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

11 hours ago, mansr said:

The intersection if people with scopes and people with fancy cables is rather small.

 

They need to get higher paying jobs to afford those fancy cables ?